Rathergate

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: gistech1978
has it occured to anyone here that the whitehouse, namely karl rove had those memos fabricated themselves so they could decry them as outright forgeries and blame the democrats for playing dirty pool?

Yep...everyone wearing a tinfoil hat has thought of that.

Taken from a post in the Bush, where was he? thread and posted by Perknose.

From a mysterious source, I have conjured up this little video pertaining to the Dub's National Guard service.

http://bushlies2.us/video/rm/tang_questions_cbs_2.rm

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60II/main3475.shtml]

"I know that I didn't type them. However, the information in those is correct."
Marion Carr Knox

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: mflacy
LOL, Frank Abagnale weighed in.

 

[arsbanned]

Isn't it just like a Republican attack machine to go after old ladies.
Link
So evvvvverybody is lying except ol' George and the Repub attack machine. Riiiiiiight.....
Knox told Rather that Killian was "upset" that Bush did not obey his order to have a physical, and she said the young lieutenant showed disregard for the rules to a degree that irritated other pilots.
Huh. All lies, right? Pffffffffffffffffft.
Next?
Knox said the information about Bush in the memos was familiar and that she had typed documents for Killian with similar complaints. She also said the colonel did keep private "cover your back" files.

I know who should be shot and it isn't the media.

I think it's hilarious how the 'cons in here are just giddy that the political process has become a cesspool due to their hero's campaigning "methods". You must be proud. :disgust:

 

[burnedout]

So evvvvverybody is lying except ol' George and the Repub attack machine. Riiiiiiight.....

Let's see here. "See BS" presents documents on TV. People, including professional examiners and typographic experts, question the document's authenticity. "See BS" says no, our people say the docs are authentic. "See BS" experts are then interviewed by seperate news organizations. For some really odd reason, during interviews with other news organizations, these "See BS" experts later doubt the documents are real.

So Rather and "See BS" now begin doubting the documents authenticity themselves. Meanwhile Rather and the happily detached minions of "See BS" then find an old lady who, according to Gary Killian, worked as a pool typist at Ellington AFB and not as LTC Killian's personal secretary. Old lady Knox thinks Bush is bad, therefore the documents are now true.

Based on all the holes in this story, do you actually expect me to believe another news report again? Please.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: burnedout

So evvvvverybody is lying except ol' George and the Repub attack machine. Riiiiiiight.....

Let's see here. "See BS" presents documents on TV. People, including professional examiners and typographic experts, question the document's authenticity. "See BS" says no, our people say the docs are authentic. "See BS" experts are then interviewed by seperate news organizations. For some really odd reason, during interviews with other news organizations, these "See BS" experts later doubt the documents are real.

So Rather and "See BS" now begin doubting the documents authenticity themselves. Meanwhile Rather and the happily detached minions of "See BS" then find an old lady who, according to Gary Killian, worked as a pool typist at Ellington AFB and not as LTC Killian's personal secretary. Old lady Knox thinks Bush is bad, therefore the documents are now true.

Based on all the holes in this story, do you actually expect me to believe another news report again? Please.

At this point the story is now he said/she said story. The only problem is that cbs is only letting one side of the story be heard.

 

[T2T III]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: burnedout

So evvvvverybody is lying except ol' George and the Repub attack machine. Riiiiiiight.....

Let's see here. "See BS" presents documents on TV. People, including professional examiners and typographic experts, question the document's authenticity. "See BS" says no, our people say the docs are authentic. "See BS" experts are then interviewed by seperate news organizations. For some really odd reason, during interviews with other news organizations, these "See BS" experts later doubt the documents are real.

So Rather and "See BS" now begin doubting the documents authenticity themselves. Meanwhile Rather and the happily detached minions of "See BS" then find an old lady who, according to Gary Killian, worked as a pool typist at Ellington AFB and not as LTC Killian's personal secretary. Old lady Knox thinks Bush is bad, therefore the documents are now true.

Based on all the holes in this story, do you actually expect me to believe another news report again? Please.

At this point the story is now he said/she said story. The only problem is that cbs is only letting one side of the story be heard.

