Rathergate

[Bowfinger]

Burnedout - I haven't seen the video of the story. Perhaps it plays differently than it reads. Based soley on the transcript, however, it seems to me that you and I apply a very different set of filters to assessing this story.

As I understand you, much of your objection is that CBS didn't provide the depth it could have. Certainly I agree they could have provided far more information. They could have talked to several families. They could have offered a mini-tutorial on the workings of Selective Service. They could have done an in-depth analysis of the source(s) of the e-mail. Was it a spontaneous act of concerned parents, or was it planned by Bush's opposition?

From my perspective, that wasn't their intention. This was one piece of a larger story. It was not an in-depth investigative report. They weren't trying to do a comprehensive report on everything surrounding the draft rumors. They were just doing a quick bit to discredit them: hey everyone, there are rumors going around (personalize with a footage of a family because they won't air a story without clips); we've checked on those rumors; everyone denies there's any serious interest in reinstating the draft; on to the next story.

In short, you seem to view it as a story to spread FUD. I saw it as a story to dissipate it. Again, different filters yield different interpretations.

Finally, while I don't see CBS as notably better or worse than average, I do share your overall concerns with the quality of television "journalism" in America. IMO, it's become a joke, a sad parody of its glory days with people like Walter Cronkite. It's all about entertaining viewers with pretty pictures and trite sound bites. They will pick a trivial story with video over an important story without, every time. They wouldn't want to tax us with details and complex ideas.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: burnedout

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Face it, your problem is with anyone who you perceive to disagree with your veiwpoint.

Like it or not, an extended excursion in Iraq may very well necessitate a reinstatement of the draft. Since we have a both sexes in all phases of the armed forces now, the draft would likely include both men and women. The all volunteer system has been working well, but we haven't had much of a need for extended deployments of personnel, especialy in hazordous/battle conditions.

The question is will we get enough volunteers under such conditions? The necessity to extend our current troops deployments and to prevent their timely discharge points to the inescapable conclusion that if Iraq continues to develop into a quagmire, then the draft will need to be put back into place. There really are no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read the writing on the wall.

What the hell is this? "I like to babble horsecrap on da innernet for the sake of seeing it published" day? Or must you perhaps argue specifically to prove your idiocy. Have you lost your farkin' mind?!?!?!?

Selective Service discusses women and the draft relatively at length. Even in WWII, when over 11 million served, was the U.S. reluctant to conscript women. Can you even begin to imagine the outrage in this country if we reached the point when such conscription occured?

No, sorry, I refuse to buy your doomsday fantasies coupled with idiotic BS. Once again, you are dismissed.

From your own link dipstick:

At President Clinton's request, the Department of Defense reviewed this issue in 1994. DoD noted that America's prior drafts were used to supply adequate numbers of Army ground combat troops. Because women are excluded by policy from front line combat positions, excluding them from the draft process remains justifiable in DoD's view. Although no conclusions were reached, DoD recognized that policies regarding women need to be reviewed periodically because the role of women in the military continues to expand.

The Selective Service System, if given the mission and additional funding, is capable of registering and drafting women with its existing infrastructure.

Women are becoming a larger part of our military all the time. One day they refuse to wear their viels, then they want the vote. Next thing you know they'll want to fly jets. :laugh:

Owned again

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

[...]

From your own link dipstick:

At President Clinton's request, the Department of Defense reviewed this issue in 1994. DoD noted that America's prior drafts were used to supply adequate numbers of Army ground combat troops. Because women are excluded by policy from front line combat positions, excluding them from the draft process remains justifiable in DoD's view. Although no conclusions were reached, DoD recognized that policies regarding women need to be reviewed periodically because the role of women in the military continues to expand.

The Selective Service System, if given the mission and additional funding, is capable of registering and drafting women with its existing infrastructure.

