Really old thread somebody bumped.

[fstime]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Overall I'd say they were unacceptable for a third rate discounter who was bankrupt. I had less problems using 3dfx parts after they went out of business then I have running ATi. I bring up Sacrifice as it is a bug they have known about for YEARS and refuse to do anything about- 'we got your money- fvck you' has been the summation of their attempts at dealing with the issue. If a major site or print publication doesn't bash them for an issue they will not do anything to fix it- there is nothing like any other company that has ever been in the 3D market- ATi is hands down the poorest in the industry by a long shot.

What a load of crap, and you're an idiot to even suggest it. You hang on Sacrifice like its a freakin' matter of life or death, good gawd BenSkywalker you are nothing more than a laughable fanboi anymore...shame.

I have to agree with you, after using both Nvidia's and ATi's drivers, both are excellent.


ATi's driver problems have been long forgoten since the 9xxx cards, and we all know what happened during that time.

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: rbV5

But its not me making them sound bad.. complain to Anand and make him edit out the fact that they dont display above 1600x1200 properly maybe?

I run my X800 XL at 1920x1080 analog and other custom 1080i resolutions routinely with my X800XL, and have for months with stock or otherwise Catalyst drivers. Something my 6800 standard would never sync using Forceware drivers or Powerstrip, several driver revisions, and several months trying......so, YMMV is the rule. Talk to people that actually routinely use resolutions above 1600x1200 using Nvidia or ATI hardware and you could make a good claim for both camps not displaying above 1600x1200 "properly" in many cases (and below 1600x1200 for that matter)

NV40 driver support was pretty good from the launch, but there were definately issues, not to even mention hardware issues that were never resolved, same with my Nforce2 Motherboards. I wouldn't say Nvidia driver support was poor in either case, pretty good actually all in all.

My ATI X800 XL has had few issues I can recall over the past few months with testing several driver revisions: a sturdy, great piece of hardware right out of the box. Same with my RS480 ATI motherboard. ATI's most recent hardware has pretty good driver support along with decent, usable feature sets.

Lets be realistic here.

I'm not saying you are wrong. But I am saying that I, and anyone else here should go with Anands experiences with the above 1600x1200 bug over your word. Not trying to be snide. When I used ATI I never used over 1600x1200 on analog, so I have not experienced this firsthand.
All the other bugs I listed are some of many more I experienced.

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Overall I'd say they were unacceptable for a third rate discounter who was bankrupt. I had less problems using 3dfx parts after they went out of business then I have running ATi. I bring up Sacrifice as it is a bug they have known about for YEARS and refuse to do anything about- 'we got your money- fvck you' has been the summation of their attempts at dealing with the issue. If a major site or print publication doesn't bash them for an issue they will not do anything to fix it- there is nothing like any other company that has ever been in the 3D market- ATi is hands down the poorest in the industry by a long shot.

What a load of crap, and you're an idiot to even suggest it. You hang on Sacrifice like its a freakin' matter of life or death, good gawd BenSkywalker you are nothing more than a laughable fanboi anymore...shame.

I dont intend to get inbetween this war of two old veterans around here.. but, Sacrifice ruled.

And I dont know the story on that one (i was using a GF2 GT or GF3 dont remember).. but I could rattle off way, way more major ATI driver issues that I know about since the Rage days than I could NV's entire history.. its not comparable and I am sorry to report that news.
And today is what I am concerned about.. and its not up to par, I illustrated that fairly well and could continue.. but those who can be swayed probably dont need the complete run down.. that would just be knife in the heart to the ATI devotees around these parts.


But on Sacrifice, if it had major problems.. that is completely legitimate, people shouldnt denegrade one mans problems.. that game is just as important as any other at the time.. in fact it was a sleeper hit in my book.. if ATI didnt make sure their stuff worked with it.. they alienated a large group of gamers.

Thats the risk ATI was willing to take.. and now unfortunately Ben appears to be one of those that gambled on ATI products and their poor support.

You get disgruntled customers when you do not support your product. It would take a moron to know that ATI has vastly inferior support compared to Nvidia and still buy their products.
We are supposed to know better than that.