And, why is that so? Because CBS refuses to be viewed in a bad light. I don't understand how hard it would be for the network and Dan Rather to make and appology.

I'd like to see how many percentage points Dan Rather drops in the ratings. How much of his past news was manufactured?

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: burnedout
CBS documents traced to Abilene, Texas Kinkos.

Bill Burkett lives near Abilene. Maybe Newsweek is right afterall.

CBS = pwn3d

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

So let's get this straight:

CBS has an old, old to lady to claim anecdotal evidence and hearsay that she remembers from over 30 years ago about the fake memos containing the same content as the "real" memos. Real memos that CBS can't produce, can't even prove existed, and that Killian's son and wife says never existed in the first place. She claims to have been the "personal" secratary of a commader, a Lt. Col. in the Air National Guard. That's strange because my commanders in the Air Force were full bird Colonels in the regular service and even they didn't rate personal secrataries.

Then CBS gives no detractors a voice, presents no contrary opinions, they ask none of the hard questions that are lingering, and Rather glosses over the fact that his entire accusation is based on forgeries.

What next? Is he going to find some little old asian lady who was with Kerry in Cambodia during Christmas? Maybe he can even show us the magic hat. It surely won't be the real magic hat, mind you, but a perfectly good copy of it.

Good lord. I don't think RAthER or the Credibility Been Shattered network has ever sunk so low as this.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

What next? Is he going to find some little old asian lady who was with Kerry in Cambodia during Christmas?

I have a lady friend from Cambodia that remembers Kerry visiting during Christmas.

CBS is welcome to interview her.

























PS:
Just do not point out the fact that she is 34 year old.

 

[1EZduzit]

How amusing this is. She is a credible witness when she says the documents are fact, but when she says the information is what she remembers and speculates that they were typed by someone who had seen the originals. then she isn't a reliable witness anymore. LMAO

What does she have to gain by lying? Why should she put herself in the middle of the fire? I can see no reason for her to come forward except the desire to get the TRUTH to the public.

She was there, shen knows the whole story, but you just can't accept it. The truth about your fearless leader hurts, doesn't it.

I wonder what the documents the white house has suddenly "found" are about?

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Wow, I had no idea there were so many Rather apologists out there...

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Ok disregard the entire CBS story for a moment here. We all know Bush, as a young man, was arrogant and no doubt used his wealth and status to get ahead in life. Do you really think he wasn't dicking around in the Air National Guard? Honestly, we all know he was just killing time in the Air National Guard and he wanted out as soon as possible, why can't you just admit to that. It doesn't affect how I view him today so who the hell really cares?

 

[burnedout]

Message from Dr. Joseph M. Newcomer, a computer typography expert who argues that the "See BS" documents are forged:

[Hat tip: Charles Johnson]

I?ve gotten the requisite amount of hate mail. I just want to make my position clear.

I do not like George Bush. But as I explained to one correspondent, if he had produced a document which Fox claimed to be authentic, which castigated John Kerry for being AWOL the day he was supposed to be on the swiftboat, Brit Hume put his reputation behind it, and it looked like a modern forgery, you can be sure I would have ripped it apart as thoroughly as I have the CBS memos. I know that some people wouldn?t like this, but my view is that if CBS is allowed to get away with forged Bush memos, what other network or print journal would try to get away with forged Kerry memos? And once the media pundits figure out they can lie to us about this, what else can they lie to us about? To me, this has been an issue of journalistic integrity. I don?t often get a chance to make the truth so apparent.

?Dear Wheeler: you provide the prose poems. I?ll provide the war.? Charles Foster Kane.

I?m simply out to defend technology I helped create, and keep it from being used for immoral purposes, such as lying to the public about a Presidential candidate. I admit that a friend of mine who is pro-Bush put me on to this, but I have a lot of pro-Kerry friends, also. And I?m sure that if they had seen a similar anti-Kerry document they would have shared it with me. And had the circumstances been similar, I would have done the same thing.

And to those who have asked, no, Carl Rove hasn?t given me a cent. Neither has anyone else. Nor do I want any money for this. I like the freedom of doing it for nothing. I don?t owe anyone anything, and can say what I think is the truth without accusation of financial motivation.