Women are becoming a larger part of our military all the time. One day they refuse to wear their viels, then they want the vote. Next thing you know they'll want to fly jets. :laugh:

Owned again

I must admit no surprise in your insistence on ignoring additional literature from the same site:

GAO examined the issue from Selective Service cost and staffing points of view, recognizing that registration of women would require legislative action and operational and budgetary changes. "Selective Service System could register women if its authorizing legislation, the Military Selective Service Act, is amended to allow registering women," the report stated. The report provided cost estimates for expanding the registration program to include women, and included an historical summary providing perspectives on women and the draft since America?s transition to an all-volunteer military in the 1970s.

So aside from requiring legislative action, a USSC verdict must also be overturned. Possible, but unlikely. However, I've suspect that risk analysis is not your proverbial forte either.

Incidentally, you err on the "ownership" issue as well. Adios, Amigo.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Burnedout - I haven't seen the video of the story. Perhaps it plays differently than it reads. Based soley on the transcript, however, it seems to me that you and I apply a very different set of filters to assessing this story.

As I understand you, much of your objection is that CBS didn't provide the depth it could have. Certainly I agree they could have provided far more information. They could have talked to several families. They could have offered a mini-tutorial on the workings of Selective Service. They could have done an in-depth analysis of the source(s) of the e-mail. Was it a spontaneous act of concerned parents, or was it planned by Bush's opposition?

From my perspective, that wasn't their intention. This was one piece of a larger story. It was not an in-depth investigative report. They weren't trying to do a comprehensive report on everything surrounding the draft rumors. They were just doing a quick bit to discredit them: hey everyone, there are rumors going around (personalize with a footage of a family because they won't air a story without clips); we've checked on those rumors; everyone denies there's any serious interest in reinstating the draft; on to the next story.

In short, you seem to view it as a story to spread FUD. I saw it as a story to dissipate it. Again, different filters yield different interpretations.

Finally, while I don't see CBS as notably better or worse than average, I do share your overall concerns with the quality of television "journalism" in America. IMO, it's become a joke, a sad parody of its glory days with people like Walter Cronkite. It's all about entertaining viewers with pretty pictures and trite sound bites. They will pick a trivial story with video over an important story without, every time. They wouldn't want to tax us with details and complex ideas.

Oh, please don't get me wrong. I met Andy Rooney in person and really admire him. Mike Wallace is another of my favorite journalists. Cronkite is a legend, as is Murrow. Some people called Eric Severeid "Mr. Severalsides". However, growing up, I respected and admired him too.

You make a great post and I appreciate that. Lot's of great perspective contained therein.

I've not given up on 'CBS', just venting, as we all do from time to time. Sixty Minutes on Sunday evening is still on my schedule, as is the sports.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: burnedout

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

[...]

From your own link dipstick:

At President Clinton's request, the Department of Defense reviewed this issue in 1994. DoD noted that America's prior drafts were used to supply adequate numbers of Army ground combat troops. Because women are excluded by policy from front line combat positions, excluding them from the draft process remains justifiable in DoD's view. Although no conclusions were reached, DoD recognized that policies regarding women need to be reviewed periodically because the role of women in the military continues to expand.

The Selective Service System, if given the mission and additional funding, is capable of registering and drafting women with its existing infrastructure.

Women are becoming a larger part of our military all the time. One day they refuse to wear their viels, then they want the vote. Next thing you know they'll want to fly jets. :laugh:

Owned again

I must admit no surprise in your insistence on ignoring additional literature from the same site:

GAO examined the issue from Selective Service cost and staffing points of view, recognizing that registration of women would require legislative action and operational and budgetary changes. "Selective Service System could register women if its authorizing legislation, the Military Selective Service Act, is amended to allow registering women," the report stated. The report provided cost estimates for expanding the registration program to include women, and included an historical summary providing perspectives on women and the draft since America?s transition to an all-volunteer military in the 1970s.

So aside from requiring legislative action, a USSC verdict must also be overturned. Possible, but unlikely. However, I've suspect that risk analysis is not your proverbial forte either.

Incidentally, you err on the "ownership" issue as well. Adios, Amigo.

And you think Bush/Cheney couldn't get that done in a heartbeat?? Puhleesse! They have already proven they will do anything for this "unholy" war. Are you unpatriotic??

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

[...]

Are you unpatriotic??

What's with the desperately worded little questions? More humor?