The only way I'd buy ATI is if the R300 days returned.. they'd have to have MASSIVE performance advantages for me to purchase from them. Yes I had a 9800 Pro.
Outdated SM2 cards are not my bag in 2005 though. Or dongled up ALI powered "crossfire".

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Overall I'd say they were unacceptable for a third rate discounter who was bankrupt. I had less problems using 3dfx parts after they went out of business then I have running ATi. I bring up Sacrifice as it is a bug they have known about for YEARS and refuse to do anything about- 'we got your money- fvck you' has been the summation of their attempts at dealing with the issue. If a major site or print publication doesn't bash them for an issue they will not do anything to fix it- there is nothing like any other company that has ever been in the 3D market- ATi is hands down the poorest in the industry by a long shot.

What a load of crap, and you're an idiot to even suggest it. You hang on Sacrifice like its a freakin' matter of life or death, good gawd BenSkywalker you are nothing more than a laughable fanboi anymore...shame.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you an ATI beta tester that's pretty closely associated with Rage3D?

As far as Sacrifice goes, how many ATI fans pimped TR:AOD when it was the only DX9 game out, and that's not even a good game? Or HL2 a year before it's release?

Ben is more knowledgeable than most here, what he has to say I want to read. Most of us could learn from him.

 

[BenSkywalker]

What a load of crap, and you're an idiot to even suggest it. You hang on Sacrifice like its a freakin' matter of life or death, good gawd BenSkywalker you are nothing more than a laughable fanboi anymore...shame.

A 'fanboi' of whom exactly?

If I were to go around and start talking out my @ss about how great nV's vid en/decode hardware was what would you say? You *should* be all over that statement as it is misleading and could lead people to drop a whole lot of money on hardware that does not work as advertised.

You know what the last piece of nVidia hardware I purchased new was? A GeForceDDR within a couple of weeks of them hitting the market.

BTW- Know of any ATi drivers that render the magic in FFXI properly whenever it is used? That has been the latest bug that has been annoying the hell out of me with the oh so stellar ATi drivers- tried four different revisions to date and haven't had any luck.

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: dfloyd
The chances of Nvidia dropping their prices quickly on the 7800 to increase Market share are about as likely as George Bush admitting he lied about why he chose to go to war. Its not going to happen.

Well it's all staged warfare anyway. If one truely researches the NWO, Illuminati, and the numerology related to historical dates and events; one will start to realize that something much bigger is being carried out and that nothing really is coincidental. Not to get off topic, but it's something I'd thought I should mention.

 

[BFG10K]

I bring up Sacrifice as it is a bug they have known about for YEARS and refuse to do anything about

This again? Wow. Again I'll ask you Ben, have you tried this game on a modern nVidia card (i.e. NV4x)?

But on Sacrifice, if it had major problems.. that is completely legitimate, people shouldnt denegrade one mans problems..

You don't want me to start listing all of the driver problems I've had with nVidia on a 6800U. We could start with the DEP problem which caused system reboots for about six months in a number of TWIMTBP titles.

Does ATi have driver problems? Sure. Their custom resolution and refresh rate support for example is absolutely attrocious compared to nVidia's. But to claim nVidia doesn't have driver problems is foolish.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Again I'll ask you Ben

And yet again I'll answer you- IT WORKS FINE. My apologies for the caps- but I've told you this numerous times already. Haven't checked it out on a 7800GTX yet, but up to and including the 6800GT all was well.

We could start with the DEP problem which caused system reboots for about six months in a number of TWIMTBP titles.

Six months- I'm talking years here.

But to claim nVidia doesn't have driver problems is foolish.

Point me to anywhere ever that I have said anything remotely resembling that. You can't, because I haven't. Big difference between ATi and nVidia- I have yet to ever hear of a driver bug hanging around in a nV driver for years- for that matter I have yet to hear of a driver sticking around that long in ANY other companies graphics card ever. If there is one, I'd like to know about it.

 

[BFG10K]

My apologies for the caps- but I've told you this numerous times already.

