Religion rising on campus

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: Vic
Think what you will, Red. If you claim to know something that cannot be proven, i.e. that God does not exist, then you have a belief. Simple as that.

No, it's not like that.

It's more like a lack of a belief in a "One-eyed, one-horned, flying-purple-people-eater." You don't go around "actively disbelieving" in it. In fact, you dont' even consider believing in it at all.

Or what about the infinite multitude of things that you can make up on the spot. Does everyone have a "disbelief" that those don't exist? Does it require a belief system to not believe in those things, even the things you've never heard of or considered? No.

Lack of belief is the default state for everything, untill you are shown otherwise.

That is agnosticism. Vic is talking about atheism.

Not to my understanding. According to The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Agnosticism is

The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.

It is an active belief system in the lack of evidence pointing either way.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: Vic
Think what you will, Red. If you claim to know something that cannot be proven, i.e. that God does not exist, then you have a belief. Simple as that.

No, it's not like that.

It's more like a lack of a belief in a "One-eyed, one-horned, flying-purple-people-eater." You don't go around "actively disbelieving" in it. In fact, you dont' even consider believing in it at all.

Or what about the infinite multitude of things that you can make up on the spot. Does everyone have a "disbelief" that those don't exist? Does it require a belief system to not believe in those things, even the things you've never heard of or considered? No.

Lack of belief is the default state for everything, untill you are shown otherwise.

That is agnosticism. Vic is talking about atheism.

Not to my understanding. According to The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Agnosticism is

The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.

It is an active belief system in the lack of evidence pointing either way.

That is an extremely tedious semantic debate. In any case, I could cite another definiton of the same word (m-w.com):

"broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god"

 

[InfectedMushroom]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Vic
Think what you will, Red. If you claim to know something that cannot be proven, i.e. that God does not exist, then you have a belief. Simple as that.

I do not believe in fairy tales.

Can you disprove the "fairy tales", Red? Simply because you put a derogatory label on the subject does not change what it is.

How about this Vic: I cannot prove that god does not exist. Just like someone can't prove to me that one exists (or is unique). So I choose to live without giving a sh1t if one exists or doesn't.
However I do take issue with those who will try to tell me that one exists and it tells them what to do in their lives. That is plain delussional.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: InfectedMushroom
How about this Vic: I cannot prove that god does not exist. Just like someone can't prove to me that one exists (or is unique). So I choose to live without giving a sh1t if one exists or doesn't.
However I do take issue with those who will try to tell me that one exists and it tells them what to do in their lives. That is plain delussional.

What you choose then is agnosticism.

What another person chooses to believe and whether or not they share it does not threaten me. It's their belief system and to believe in it is their inalienable right, regardless of whether they believe in God, not in God, or in the Man-in-the-Moon.

What I see as delusional and take issue with is when people believe in AND push their belief system as something other than what it actually is. This is probably the reason why the AT atheists see me at odds with them. They want to believe that their belief system is some kind of pure, rational absence of belief when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. If that were truly the case, they wouldn't take so much offense or become so hostile to the beliefs of others.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: kogase
Lack of proof for one thing does not equal proof for something else. Therefore, lack of proof of a God does not equal proof that there is no God. Vic has been explaining this, and it's very painful to watch.

Just as it is painful to watch the Religious Fundies now running the Government and Schools teaching kids that there is no such thing as Science and to not believe any of that "Monkey to Man stuff". <------- Exact words of State Secretary of Education.

 

[InfectedMushroom]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: InfectedMushroom
How about this Vic: I cannot prove that god does not exist. Just like someone can't prove to me that one exists (or is unique). So I choose to live without giving a sh1t if one exists or doesn't.
However I do take issue with those who will try to tell me that one exists and it tells them what to do in their lives. That is plain delussional.

What you choose then is agnosticism.

What another person chooses to believe and whether or not they share it does not threaten me. It's their belief system and to believe in it is their inalienable right, regardless of whether they believe in God, not in God, or in the Man-in-the-Moon.

What I see as delusional and take issue with is when people believe in AND push their belief system as something other than what it actually is. This is probably the reason why the AT atheists see me at odds with them. They want to believe that their belief system is some kind of pure, rational absence of belief when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. If that were truly the case, they wouldn't take so much offense or become so hostile to the beliefs of others.

