Religion shoud be outlawed

[Tristicus]

Stupidity should be outlawed too, but unfortunately people like you still roam around.

 

[MJinZ]

Religion is another form of Government, one that has been proven wrong throughout history. It does not allow for questioning it's rules or beliefs, it does not allow for trial by a jury of your peers, in short, it's 1300 to 2000 years old.

Isn't it time that we outlaw it, in the face of Government, which is a superior moderator of society?

The two can't coexist.

There are millions of people crushed by Religion today, and if America had a strict no religion policy, they could have hopes, that a Government would some day be there, and Religion would be squashed.

-John

First amendment's a bitch.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Please re-read my post. I specifically said churches are not the same as a "for profit" business and specifically mentioned Wal-Mart.[/QUOTE

True and they also pay taxes which is curiously missed on the part of many. The source of funds are donations with few exceptions. Now you could argue that chartiable and political speech should be taxed and that would be consistent although I'd disagree. Remember that most sustained disaster relief is done with some of these monies. I think you would find the majority of volunteer disaster work is done by faith based groups and individuals.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Except that no church that I'm aware of will kick you out even if you're a member for life and never give them a dime. Other than that though, your model is spot on.

If church was taxed then I'd just create an different non-profit group to funnel the money through.

 

[nonlnear]

Please re-read my post. I specifically said churches are not the same as a "for profit" business and specifically mentioned Wal-Mart.

But they are the same as a not for profit business like Ikea.

 

[coffeejunkee]

Never mind that its legitimacy still rested on shifting sands of mythology.

A government can be perfectly legitimized by the fact that it's put in place by the people it governs over. Mythology has nothing to do with that, that would be nationalism. Which ofcourse was/is used by many states, but it's not a prerequisite. It's theoretically possible to have a non-nationalist state, whereas it's not possible to have a non-mythical religion.

Religion was the first 'government' though. It was developed when man shifted from a hunting/gathering lifestyle to an agricultural one. In such a society food needs to be reallocated and this was the primary task of religion. Later this task was taken over by the military caste but they still used religion for controlling the masses (apparently it does a good job at that). Ofcourse religion wasn't happy about that and for a very long time tried to take power back. I would say it wasn't until after the French Revolution that they finally had to adjust their ambitions (notice France uses a very strict separation between state and church).

Ofcourse mankind has been spiritual long before that, but that has nothing to do with religion since spirituality doesn't require institutionalization.

Ontopic: personally I would love to see religion disappear from this world, because I think it does more harm than good. You can live a good life without being religious. Simply outlawing does not work though, the key lies in good education without religious infuences (oh well, outlawing anyway I guess). But since at the moment probably half of the world population can't even read or write I don't see it happen very soon, if ever.

 

[Jaskalas]

There are millions of people crushed by Religion today, and if America had a strict no religion policy, they could have hopes, that a Government would some day be there, and Religion would be squashed.

-John

That last line is striking. The church of big government is no better than any other. You can replace one with another but faith in higher powers is almost always misplaced. Both with god and country, the creations of man should not be followed blindly.

 

[jjmIII]

Religion = War

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Religion = War

How profound. Now please give your keyboard back to an adult.

 

[BoomerD]

I wouldn't support a ban on religion, even though I'm not particularly religious, but I would support eliminating charitable donations as a tax write-off. That basically amounts to government support of the charity by allowing the members to deduct any donations from their taxable income. No, it's not a "one for one" deduction, but it still amounts to government subsidies.

Eliminate the "not for profit" status of churches...while they may not "technically" be "for profit," they sure as hell make money...in a big way. The Catholic church and the Mormons are the two richest churches in existence...and every dime given can be written off as a "charitable donation."

 

[Moonbeam]

If the time ever comes that people like the OP come to control the government I shall take up arms against it. The tyranny he promotes is far worse than any terrorist fantasy. If I die so be it, but I will not be a slave to his state. He's a fool.

I'm going postal when the Mugimucks try to take over.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm going postal when the Mugimucks try to take over.

I'm sorry you aren't permitted to think that way.

 

[nonlnear]

A government can be perfectly legitimized by the fact that it's put in place by the people it governs over.

That's fine and dandy for truly voluntary citizenship, but inherited consent is a pathetic excuse for legitimacy. At least divine right makes no bones about its absurdity.

Mythology has nothing to do with that, that would be nationalism.

True government by consent would have nothing to do with mythology, I agree. However that is not what we have here in the US, or in any other nation state today.

