Rathergate

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Right. She was there over 30 years ago. And, as well all know, 80+ year olds tend to have perfect recall from way back when

She didn't look 80 in the interview, are you sure she is 80+ years old. Show me the proof please.

I have MS Word. If you give me a few minutes I'm sure I could produce an authentic birth certificate for you.

Gotcha

Anyway. just because she's 80 doesn't mean her memories is bad. Prove she has a bad memory. You can't, can you!! It is just another "feeble" attempt to "kill the messenger".

Inversely, you can't prove she has a good memory either. Seems we're at a statlemate on that particular issue.

I can't prove it, but I didn't try to infer that all 80+ year old people (and you have failed to prove her age) have poor memories. I can watch her on the TV interview and she seems to be perfectly fine to me.

Look at GWB's ANG record. It has gaps in it big enough to drive a Mack truck through. Your the one trying to build a strawman case. Let's see GWB produce some of his comrade-in-arms to back up his version or lacking that, come forward himself and denounce the documents as lies.

http://www.chronwatch.com/cont...ntDisplay.asp?aid=9259

I for one certainly expect a president who is sending troops to their deaths to have enough guts to defend his own military record.

He did. He said he was proud of his service.

He was transfered to the Alabama unit. (see link) He couldn't fly there because of different planes, but he should have went to the drills. He was "required" to go to drills, or make them up 15 days before or 30 days after. If he wasn't going in Alabama, he needed to be going to drills someplace. He wasn't attending drills anyplace. If he was, then prove it.

Transfer to Alabama It finally came thru Sept 15

He signed up for a 6 year commitment on May 27, 1968.

Contract of Service for 6 year hitch

He should have been out in May of 1974, but for some "strange" reason he wasn't "honorably discharged" until November of 1974, an extra 6 months.

Discharged Nov. 21, 1974

I need a little more information from GWB about his service then just saying that "I was proud".

The preponderance of evidence is against him. He seems to have been "missing in action" for 6 months. It is just as simple as that.

''It appears that no one wanted to hold him accountable," Major General Paul A. Weaver Jr., who retired as the Pentagon's director of the Air National Guard in 2002.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Oh and 1ezdunit - I dont' have cable(for the 1000 th time)[note no superscript] so I don't get Fox News. I randomly choose which network to watch if I choose to watch something beside Jim Lehrer.

CsG

I guess you have interent?


http://www.foxnews.com/

It doesn't matter, I was just joking about it anyway

I do not go to Foxnews as I've said multiple times. Their website is not in my rotation of news reading. Sorry to burst your little bubble.


Get the originals blather.



CsG

Tell us the truth GWB. Make a statement, denounce the false documents. Be a man about it. Address the issue head on. Go for it. Fight this terrorism. Blah, blah, blah.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Oh and 1ezdunit - I dont' have cable(for the 1000 th time)[note no superscript] so I don't get Fox News. I randomly choose which network to watch if I choose to watch something beside Jim Lehrer.

CsG

I guess you have interent?


http://www.foxnews.com/

It doesn't matter, I was just joking about it anyway

I do not go to Foxnews as I've said multiple times. Their website is not in my rotation of news reading. Sorry to burst your little bubble.


Get the originals blather.



CsG

Tell us the truth GWB. Make a statement, denounce the false documents. Be a man about it. Address the issue head on. Go for it. Fight this terrorism. Blah, blah, blah.

Like I've repeatedly pointed out to you. Bush wouldn't have seen all of these memos(especially if they are fakes)...but yet you sit here and bleat on and on about how he should denounce them You have become a joke.

Time for blather to ante up the originals.

CsG

 

[1EZduzit]

It doesn't take much intelligence to figure out that he would know if he was ordred to take a physical and didn't. He would know if there were other reasons other then just the failure to take a physical for being grounded.

He can't address those issues by calling those documents lies??

Puhleeese. You are the joke if you can't even admit that he would know those facts.

 

[burnedout]

Retired BG Staudt speaks to ABC:

"I never pressured anybody about George Bush because I had no reason to," Staudt told ABC News in his first interview since the documents were made public.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: burnedout
Retired BG Staudt speaks to ABC:

"I never pressured anybody about George Bush because I had no reason to," Staudt told ABC News in his first interview since the documents were made public.