Meanwhile, as we briskly make our way back on topic, this time, Rather's the story.

This time, Rather's the story
News scandal threatens a storied career
By MIKE MCDANIEL
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

In his 54 years as a journalist, 42 under the spotlight of CBS News, Dan Rather has earned a reputation as a hard-working, hard-boiled, hard-hitting and, at times, hard-headed newsman.

It's a reputation he honed here early in his career, working radio and television jobs that would launch him to the national stage.

But he is embroiled today in a journalistic scandal that threatens to ignominiously cap a storied career. . . . .

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: burnedout

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Burnedout - I haven't seen the video of the story. Perhaps it plays differently than it reads. Based soley on the transcript, however, it seems to me that you and I apply a very different set of filters to assessing this story.

As I understand you, much of your objection is that CBS didn't provide the depth it could have. Certainly I agree they could have provided far more information. They could have talked to several families. They could have offered a mini-tutorial on the workings of Selective Service. They could have done an in-depth analysis of the source(s) of the e-mail. Was it a spontaneous act of concerned parents, or was it planned by Bush's opposition?

From my perspective, that wasn't their intention. This was one piece of a larger story. It was not an in-depth investigative report. They weren't trying to do a comprehensive report on everything surrounding the draft rumors. They were just doing a quick bit to discredit them: hey everyone, there are rumors going around (personalize with a footage of a family because they won't air a story without clips); we've checked on those rumors; everyone denies there's any serious interest in reinstating the draft; on to the next story.

In short, you seem to view it as a story to spread FUD. I saw it as a story to dissipate it. Again, different filters yield different interpretations.

Finally, while I don't see CBS as notably better or worse than average, I do share your overall concerns with the quality of television "journalism" in America. IMO, it's become a joke, a sad parody of its glory days with people like Walter Cronkite. It's all about entertaining viewers with pretty pictures and trite sound bites. They will pick a trivial story with video over an important story without, every time. They wouldn't want to tax us with details and complex ideas.

Oh, please don't get me wrong. I met Andy Rooney in person and really admire him. Mike Wallace is another of my favorite journalists. Cronkite is a legend, as is Murrow. Some people called Eric Severeid "Mr. Severalsides". However, growing up, I respected and admired him too.

You make a great post and I appreciate that. Lot's of great perspective contained therein.

I've not given up on 'CBS', just venting, as we all do from time to time. Sixty Minutes on Sunday evening is still on my schedule, as is the sports.

:beer:

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. It's much more interesting than petty sniping.

 

[wiin]

Boston Globe's "expert" on forged documents

hehehe

 

[klah]

http://washingtontimes.com/nat...40929-115839-8751r.htm

29 September 2004

Fifty-two members of Congress yesterday called on the Texas attorney general and a federal prosecutor to investigate the origins of a forged document used by CBS News to question President Bush's service in the National Guard.

Rep. Lamar Smith, Texas Republican, gathered the signatures for a letter that was sent to Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott and U.S. Attorney Richard B. Roper.

The letter noted that the document was given to CBS by Lt. Col. Bill Burkett, a retired Texas Army National Guard officer.

"However, many of the facts and circumstances surrounding the document are unknown," the lawmakers said.

"A crime may have been committed to influence the outcome of a presidential election while our commander in chief leads the war on terror. This is a grave offense that demands the attention of the appropriate law enforcement and investigative authorities.

"Based on the information available about the creation and transmittal of the document, we request an immediate criminal investigation, and prosecution, if warranted."

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Don Hewitt Slams Guard Story

SIOUX FALLS, S.D. (AP) - The creator of "60 Minutes," Don Hewitt, said Thursday he would not have done the story on President Bush's National Guard service that got CBS anchor Dan Rather in so much hot water.

Rather apologized Sept. 20 for a Sept. 8 "60 Minutes" story that cited documents purported to be from one of Bush's commanders in the Texas Air National Guard. Numerous questions have been raised about the documents' authenticity.

Speaking on a South Dakota Public Broadcasting radio show, Hewitt said the story was an old one that had already been dealt with in the 2000 presidential campaign.