Religion was the first 'government' though. It was developed when man shifted from a hunting/gathering lifestyle to an agricultural one. In such a society food needs to be reallocated and this was the primary task of religion. Later this task was taken over by the military caste but they still used religion for controlling the masses (apparently it does a good job at that). Ofcourse religion wasn't happy about that and for a very long time tried to take power back. I would say it wasn't until after the French Revolution that they finally had to adjust their ambitions (notice France uses a very strict separation between state and church).

You are in the right track here, but you need to deconstruct the first step a little more. Religion was the first form of government to be sure. However that fact seems to be forgotten when using the term to describe modern power structures. Early religions created deities, mystical forces, and other mysteries in a completely haphazard way for the express purpose of legitimizing themselves. It was never about the mythology itself (despite true believers being blind to this), but for the preservation of the power structure. Government was the sole purpose of religion. Systematized superstitions grew out of this ingrained power structure. Fast forward a couple millennia and bureaucracies have become so ingrained in the more powerful cultures that nobody much cares about the superstitious underpinnings any more. Modern society is so complex that no individual even knows how the whole thing is put together any more, so it's little wonder that it doesn't need the endorsement of an old man in the sky. However it's folish to look back on the shedding of theologians from the state to think that religion has been purged. Nothing could be farther from the truth! Kicking gods out of the state doesn't make institutionalized forced "consent" to law any less religious. It's just a new, leaner kind of religion.

Of course mankind has been spiritual long before that, but that has nothing to do with religion since spirituality doesn't require institutionalization.

I agree with you fully on that point.

 

[BoberFett]

Government is a form of religion.

Edit: I see I'm late to the conversation.

 

[nonlnear]

Eliminate the "not for profit" status of churches...while they may not "technically" be "for profit," they sure as hell make money...in a big way. The Catholic church and the Mormons are the two richest churches in existence...and every dime given can be written off as a "charitable donation."

The big problem is the entire corporate classification structure. It is entirely too complicated - and unnecessarily so. I'd like to see all the profit/not for profit categories eliminated, no taxes on corporate profits, but a 1-2% tax on corporate capital instead. You don't want to pay taxes for your charity? Simple: don't build fancy buildings, and don't hang on to huge endowments.

 

[Moonbeam]

Zorkorist: Religion is another form of Government, one that has been proven wrong throughout history. It does not allow for questioning it's rules or beliefs, it does not allow for trial by a jury of your peers, in short, it's 1300 to 2000 years old.

M: My poor dear benighted soul, you have fallen off the bridge and wander aimlessly in the valley of the shadow of death without rod or staff and have misunderstood everything.

Religions are a bridges to reality built at various times specifically for those times, those people, and those conditions of dominant concealed prejudice that blind those of that time and place. They are all dead now because the Real Ones who operated them, the only ones capable of seeing exactly how you in particular can be led to the light, have all died. They (their religions or bridges to reality) are all there now, out of time and place and effectiveness, giving off the aroma of something that was one cooking on the stove, but is no longer served up, with the rare exception of some strange soul who comes along with an eidetic nose. You seen not to be one of those.

Z: Isn't it time that we outlaw it, in the face of Government, which is a superior moderator of society?

M: Why, when the same blind wandering lost sheep that know nothing about the real purpose and meaning of their religions bring the same blindness to bare on government itself and fuck it up just like they do their religion. The government doesn't have nearly the aroma that religion does, and none of the myths, stories, and deep psychological truths wrapped up in allegories that religion does. Nobody ever crossed a bridge built by government. In fact the best government is that government which knows and speaks to that mystery of religion, the strange suspicion that rights are inalienable. The inalienable is a province of religion the mists around which disappear as one crossed the bridge.

Z: The two can't coexist.

M: The state can't exist without the truth of the inalienable. Without the absolute, nothing would matter. Your life, were you to attempt to live it, would quickly be ended.

Z: There are millions of people crushed by Religion today, and if America had a strict no religion policy, they could have hopes, that a Government would some day be there, and Religion would be squashed.

M: All those millions die not by religion but by its absence. All that which you call religion is, as I said, long dead. They were all killed by the disease they were intended to cure, the mechanical man, humanity as we everywhere find him. The only thing that saves us is that lingering smell in the air, that deep mournful cry of the reed pipe lamenting the loss of it osier bed. Religion has gone underground, safe from the disease. It can't be given to those who don't deserve it, and can't be kept from those who do.

 

[Moonbeam]

Religion is another form of Government, one that has been proven wrong throughout history. It does not allow for questioning it's rules or beliefs, it does not allow for trial by a jury of your peers, in short, it's 1300 to 2000 years old.