I don't think I ever recall that. If you have mentioned it before I apologise as I must've missed it.

Six months- I'm talking years here.

Which is worse? System reboots causing file corruption when playing modern games or a few visual artifacts in an ancient game?

I have yet to ever hear of a driver bug hanging around in a nV driver for years

Broken S3TC (not exactly a driver bug I know but still a hardware problem). Present on the GF, GF2 and GF3 series and finally fixed in the GF4 series.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: rbV5

Overall I'd say they were unacceptable for a third rate discounter who was bankrupt. I had less problems using 3dfx parts after they went out of business then I have running ATi. I bring up Sacrifice as it is a bug they have known about for YEARS and refuse to do anything about- 'we got your money- fvck you' has been the summation of their attempts at dealing with the issue. If a major site or print publication doesn't bash them for an issue they will not do anything to fix it- there is nothing like any other company that has ever been in the 3D market- ATi is hands down the poorest in the industry by a long shot.

What a load of crap, and you're an idiot to even suggest it. You hang on Sacrifice like its a freakin' matter of life or death, good gawd BenSkywalker you are nothing more than a laughable fanboi anymore...shame.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you an ATI beta tester that's pretty closely associated with Rage3D?

As far as Sacrifice goes, how many ATI fans pimped TR:AOD when it was the only DX9 game out, and that's not even a good game? Or HL2 a year before it's release?

Ben is more knowledgeable than most here, what he has to say I want to read. Most of us could learn from him.

I've had the opportunity to test hardware and software from different manufacturers and publishers (including Nvidia btw) which includes beta testing for ATI. I'm an enthusiast, and I've been approached in every case. I'm also a somewhat irregular poster both here and Rage3D amoungst other enthusiast sites. I have posted on issues from both camps from my personal experience.

I'm also a customer of both Nvidia and ATI, both software and hardware products including motherboard chipsets, graphic card chips/cards, TV tuner cards and multimedia software. In the past year, my ATI product purchases from ATI or partners include X800 XL, Sapphire Theatrix TV card, ATI HDTV Wonder and an MSI RS480 motherboard. My Nvidia based purchases (also in the past year) include a 6800 standard and ASUS Nforce2 motherboard(s) and NV DVD decoder.

While Ben may be knowlegable, he's completely over the top in his myopic, redundant rhetoric, which trumps his sometimes inspired posting (getting much rarer these days). The end result is lengthy winded tirades on some mundane point, or some issue he knows damn well isn't going to get fixed unless the developer fixes it (The Sacrifice engine issue is not getting fixed for ATI hardware by ATI Ben...end of story), and a flamefest for a thread.

ATI at worst has the second best driver support for graphics cards, and in many cases perhaps the best. Statements like

ATi is hands down the poorest in the industry by a long shot.

makes it easy to file his commentary in the proper place at least:roll:

 

[BenSkywalker]

Which is worse? System reboots causing file corruption when playing modern games or a few visual artifacts in an ancient game?

I've had more then my fair share of reboots running ATi also(and VPU recover- that is a rather comical farce) but those are issues that seem to get resolved in a reasonable timeframe(within a year).

Broken S3TC (not exactly a driver bug I know but still a hardware problem). Present on the GF, GF2 and GF3 series and finally fixed in the GF4 series.

It was never broken- it just sucked.

The Sacrifice engine issue is not getting fixed for ATI hardware by ATI Ben...end of story

I know it isn't, it would require the removal of some interesting bandwidth saving techniques that would hurt them too much in benches. That is why I stated to use app detection(or allow users to disable all optimizations).

ATI at worst has the second best driver support for graphics cards

I'm sure 3DLabs, SGi, HP and IBM would all love to hear how you came to that conclusion. I would be interested to know of any year plus lasting bugs in Intel's or S3's drivers for that matter. Edit- Forgot Matrox who whips ATi in driver support also.

 

[QueBert]

question, aside from the custom resolution/refresh issues what's wrong with ATI drivers?

I might be going out on a limb here, but if a game doesn't work with my card, shouldn't I put at least some blame on the maker of the game? I can't expect ATI to make their drivers 100% with 100% of games released.