A family friend of Bush?s father pulled strings to secure Bush?s spot; Bush joined the Texas Air National Guard after his student deferment ran out when he graduated from Yale in 1968. Before he graduated, Bush personally visited Col. Walter ?Buck? Staudt -- the commander of the Texas Air National Guard -- to talk about the Guard. After Bush met with Staudt, he applied and was quickly accepted -- despite a waiting list of over 150 applicants. Staudt recommended Bush for a direct appointment, which allowed Bush to become a second lieutenant right out of basic training without having to go though officer candidate school. The direct appointment also cleared the way for a position in pilot training school. [New York Times, 9/27/99; Houston Chronicle, 10/10/92; Los Angeles Times, 7/4/99]

Although a Bush spokesman claimed Bush was fast-tracked because the Guard needed pilots, Charles C. Shoemake, a chief of personnel in the Texas Guard from 1972 to 1980 remembered no such shortage. ?We had so many people coming in who were super-qualified,? Shoemake said. Texas Guard Historian Tom Hail said there was no apparent need to fast-track applicants. ?I?ve never heard of that,? he said. ?Generally they did that for doctors only, mostly because we needed extra flight surgeons.? [Los Angeles Times, 7/4/99]
Key Unanswered Questions

 

[1EZduzit]

Bush was able to avoid the Vietnam War by entering the Texas Air National Guard at the age of 21 while most inductees were shipped over to Southeast Asia. Bush learned that there were pilot openings in the Texas Air National Guard during Christmas vacation of his senior year at Yale. Two weeks before he was to graduate from Yale, Bush stepped into the offices of the Texas Air National Guard at Ellington Field outside Houston and announced that he wanted to sign up for pilot training. It was May 27, 1968, at the height of the Vietnam War. Bush was 12 days away from losing his student deferment from the draft at a time when Americans were dying in combat at the rate of 350 a week.

Bush had scored only 25 percent on a ?pilot aptitude? test, the lowest acceptable grade. But his father was then a congressman from Houston, and the commanders of the Texas Guard clearly had an appreciation of politics. Bush never placed his name on a waiting list. He did not have to wait. Because of his privileged class status, Molly Ivins (Shrub) wrote that Bush was assigned one of the last two slots in the state. Bush was sworn into the 147th unit on the very day that he applied.

Bush first met with the unit's commander in his Houston office and made his application -- all before his graduation in June from Yale. His records listed no ROTC experience or engineering or aviation experience, which were considered desirable. But the other applicants on the waiting list all had aviation experience of some sort. In his application, Bush cited work experience as summer jobs and part-time employment as a messenger, a ranch hand, an oil field "roustabout," a sporting goods salesman, and a bookkeeper. Nevertheless, Bush was able to become an officer without special training. He was sent to basic training and awarded a special commission, so he instantaneously became a second lieutenant.

Air Force veteran Charles C. Shoemake, who later joined the Texas Air National Guard, said that direct appointments were rare and hard to get and that they required extensive credentials. He said, "I went from master sergeant to first lieutenant based on my three years in college and 15 years as a noncommissioned officer. Then I got considered for a direct appointment. I didn't know whether I was going to get into pilot training."






AVOIDING THE VIETNAM WAR

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Are you calling a sweet, little old man a liar?

 

[1EZduzit]

Meanwhile, a former Texas Air National Guard official who served at the same time as Bush says he thinks the bigger story about gaps in Bush's service is being overlooked in disputes over the validity of certain Guard documents.

"The public ought to be concerned about his preferential treatment getting in and whether he satisfied his commitment to the Air Guard. Those are the two fundamental questions," said Robert Strong, the administrative officer in charge of air operations at Guard state headquarters from early 1971 to March 1972.




The future president joined the Texas Air National Guard in 1968, when he graduated from Yale University. He spent more than a year on active duty learning how to fly and then mostly flew in the one-seat F-102A fighters until April 1972.

The pilot logs show a shift to flights in two-seat trainer jets in March 1972, shortly before Bush quit flying. Former Air National Guard officials say that could have been because F-102A jets were not available for Bush to fly or because of other reasons, such as concerns about his flight performance.

Pentagon ordered to find all o...litary service records

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...itics/main644204.shtml

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Are you calling a sweet, little old man a liar?

You did seem to get awfully quite.

I'm saying what I've been arguing all along. The preponderance of evidence is against Bush. Many, many people agree with me.

Let GWB defend himself if he has the guts. I don't think he can because he has been pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Eye wide shut

Every day in this country, thousands of journalists try hard to earn and keep the trust of their readers, listeners and viewers. Now, with what looks like shoddy reporting on George W. Bush's career in the Texas Air National Guard, anchorman Dan Rather and his colleagues at CBS News have made it harder for all those other journalists to earn and keep trust.

...

The president of CBS News now says the network will "redouble its efforts" to investigate the documents. The time to do that was before the story aired. And some journalists wonder why many Americans think we're biased, arrogant and inaccurate. The burden of proof here was on Rather and Co. If they did ignore warnings from experts, they hurt a lot of honest reporters.

News organizations that relied in part on CBS' story--the Tribune included--put some faith in CBS News' credibility. Only to learn that the network may have had its trademark eye wide shut.