Joseph M. Newcomer
FlounderCraft Ltd
610 Kirtland St.
Pittsburgh PA 15208

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
Ok disregard the entire CBS story for a moment here. We all know Bush, as a young man, was arrogant and no doubt used his wealth and status to get ahead in life. Do you really think he wasn't dicking around in the Air National Guard? Honestly, we all know he was just killing time in the Air National Guard and he wanted out as soon as possible, why can't you just admit to that. It doesn't affect how I view him today so who the hell really cares?

They just can't bring themselves to admit that their "honorable" leader isn't very "honorable" at all. For someone to even critizise him requires swift and immediate reprisal, by any means available. GWB has gotten elected without his service record ever having ever been much of an issue, but this time he has started a war with Iraq, a war similar to Vietnam and HE started it.

He is sending boys over to be maimed and killed supposedly to find WMD's that were never found, so now it's to "make a democracy". That is what we said we were doing in Vietnam, the very war he claims to have served "honorably" in. The war he says he "voluntered" to go to, but never intended to. He didn't even do his ANG time "honorably" while the less fortunate were dying in Vietnam. 3415 dead from his home state of Texas alone.

It sticks in my craw that we invaded a country and didn't find the WMD's, the main reason the war was supported by the American public in the first place. It seems to me that America has become "the evil empire" and that is why the rest of the world hates Bush. We need a change in direction. I think not finding any WMD's is the main reason you find so many people with the attitude of "anybody but Bush".

 

[DashRiprock]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
So let's get this straight:

CBS has an old, old to lady to claim anecdotal evidence and hearsay that she remembers from over 30 years ago about the fake memos containing the same content as the "real" memos. Real memos that CBS can't produce, can't even prove existed, and that Killian's son and wife says never existed in the first place. She claims to have been the "personal" secratary of a commader, a Lt. Col. in the Air National Guard. That's strange because my commanders in the Air Force were full bird Colonels in the regular service and even they didn't rate personal secrataries.

Then CBS gives no detractors a voice, presents no contrary opinions, they ask none of the hard questions that are lingering, and Rather glosses over the fact that his entire accusation is based on forgeries.

What next? Is he going to find some little old asian lady who was with Kerry in Cambodia during Christmas? Maybe he can even show us the magic hat. It surely won't be the real magic hat, mind you, but a perfectly good copy of it.

Good lord. I don't think RAthER or the Credibility Been Shattered network has ever sunk so low as this.

:beer:

 

[1EZduzit]

Duh truth hurts Duhbya

 

[burnedout]

Seems the "See BS" documents affect the bottom line and viewership too.

The debate over the authenticity of CBS's memos has cost the network's affiliates money and prestige, station general managers told The New York Sun.

The general manager of WCIA-TV in Champaign, Ill., Russ Hamilton, said his station has gotten between 100-125 E-mails "strongly criticizing" the ["60 Minutes II] broadcast. He said advertisers, who have traditionally understood that the networks' news division is something he has no control over, are starting to get upset.

"We have lost a little revenue so far, nothing serious, but if this drags on, I'm not sure what's going to happen," he said. Mr. Hamilton declined to place a dollar figure on his lost advertising, but said the viewer's anger and revenue drop was acceptable "given our dominant position within our market."

KCTV's general manager, Kirk Black, said his station, based in Shawnee Mission, Kan., said he has received about 50 e-mails from viewers, all of which "were clearly angry at CBS, and even us, for the broadcast." He said he had seen "a slight dropoff" in advertising revenue due to the controversy, but nothing we are worried about." He declined to give a dollar figure on lost advertising, but said his concern was prolonging the controversy, where "we - CBS affiliates have to spend more time and energy - defending the judgment of the news division. My job is hard enough."

 

[1EZduzit]

Has the White House released any of those "new" documents yet?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
So let's get this straight:

CBS has an old, old to lady to claim anecdotal evidence and hearsay that she remembers from over 30 years ago about the fake memos containing the same content as the "real" memos. Real memos that CBS can't produce, can't even prove existed, and that Killian's son and wife says never existed in the first place. She claims to have been the "personal" secratary of a commader, a Lt. Col. in the Air National Guard. That's strange because my commanders in the Air Force were full bird Colonels in the regular service and even they didn't rate personal secrataries.