I've never had a problem with my card in any game. No, I don't play a lot of games, but I've played enough to where I can safely say ATI has great drivers *shrug*

 

[imported_g33k]

Originally posted by: QueBert
question, aside from the custom resolution/refresh issues what's wrong with ATI drivers?

I might be going out on a limb here, but if a game doesn't work with my card, shouldn't I put at least some blame on the maker of the game? I can't expect ATI to make their drivers 100% with 100% of games released.


I've never had a problem with my card in any game. No, I don't play a lot of games, but I've played enough to where I can safely say ATI has great drivers *shrug*

You already mentioned the the refresh rate and resolution issue. nV also has better dual monitor support. In my experience nV has better OGL support. Wolfenstien would stutter badly on my 9800pro, doom 3 would crash. ATi eventually fixed the problems. But it took almost a year later in the case of wolfenstien.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: g33k

Originally posted by: QueBert
question, aside from the custom resolution/refresh issues what's wrong with ATI drivers?

I might be going out on a limb here, but if a game doesn't work with my card, shouldn't I put at least some blame on the maker of the game? I can't expect ATI to make their drivers 100% with 100% of games released.


I've never had a problem with my card in any game. No, I don't play a lot of games, but I've played enough to where I can safely say ATI has great drivers *shrug*

You already mentioned the the refresh rate and resolution issue. nV also has better dual monitor support. In my experience nV has better OGL support. Wolfenstien would stutter badly on my 9800pro, doom 3 would crash. ATi eventually fixed the problems. But it took almost a year later in the case of wolfenstien.

I ran Wolfenstein just fine on a Radeon 9500, and played Doom 3 without issue on the same card. There's not much difference between a 9800 and a 9500 architecturally. It could have easily been something else with your system.

 

[nitromullet]

Talking about drivers... nVidia needs to fix this issue with transparent SSAA in HL2. Hopefully, they will have this done before HL2 Aftermath comes out.

 

[Pete]

Er, back to the process issues:

1. AFAIK, MS is using the same facility for part of Xenos/C1 (the EDRAM+ROPs part is fabbed by NEC?) that ATI is using for all of R520 (and derivatives): TMSC. So, on the ones hand, we've heard that apparently they're getting better-than-expected yields on 500MHz C1s. OTOH, we hear and see (no cards) that they appear to be having trouble with R520, but I'm still not clear on whether it's an issue of yields/speed, or a more fundamental problem.

2. I'm still hearing persistent rumors that R520 will be 16 pipes/ROPs but with other enhancements, the latest being 3 texturing units. This brings to mind X800 disinformation (8 "extreme" pipes) and R100 (3 TMUs) or NV30 (four "extreme" pipes with two TMUs per) zaniness. So, not so encouraging, given the parallels to other less-than-outstanding debuts in 3D history.

3. Enough with the freaking IHV taunting, already. Cripes!

So, the good: ATI seems to be able to produce at least one fairly complex card at 90nm. The bad: R520's MIA status brings back not-so-fond memories of past (delayed) cards, and nV's half-step stumble when working on Xbox. The ugly: repeated, repetitive, tangential trash-talking and solitary examples as proof of overarching incompetence (though I agree that small things, like the map-load flickering in ET when AA is forced, are annoying, I haven't encountered many show-stoppers in my rather limited experience with either IHV--and that includes an Xpert 128).

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: QueBert
question, aside from the custom resolution/refresh issues what's wrong with ATI drivers?

I might be going out on a limb here, but if a game doesn't work with my card, shouldn't I put at least some blame on the maker of the game? I can't expect ATI to make their drivers 100% with 100% of games released.


I've never had a problem with my card in any game. No, I don't play a lot of games, but I've played enough to where I can safely say ATI has great drivers *shrug*

Play the original call of duty when it came out? It only took ATi, what? 5 driver revisions to fix it?

 

[Ackmed]

Saying ATi's drivers are worse than NVs by a long shot, is nothing short of idiotic.