Pony up the docs blather.

CsG

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

I'm a democrat and want to see Bush lose this election, and I believe this attacks on his Guard service (whether they are true or not) are not helping anyone. There is enough firepower to bring Bush down already, we don't need to dig up his 30+ history of substance abuse and skipping out of the Guard.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
I'm a democrat and want to see Bush lose this election, and I believe this attacks on his Guard service (whether they are true or not) are not helping anyone. There is enough firepower to bring Bush down already, we don't need to dig up his 30+ history of substance abuse and skipping out of the Guard.

Well said. I think I've pretty much presented all the facts for anyone who cares to look them up anyway. It's a sure bet that arguing with the "Bushites" is a waste of time, LOL.

I've had enough fun with Bushgate anyway, time for more serious pursuits. Just remember:

PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE is the key, AWOL is the question, and GUILTY IS THE VERDICT.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
I'm a democrat and want to see Bush lose this election, and I believe this attacks on his Guard service (whether they are true or not) are not helping anyone. There is enough firepower to bring Bush down already, we don't need to dig up his 30+ history of substance abuse and skipping out of the Guard.

Well said. I think I've pretty much presented all the facts for anyone who cares to look them up anyway. It's a sure bet that arguing with the "Bushites" is a waste of time, LOL.

I've had enough fun with Bushgate anyway, time for more serious pursuits.

Then don't post in this thread.

Just remember:

PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENC is the key, AWOL is the question, and GUILTY IS THE VERDICT.

Then post it in the other Bush thread. This is about raTHergate - not about "awol".

CsG

 

[burnedout]

The RAthERGATE Chronology

Expanding daily. Stay tuned.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Are you calling a sweet, little old man a liar?

You did seem to get awfully quite.

"Awfully quite" what?

I'm saying what I've been arguing all along. The preponderance of evidence is against Bush. Many, many people agree with me.

Many others disagree with you as well.

Let GWB defend himself if he has the guts. I don't think he can because he has been pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.

Strawman.

 

[burnedout]

Meanwhile, the New York Times publishes some fascinating comments from memo suspect Bill Burkett:

[Hat tip: Tim Blair]

"I spent some time on the phone with the Kerry campaign seniors yesterday," Mr. Burkett wrote on Aug. 21 in an e-mail letter circulated to a list of about 600 Texas Democrats.

"I talked with Max Cleland," Mr. Burkett continued, referring to the former senator from Georgia who has been supporting Senator John Kerry's Democratic presidential bid.

Alluding to advertisements by a veterans group that deprecates Mr. Kerry's Vietnam service, Mr. Burkett continued, "I asked if they wanted to counterattack or ride this to ground and outlast it, not spending any money. He said counterattack."

"So I gave them the information to do it with."

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Strawman.

Talking to yourself again, huh. :laugh: Is that the best you can do??

CBS says they are "certain content is true", so just keep it up with your partisian attacks on Rather and CBS. Your really gaining ground, just ask another Bushite, he'll tell you. hehehe

Watch the video yourself, you can even check out the other links provided by CBS. Maybe they can give you some hints on how to throw mud that actually sticks.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...itics/main644204.shtml


Below quote from this article:

The pilot logs show a shift to flights in two-seat trainer jets in March 1972, shortly before Bush quit flying. Former Air National Guard officials say that could have been because F-102A jets were not available for Bush to fly or because of other reasons, such as concerns about his flight performance.

I wonder if the Pentagon will release any of the missing records, or if they've already been "scrubbed" out of existance?

Documents that should have been written to explain gaps in President Bush's Texas Air National Guard service are missing from the military records released about his service in 1972 and 1973, according to regulations and outside experts.

For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972. The regulations also required commanders to confirm in writing that Bush received counseling after missing five months of drills.

No such records have been made public and the government told The Associated Press in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that it has released all records it can find.

Bush military file lacks required records

Come on GWB, quit hiding and denounce all the allegations as false, if you can, hehe.

Bye, bye Strawmen

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile, the New York Times publishes some fascinating comments from memo suspect Bill Burkett:

[Hat tip: Tim Blair]

"I spent some time on the phone with the Kerry campaign seniors yesterday," Mr. Burkett wrote on Aug. 21 in an e-mail letter circulated to a list of about 600 Texas Democrats.

"I talked with Max Cleland," Mr. Burkett continued, referring to the former senator from Georgia who has been supporting Senator John Kerry's Democratic presidential bid.

Alluding to advertisements by a veterans group that deprecates Mr. Kerry's Vietnam service, Mr. Burkett continued, "I asked if they wanted to counterattack or ride this to ground and outlast it, not spending any money. He said counterattack."

"So I gave them the information to do it with."