Then CBS gives no detractors a voice, presents no contrary opinions, they ask none of the hard questions that are lingering, and Rather glosses over the fact that his entire accusation is based on forgeries.

What next? Is he going to find some little old asian lady who was with Kerry in Cambodia during Christmas? Maybe he can even show us the magic hat. It surely won't be the real magic hat, mind you, but a perfectly good copy of it.

Good lord. I don't think RAthER or the Credibility Been Shattered network has ever sunk so low as this.

And if we want the truth, just take Dubya at his word? Then let Dubya come out and denounce the documents as lies.

I don't think this lady was looking to get caught in this mess, but since she is she has decided to come forward with the truth as she knows it. Which is a helluva lot more credible then the rest of the bloggers AFAIAC.

 

[CaptnKirk]

So it comes down to this lady who say's that the facts are correct, but it was not she who typed them.
I doubt that she was the only person who ever typed records on that base at that time, she may have
had a day or an afternoon off and some other 'clerk' had to fill in and actually had to type something
that day that she was absent. (maybe partying with Lt. Animal House)
I know of no 'Administrator' who used a secretary as a single point failure to not get a task done.

There is also the chance that the Elves from the Black Forrest, who used to do all the Cobblers
work when he slept, would secretly tunnel into Military Bases in the CONUS with the intent of
re-typing Commander Notes just to add punctuation and correct spelling errors.

Another thing that she mentions is the term of 'Billets' and that it was not used to 'her' knowledge.
I was Active Air Force from 1964 through 1968 - and everywhere I went, Texas to California to Asia
every dormitory for housing enlisted and officer troops that were NOT Base Family Housing were always
refered to as 'Billets' When you arived to sign in for a new assignment before you were given a
permanent 'Billet Assignment' you went to 'Transit Billets' and awaited either transfer or assignment.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Unless this lady was interacting with Bush on a daily/weekly basis, there is a very slight chance that she would remember him.

The CO could have an assigned secretary, but for the ANG, it is doubtful.

Unless this lady actually typed the documents, there should be not reasonable way that she would remember the document. Anything else is hersay or leading the witness at best (as lawyers would state)

As a test, I checked back at my reserve unit from 20+ years ago to see if they could remember me, let alone typing up orders/evaluations.

One assistant was still there, response was who?. And her initials were on a document that she typed when I was requesting a reserve base transfer.

 

[chess9]

EagleKeeper:

Well, I'd agree with all that except for one thing, Bush was the son of a politician. I still remember, 43 years later, a boy who was the son of a governor and who made Pfc out of boot camp notwithstanding his dismal shooting scores and utter lack of leadership abilities. So, I suspect she might remember Bush, particularly since he was the type of guy who got ahead despite having NO TALENT. Some people just stick in your mind like a tar baby.

-Robert

 

[EagleKeeper]

chess9

Agree - She could remember him. To remember details of documents though seems questionable.
It would be more of leading a person memory. She has indicated that it is a third pary rememberance (remembering what she is being asked to remember). Leading the witness.

 

[chess9]

I thought her interview was generally strong, but I suspect she was finessing the docs questions. So, yeah, I agree. (This whole thing is a bit mystifying to me anyway. I'm not sure it matters at all.)

She just kills Bush, BTW. If he doesn't sound like the rich boy whose ***T don't stink, no one does.

-Robert

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
chess9

Agree - She could remember him. To remember details of documents though seems questionable.
It would be more of leading a person memory. She has indicated that it is a third pary rememberance (remembering what she is being asked to remember). Leading the witness.

I can remember many things from those days. I remebered that they had typewriters that did proportional fonts and was pretty sure they could do superscripts, but I wasn't sure about the exact dates.

If GWB was ordered to take a physical and instead just left the base without even having a transfer approved while everyone was snickering about it, then I would think she would have a clear recollection of that. How many people could get away with doing that? It certainly seems out of the ordinary enough to me that she would have no problem remembering it.