Acathus, it took NV several months to put out an official driver to fix the "make your PC reboot" bug in Flatout.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Pete-

So, the good: ATI seems to be able to produce at least one fairly complex card at 90nm.

Which one? MS has control of the R500.

The ugly: repeated, repetitive, tangential trash-talking and solitary examples as proof of overarching incompetence

If the lies would stop then I'd have no problem dropping it- but people spend money based on comments in these threads and they may get ripped off expecting something not even close to what is offered. nV got trashed and royally by a large group of this board when their video hardware wasn't working properly on their NV4x parts and rightly so- we don't have a bunch of people pretending that it is useable although we do have a lot of people right now pretending that ATi's drivers are class leading which is laughable at best.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: southpawuni
I'm open to hear what I'm wrong on though.

I'll grant you, ATI has decent workable drivers.. to some extent.
But its not me making them sound bad.. complain to Anand and make him edit out the fact that they dont display above 1600x1200 properly maybe?

You cannot hide the truth just because you do not like it.

Apparently you also missed THIS article

ATi definately has better 2D quality than Nvidia, and especially at higher resolutions. Maybe there is a specific problem for running ATI cards in BF2 above 1600x1200, but you make it sound like it is for all games.

"World of Warcraft - WOW, infamous WOW. Since I had approximately five hours to kill before my queue for Battle Grounds, I took the opportunity to take the display at 1920x1200 through Stratholme (all of it). Gaming at a resolution like this really doesn't get any better; for the first time, I feel like I finally have enough space to lay out all of the icons, and the X800 Pro is more than enough to keep up the FPS just fine." - anandtech

It's just that above 1600x1200 analog generally looks worse than digital, regardless of ATI or Nvidia. If you realize that both look crap compared to digital, I am not really concenred that one is crap and the other is even more crap.

--------------------------------

And it is those same "crappy" ATi drivers that actually allow video hardware acceleration and for 3 year old X800 tech to outperform 7800GTX, right? Windows Media HD Video Playback

HOw about all those skipped frames by 6800 series in "Step into Liquid" thread?

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Line them up against their comparable nVidia parts and only the X850 is looking very good. The X800XL was looking very strong at $100 less then a 6800GT, but at $5 less it looks pretty weak. ATi's lineup right now is extremely weak overall, only their top tier board fairs decently against nV's soon to be dropped second tier part- they need to get their new line out the door ASAP.

9800Pro for $120> 6600
X800 PCIe for $152 > 6600GT (and there are many more x800s for low $150/160)
ATI has no real competitor to 6800nu AGP.
X800XL PCIe is $249 at monarch vs. $340 for the cheapest 6800GT PCIe
X800XL AGP is $318 vs. $280 for 6800GT (not too bad) - overall tie between these 2 since one is better for AGP, one for PCIe
X800XT AGP is $358, X800XT AIW AGP $330, x850xt platinum is $399 AGP - all are faster than 6800Ultra AGP for $420.
X850XT PCIe for $439 and X850xt platinum PCIe for $474 are again faster than 6800Ultra PCIe for $490.
Nvidia has no competitors to ATI's AIW lineup on any level
So whats your point again?

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Saying ATi's drivers are worse than NVs by a long shot, is nothing short of idiotic.

Acathus, it took NV several months to put out an official driver to fix the "make your PC reboot" bug in Flatout.

I still havent picked up that game, ive been meaning to

What was the issue exactly? random restarts? or did you have to do some specific setting combination to make it happen?

 

[nitromullet]

...Apparently you also missed THIS article

ATi definately has better 2D quality than Nvidia...

Apparently, you haven't seen a 7800GTX in action. Stellar 2D IQ. I never had a chance to compare my 6800GT to an X8x0 series card, but even then, the 2D IQ had been improved over the FX card I had owned. The 7800GTX is even better.