"I never would have done the story," said Hewitt, who retired in June as the show's executive producer after 36 years.

"I would have been very wary injecting myself into a campaign. You've got to be very careful that you're not perceived as doing the job that one of the two candidates should be doing himself."

Hewitt, 82, was in Vermillion to receive the 2004 Al Neuharth Award for Excellence in Journalism at the University of South Dakota.

During the radio show, Hewitt said he's sorry that "60 Minutes" and Rather were perceived as doing Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's job for him "by bringing up an old issue, and they weren't careful enough to not make mistakes. And the minute you make one mistake, you're dead."

Hewitt added that it was "stupid" for Kerry to have injected his Vietnam service into the presidential race, which opened the door for anti-Kerry groups such as Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

Not only have previous presidential candidate war veterans avoided such talk, but Kerry had followed up his Vietnam service by becoming an outspoken opponent of the war, he said.

"You can't play war hero if it's about a war where you threw your medals away," Hewitt said.

CsG

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: klah
http://washingtontimes.com/nat...40929-115839-8751r.htm

29 September 2004

Fifty-two members of Congress yesterday called on the Texas attorney general and a federal prosecutor to investigate the origins of a forged document used by CBS News to question President Bush's service in the National Guard.

Rep. Lamar Smith, Texas Republican, gathered the signatures for a letter that was sent to Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott and U.S. Attorney Richard B. Roper.

The letter noted that the document was given to CBS by Lt. Col. Bill Burkett, a retired Texas Army National Guard officer.

"However, many of the facts and circumstances surrounding the document are unknown," the lawmakers said.

"A crime may have been committed to influence the outcome of a presidential election while our commander in chief leads the war on terror. This is a grave offense that demands the attention of the appropriate law enforcement and investigative authorities.

"Based on the information available about the creation and transmittal of the document, we request an immediate criminal investigation, and prosecution, if warranted."

Smith Commends President Bush For Economic Prosperity

Smith Commends President Bush For Economic Prosperity



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For years the Misery Index has measured the good or bad impact of the economy on everyday Americans.

The Misery Index is the combination of the unemployment rate and the inflation rate.

President George W. Bush has the lowest Misery Index of any president seeking re-election in thirty years.

The Misery Index average under President Bush is only 7.3%.

Over 1.7 million jobs have been created in just the past year.

President Bush?s initiatives have given Americans economic growth, and a freer and more secure country.

Given President Bush?s good record on the economy, maybe we should give him credit for a ?Prosperity Index?.

LOL! This guy is a joke, just like the canidate he supports.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Don Hewitt Slams Guard Story

CsG

Excellent analysis. Don Hewitt knows what he's talking about. After 36 years with "60 Minutes", he should.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: burnedout

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Don Hewitt Slams Guard Story

CsG

Excellent analysis. Don Hewitt knows what he's talking about. After 36 years with "60 Minutes", he should.

Hewitt laments the outbreaks of terrorist attacks that have occurred since the U.S. invaded Iraq 13 months ago. "If I should hold anything against George Bush," Hewitt said, it was that the invasion "created more terrorists."

Hewitt was careful to stress that he had no Democratic or liberal political leanings. "I don't vote parties," he said. "I'm an Eisenhower-Reagan Republican and a Roosevelt-Kennedy Democrat."


Don Hewitt, the executive producer and creator of the CBS news magazine "60 Minutes," says he is leaning toward voting for presidential candidate John Kerry.

Edit:

And just exactly how the hell do these comments by Hewitt pertain to this particular debate? Nice strawman. Once again, you are dismissed. You may go now.

It's just more proof that Hewitt knows what he's talking about. We agree! Now your dismissed

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

And just exactly how the hell do these comments by Hewitt pertain to this particular debate? Nice strawman. Once again, you are dismissed. You may go now.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: burnedout

I've not given up on 'CBS', just venting, as we all do from time to time. Sixty Minutes on Sunday evening is still on my schedule, as is the sports.

Looks like this thread lost it's sticky, maybe on purpose since it seems pretty clear that Rather is not resigning nor going to be fired which is dissapointing.