I generally agree with you on this. Don't really care what everyone else believes in.
But for example, I take great fvcking issue with the religious fanatics trying to tell my gf that she can't do what she wants with her own body based on something they think their imaginary friend is telling them.
But yes, in general I do have an issue with those belonging to a religious organization, since just like any other political party, they try to recruit you in, and conform to their world view.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: InfectedMushroom
I generally agree with you on this. Don't really care what everyone else believes in.
But for example, I take great fvcking issue with the religious fanatics trying to tell my gf that she can't do what she wants with her own body based on something they think their imaginary friend is telling them.
But yes, in general I do have an issue with those belonging to a religious organization, since just like any other political party, they try to recruit you in, and conform to their world view.

Well, believe it or not, I take issue with those people too. Not because of their faith though (which is their right), but because of their hypocracy. Try to understand that what they do is not really in accordance with the Christianity in the Bible, except from their own twisted view of it. Yet another example of people pushing their belief system as something other than what it actually is.

As for your last paragraph, be of sterner stuff eh? I'm not threatened by their prostelytizing, I know that it's never going to happen. Same as when the political parties come to my door hitting me up for money. Not gonna happen. Why would it?
My GF used to get all freaked out when the JW's would come to our door, but I always found it amusing. It's not like they have some kind of hypnotic mind power to brainwash you on the spot. And I would enjoy the religious discussion and the opportunity to find out what their belief system really is, to study it. And what better way than when they're trying to sell me on it?
They don't come to my door anymore, btw.

 

[InfectedMushroom]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: InfectedMushroom
I generally agree with you on this. Don't really care what everyone else believes in.
But for example, I take great fvcking issue with the religious fanatics trying to tell my gf that she can't do what she wants with her own body based on something they think their imaginary friend is telling them.
But yes, in general I do have an issue with those belonging to a religious organization, since just like any other political party, they try to recruit you in, and conform to their world view.

Well, believe it or not, I take issue with those people too. Not because of their faith though (which is their right), but because of their hypocracy. Try to understand that what they do is not really in accordance with the Christianity in the Bible, except from their own twisted view of it. Yet another example of people pushing their belief system as something other than what it actually is.

As for your last paragraph, be of sterner stuff eh? I'm not threatened by their prostelytizing, I know that it's never going to happen. Same as when the political parties come to my door hitting me up for money. Not gonna happen. Why would it?
My GF used to get all freaked out when the JW's would come to our door, but I always found it amusing. It's not like they have some kind of hypnotic mind power to brainwash you on the spot. And I would enjoy the religious discussion and the opportunity to find out what their belief system really is, to study it. And what better way than when they're trying to sell me on it?
They don't come to my door anymore, btw.

Oh I am quite confident that I won't be sucked into their world view. And they did stop trying to come to my door too. Not sure if it was the discussion I had with one of them or the funnier questions I posed another (something about booze and hookers... didn't go too well), but they stopped.

As for the rest we are in agreement... or something like that.

 

[joshw10]

Somebody prove to me there's no Santa Claus. Go ahead, try.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: joshw10
Somebody prove to me there's no Santa Claus. Go ahead, try.

Easy. Who put the gifts under the tree this past Christmas? Only a child would say they magically appeared.

Same with the tooth fairy. Only a child would think that money magically appeared under the pillow, while parents know exactly where it came from and how it got there.

Next?

 

[joshw10]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: joshw10
Somebody prove to me there's no Santa Claus. Go ahead, try.

Easy. Who put the gifts under the tree this past Christmas? Only a child would say they magically appeared.

Same with the tooth fairy. Only a child would think that money magically appeared under the pillow, while parents know exactly where it came from and how it got there.

Next?

Uh...you didnt even come close to proving that there's no Santa Claus.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: joshw10

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: joshw10
Somebody prove to me there's no Santa Claus. Go ahead, try.

Easy. Who put the gifts under the tree this past Christmas? Only a child would say they magically appeared.

Same with the tooth fairy. Only a child would think that money magically appeared under the pillow, while parents know exactly where it came from and how it got there.

Next?

Uh...you didnt even come close to proving that there's no Santa Claus.

you're just wanting someone to give you free gifts, so shut up

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: joshw10
Uh...you didnt even come close to proving that there's no Santa Claus.

What is Santa Claus suppposed to do, except bring gifts at Christmas? If he doesn't do that, then he doesn't exist. That is proof.