9800Pro for $120> 6600
X800 PCIe for $152 > 6600GT (and there are many more x800s for low $150/160)
ATI has no real competitor to 6800nu AGP.
X800XL PCIe is $249 at monarch vs. $340 for the cheapest 6800GT PCIe
X800XL AGP is $318 vs. $280 for 6800GT (not too bad) - overall tie between these 2 since one is better for AGP, one for PCIe
X800XT AGP is $358, X800XT AIW AGP $330, x850xt platinum is $399 AGP - all are faster than 6800Ultra AGP for $420.
X850XT PCIe for $439 and X850xt platinum PCIe for $474 are again faster than 6800Ultra PCIe for $490.
Nvidia has no competitors to ATI's AIW lineup on any level
So whats your point again?

Conveniently, you have left out the 7800GTX and SLI. I guess you don't want to draw any attention to the levels that ATI is not able to compete at all. Incidently, which is what this thread is really about...

So, let's add this to your little comparison:

7800GTX @ ~$550-600 > ?
SLI for 6600GT, 6800/GT/Ultra, 7800GTX @ ~$350-1200 > CrossFire!?! When is this going to become available? it has been "launched" since Computex, but neither motherboards, video cards, nor even reputable benchmarks have yet to surface...

Don't even try to act like these segemnts aren't important. If they weren't, ATI wouldn't have bothered to "launch" CrossFire on their website, and I assure that ATI would have launched R520 if it was anywhere within the rhealm of possibility at the moment.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation
X800XT AGP is $358, X800XT AIW AGP $330, x850xt platinum is $399 AGP - all are faster than 6800Ultra AGP for $420.
X850XT PCIe for $439 and X850xt platinum PCIe for $474 are again faster than 6800Ultra PCIe for $490.
Nvidia has no competitors to ATI's AIW lineup on any level
So whats your point again?

Hardly. X800XTs and X850XTs are not faster than 6800Us, at everything.

Not faster at upcoming FEAR

Tied at BF2, each wins 2
And this is a X850XT PE, not a slower X800XT, X850XT?

Not faster at Riddick

Not faster at Doom3

Mixed bag on Pacific Fighters

Now before you go posting the ATI lovers favorite benchmarks by the ATI lovin' XBit, don't waste your time. I think we all know that ATIs optomizations for AF are more efficient and at 16XAF ATI in general has an advantage. My point here is that it depends on the game and the setting, and you for sure can't say X800XTs are faster than 6800Us, period.

What you don't bother to mention at ALL is:

1. You have to play SC:CT at crappy SM1.1 on an ATI card.
2. You can't SLI any ATI card (and don't blurt out "Crossfire!" - it's another in a long line of BS paper launches for ATI- you can't buy it- so it doesn't exist)
3. You can't see all of the effects in Lego Star Wars, SC:CT, Far Cry, or Riddick on any ATI card
4. Linux sux on all ATI cards
5. It remains to be seen if Devs will continue to support SM2b as it has not been the MS standard for over a year.

You also left out the only comparison that matters to me at all:

6800GT SLI has no competition at all from ATI. (their current lineup is too slow and weak to be compared)

6800U SLI has no competition at all from ATI. (their current lineup is too slow and weak to be compared)

7800GTX has no competition at all from ATI. (their current lineup is too slow and weak to be compared)

7800GTX SLI has no competition at all from ATI. (their current lineup is too slow and weak to be compared)

If you want high end performance, you can't even buy it from ATI. They have nothing?

 

[dug777]

i'm not quite sure of the point of the thread but my understanding was that the x850XT PE (or even just XT) stomped the 6800 U pretty badly (looking at that latest 7800 review on AT anyway IIRC) in most areas...if you are just talking fps anyway, having played on neither thats all i can comment on...

(in fact it got pasted in the bf2 benchs on AT by the X850XT PE...very close, in fact ATI winning at the highest res in d3...thumped soundly in hl2...seems to be a pretty convincing showing to me just from looking at those )

 

[imported_Noob]

The 6800 Ultra wins when it comes to more GPU based heavy texturing. While the more memory based high res, AA/AF, high shader based applications typically go to ATI. Personally I would never sacrifice AA for HDR. So to me only advantage the 6800 really has per single card is the ability for IQ enhancing SM3.0 for SC3 and the option to enable HQSF.