We don't hold anyone in this Country accountable or to any standards higher than a sewer line.

 

[Chadder007]

Don't worry....i think he is going on his way out next summer anyway in retirement.

 

[burnedout]

Arlington General tosses "CBS" News in the brig - Dallas Observer

[Hat tip: Charles Johnson]

Hodges, 74, who retired from the Texas Air National Guard in 1989 and lives in Arlington, says he was first contacted by CBS on the evening of September 6, two days before the 60 Minutes broadcast. Hodges says that during a telephone conversation 60 Minutes producer Mary Mapes read him small excerpts from the memos, among them portions relating to Bush's missed physical. "I said, 'Yes, I remember talking about his physical, that he missed his physical,'" Hodges says. "Everybody knew he missed his physical...I agreed that we had talked about the physical, which gave her authority to say that I authenticated all four memos."

Mapes also read Hodges portions from a May 1972 memo relating to Bush's missed drills: "Phone call from Bush," reads the purported Killian memo. "Discussed options of how Bush can get out of coming to drill from now through November." Hodges says he confirmed to Mapes that Bush was gone from May to November 1972 to work on a campaign in Alabama, and that officers in the Guard discussed it and gave him permission to go.

But when he realized CBS cast his confirmation of contemporaneous conversations as document authentication, he protested. In a September 12 article, The Dallas Morning News quoted CBS News anchorman Dan Rather stating that CBS offered to show Hodges the documents. "We wanted to take the documents to him and do an interview, and he declined to do that," Rather said, adding that Hodges "said that the documents were--quote--familiar to him, and that Killian did indeed feel the way that the documents expressed."

But what astounded him, he says, was that neither Rather nor Mapes probed further. "Neither one of them, neither Dan Rather nor Mary Mapes...they never asked me why I thought they were not authentic," he says. "I can tell you 21 reasons why I think that. It has nothing to do with typewriters or spacing or anything like that. It's just strictly the verbiage in those four memos."

Meanwhile, Mary, Mary, quite pro-Kerry "can't"

CBS News didn't return calls for comment, and Mapes declined to discuss Hodges' charges. "I can't, I just can't," she says.

 

[Ornery]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: burnedout

I've not given up on 'CBS', just venting, as we all do from time to time. Sixty Minutes on Sunday evening is still on my schedule, as is the sports.

Looks like this thread lost it's sticky, maybe on purpose since it seems pretty clear that Rather is not resigning nor going to be fired which is dissapointing.

We don't hold anyone in this Country accountable or to any standards higher than a sewer line.

Not only lost its sticky, but actually had a goddamn lock on it! I was starting to wonder if the mods here are as partisan as CBS. Lord knows the issue ain't dead yet!

Edit Sorry mods, my mistake. That wasn't a lock, but a clock!

 

[burnedout]

CBS affiliate calls for RAthER's ouster - The Charlotte Observer

?I strongly believe that Mr. Rather should have been suspended pending the conclusions and recommendations of the independent review panel,?
MARY MACMILLAN, WBTV?s vice president and general manager

The general manager of Charlotte?s WBTV, one of the South?s largest and oldest CBS affiliates, has called on the network to suspend Dan Rather.

In an e-mail to network executives, Channel 3?s Mary MacMillan said she believed the anchor of the ?CBS Evening News? should be taken off the air until an investigation is resolved into the documents used in a report about President Bush?s military service.

She also said CBS should suspend Andrew Heyward, president of the news division, and Mary Mapes, the producer of the ?60 Minutes? segment, until the inquiry is finished.

Looks like this thread lost it's sticky, maybe on purpose since it seems pretty clear that Rather is not resigning nor going to be fired which is dissapointing.

No worries, Dave. Just like "Oil-for-Fools", along with many others, this baby ain't going away.

 

[burnedout]

Puff piece from the Washington Post about the left's latest poster girl - Mary "Mary, Quite Pro-Kerry" Mapes.

Excerpts:

[...]