Thats in line with other media groups investigating this. Several media groups feel it went from:

Burkett->DNC->Kerry Campaign->CBS

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Strawman.

Talking to yourself again, huh. :laugh: Is that the best you can do??

CBS says they are "certain content is true", so just keep it up with your partisian attacks on Rather and CBS. Your really gaining ground, just ask another Bushite, he'll tell you. hehehe

Watch the video yourself, you can even check out the other links provided by CBS. Maybe they can give you some hints on how to throw mud that actually sticks.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...itics/main644204.shtml


Below quote from this article:

The pilot logs show a shift to flights in two-seat trainer jets in March 1972, shortly before Bush quit flying. Former Air National Guard officials say that could have been because F-102A jets were not available for Bush to fly or because of other reasons, such as concerns about his flight performance.

I wonder if the Pentagon will release any of the missing records, or if they've already been "scrubbed" out of existance?

Documents that should have been written to explain gaps in President Bush's Texas Air National Guard service are missing from the military records released about his service in 1972 and 1973, according to regulations and outside experts.

For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972. The regulations also required commanders to confirm in writing that Bush received counseling after missing five months of drills.

No such records have been made public and the government told The Associated Press in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that it has released all records it can find.

Bush military file lacks required records

Come on GWB, quit hiding and denounce all the allegations as false, if you can, hehe.

Bye, bye Strawmen

Dude go take a fvcking intro to logic course. You are the one arguing illogically. Your argument for Bush to denounce documents he doesnt know about or knows exists is ILLOGICAL.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Yes, the document "experts" opinions are MOOT. None of them can definitively prove anything. And of course neither can CBS. If you want the original documents, go talk to Bill Burkett. I'm sure he can help you out. That is, if he survives all of the death threats he's getting.

Doesn't this bring up a question though? Mainly, if all CBS and Rather have are copies, and there is no method for proven or denying the authenticity of copies, shouldn't journalistic integrity have prevented CBS from airing the 60 Minutes episode in the first place?

Or am I just being silly by assuming CBS and Rather have any sort of journalistic integrity?

Isn't it possible, despite the ability to verify the documents, that CBS has other corroberating evidence to back them up? I mean, they had the old ANG secretary on the air who claimed that the documents weren't typed by her but verified the contents of the memos? News programs and media outlets go to press with stories supported by anonymous sources all the time. Is there any way to verify those stories 100%? I don't think so.

Hell, I'm just as skeptical as anyone about this story, that's why I keep recommending an independent investigation of CBS and how they constructed this story.

Rather nor CBS has come out with evidence supporting the documents. Thats why they are in the mess they are in. Good ole Andy Rooney has apparently jumped ship because he feels they are false and Rather & CBS need to own up to their mistake.

 

[1EZduzit]

Bush could certainly denounce the claims put forward in those documents. He knows if there is more to it then just a missed physical when he was grounded. Let him address that issue instead of hiding behind his attack dogs.

He knows why he had 6 months tacked on to his 6 year ANG commitment. Let's hear the reason why from the horse's mouth.

Why doesn't he just make a statement and clear things up? If everything is on the up and up, what would he have to lose?

 

[ciba]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why doesn't he just make a statement and clear things up? If everything is on the up and up, what would he have to lose?

To me it seems the opposition has enough rope to hang themselves with. Why should Bush clear it up (from a political perspective) when these accusations only make CBS/the Kerry campaign look bad?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Rather nor CBS has come out with evidence supporting the documents. Thats why they are in the mess they are in. Good ole Andy Rooney has apparently jumped ship because he feels they are false and Rather & CBS need to own up to their mistake.

Ask yourself this: Are the memos the ENTIRE story here? Or was there an ongoing investigation wherein CBS conducted interviews and research? Are the memos just ONE element of the story? I'm not trying to say anything definitive (yet), I'm merely raising questions.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: ciba

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why doesn't he just make a statement and clear things up? If everything is on the up and up, what would he have to lose?

To me it seems the opposition has enough rope to hang themselves with. Why should Bush clear it up (from a political perspective) when these accusations only make CBS/the Kerry campaign look bad?

If CBS has been given enough rope to hang themselves, then what is stopping Bush from tightening the noose? I waiting to see what other records have been "found". Since the Pentagon has had them all for some time, I doubt anything new/convincing (one way or the other) will be released.

It does seem rather odd that Bush, a trained pilot, was putting flight time in a two-seater training jet?? I beleive it was Major General Paul Weaver (see sig) who said he wouldn't have let Bush near any of his jets.

The CBS documents are NOT the whole story, anybody with an objective viewpoint can clearly see that. CBS states the decesion to air the story was not based soley on the documents and they continue to stand by the stories content.

It's easy to call Rather a liar, now prove it strawmen.