"I'm really ashamed of my daughter, what she's become," said Don Mapes, who had a falling-out with his daughter years ago for undisclosed reasons. "She went into journalism with an ax to grind, that is, to promote feminism -- and radical feminism, I might say -- and liberalism."

[...]

Who exactly is to blame? CBS is taking no action until the investigation is completed, and that's not expected to happen for weeks. But many CBS News staffers, including veterans, have quietly made up their minds: They are furious with Mapes, think that she has badly damaged the network, and they are upset that she has not been suspended at the very least. Those staffers, however, have repeatedly declined to voice their opinions on the record, citing the network's request that the situation not be discussed publicly while the investigation is underway.

Meanwhile, the Wall Street Journal offers still more insight into this example of dangerously subversive liberalism:

Former employees of KIRO, the CBS affiliate in Seattle where Ms. Mapes got her start in the 1980s, agree. Some told me that the seeds of CBS's current troubles may have been planted more than 15 years ago when Ms. Mapes was a hard-charging producer at KIRO. Before she left Seattle to become a producer at Mr. Rather's "CBS Evening News," Ms. Mapes produced a sensational report on a killing of a drug suspect by police that rested on the shoulders of an unreliable source whose story collapsed under cross-examination. Sound familiar?

Former colleagues of Ms. Mapes agree that she was a passionate practitioner of advocacy journalism. "She went into journalism to change society," says former KIRO anchorwoman Susan Hutchison. "She always was very, very cause-oriented." Lou Guzzo, a former KIRO news commentator who served as counselor to the late Gov. Dixy Lee Ray, a Democrat, says advocates in journalism are fine, "but if you're as liberal and activist as Mary and work on the news rather than the opinion side, it creates problems."

:Q

"The pen is mightier than sword, especially in the hand of an irresponsible liberal" - author unknown

 

[1EZduzit]

NBC's Tom Brokaw and ABC's Peter Jennings didn't shy away from the Rather controversy. They pointed out that mistakes had been made in the reporting of what are apparently faked documents from Bush's then-superior officer but said it wasn't fair to single out Rather and CBS News for ulterior motives.

"I don't think you ever judge a man by only one event in his career," Jennings said to heavy applause.

Brokaw railed against the attempt by some -- particularly Internet bloggers, who were among the first critics -- for a "kind of political jihad against Dan Rather and CBS News."

He added, "It's certainly an attempt to demonize CBS News ... and it goes beyond any factual information."

Rivals Rally to Rather's Side

 

[klah]

Michael Moore: I Was Offered Memogate Documents

Michael Moore, director of the movie Farenheit 9/11, said Sunday that he was given the same phony documents used by CBS News in its infamous Sept. 8 "60 Minutes" story but that he rejected them for inclusion in his film because his staff did not believe they were authentic.

"Back when I was making Fahrenheit, I was offered the same documents that were given to CBS but I didn't use them because we couldn't verify them," Moore said following a speech at the University of Central Arkansas.

 

[burnedout]

"See BS" says probe results unlikely until after election - Reuters via Yahoo

CBS Says Probe Results Unlikely Until After Election

2 hours, 57 minutes ago

By Martha Graybow

NEW YORK (Reuters) - An external review of how CBS News came to use disputed documents in a report on President Bush (news - web sites)'s military record will probably not be concluded until after the November election so as not to interfere with the presidential race, a top executive said on Tuesday. . . . .

So WTF were these idiots attempting before the election?

 

[wiin]

It's not gonna be until after the election because should the collusion between CBS and the kerry campaign comes out now, it would be devastating to kerry. And we don't want that. After all the purpose
is to protect cbs and the kerry campaign.

 

[EXman]

Originally posted by: wiin
It's not gonna be until after the election because should the collusion between CBS and the kerry campaign comes out now, it would be devastating to kerry. And we don't want that. After all the purpose
is to protect cbs and the kerry campaign.

There already has been collusion the senior Edit under Rather called Mr Lockhart from Kerrys campaign (After he came in for damage control) to set up Burkett and Lockhart to talk about what to do with the "Files." She has not been fired cause she knows were the bodies are buried for CBS I suppose.

True they are trying to insulate Kerry by not reporting.