Isn't it time that we outlaw it, in the face of Government, which is a superior moderator of society?

The two can't coexist.

There are millions of people crushed by Religion today, and if America had a strict no religion policy, they could have hopes, that a Government would some day be there, and Religion would be squashed.

-John

We can look at this from another way:

Religion is based on the notion of right and wrong, good and evil, sin and virtue, salvation and damnation, to your mind, I am sure. So what you are proposing to do is exterminate religion with religion. Religion is evil and should go to hell, be damned, and expunged from existence, and then it will be your turn with your own evil religion. You are a deeply religious person a crusader even, no? Remember, every religion is the only religion and I am quite sure you think you are right.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Looking around I've come to believe that it isn't religion or lack of it but rather the belief that freedom has become synonymous with self indulgence. One has the right to make someone else believe or act a certain way but no one has a right to tell them they are wrong.
We are collectively social toddlers where it's all about "me". Freedom is not found in your "stuff" or ones struggle to control others but in mastery of oneself. Without that you are always a lesser person, subject to others "taking away your dignity". Well "they" can't convince you that their lust for power or greed is valid. They cannot take you from yourself, which in the end is all you have. I wonder how many children are even aware of the concept? It appears that most of their elders haven't learned the lesson themselves.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Dp

 

[nonlnear]

We can look at this from another way:

Religion is based on the notion of right and wrong, good and evil, sin and virtue, salvation and damnation, to your mind, I am sure. So what you are proposing to do is exterminate religion with religion. Religion is evil and should go to hell, be damned, and expunged from existence, and then it will be your turn with your own evil religion. You are a deeply religious person a crusader even, no? Remember, every religion is the only religion and I am quite sure you think you are right.

Moonbeam, now nobody is going to listen.
Sure it might be true, but truth is never on the mind of people claiming to need the force of law to bring their truth to the masses. All you're going to do is embarrass our poor internet evangelist John. Then again that's probably not a bad thing...

 

[MJinZ]

Religion is a form of government.

Edit: I see I'm late to the conversation.

Fixed.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Fixed.

When faith is placed in corruption, does the order matter?

 

[MJinZ]

That's fine and dandy for truly voluntary citizenship, but inherited consent is a pathetic excuse for legitimacy. At least divine right makes no bones about its absurdity.

True government by consent would have nothing to do with mythology, I agree. However that is not what we have here in the US, or in any other nation state today.

Since just about anyone can become any part of the government, I don't see any problems of legitimacy. Heck, even Obama got to be president.

You are in the right track here, but you need to deconstruct the first step a little more. Religion was the first form of government to be sure.

Uh wut? What a white/euro-centric thing to say.

However that fact seems to be forgotten when using the term to describe modern power structures. Early religions created deities, mystical forces, and other mysteries in a completely haphazard way for the express purpose of legitimizing themselves. It was never about the mythology itself (despite true believers being blind to this), but for the preservation of the power structure. Government was the sole purpose of religion. Systematized superstitions grew out of this ingrained power structure. Fast forward a couple millennia and bureaucracies have become so ingrained in the more powerful cultures that nobody much cares about the superstitious underpinnings any more. Modern society is so complex that no individual even knows how the whole thing is put together any more, so it's little wonder that it doesn't need the endorsement of an old man in the sky. However it's folish to look back on the shedding of theologians from the state to think that religion has been purged. Nothing could be farther from the truth! Kicking gods out of the state doesn't make institutionalized forced "consent" to law any less religious. It's just a new, leaner kind of religion.
I agree with you fully on that point.

Another opinion that government is a type of religion.

I don't know, I don't believe in Government to be flawless or even all good. Nor worship it. Nor think it makes much difference. Nor respect any laws I deem to be worthless (like jay walking and speeding) and retarded.

Religion is a type of government (among other things). Not even close to the other way around.

See - definition of religion.

 

[MJinZ]

When faith is placed in corruption, does the order matter?

Well, I don't see anyone putting their faith in government.

The order matters, just as clearly as all humans are animals, but not all animals are humans. ()

 

[Moonbeam]

Hayabusa Rider: Looking around I've come to believe that it isn't religion or lack of it but rather the belief that freedom has become synonymous with self indulgence.

M: I attribute this to ego need, the feeling one is lacking, the result of having been put down for having needs which are then suppressed and leak out all over the place inappropriately.

HR: One has the right to make someone else believe or act a certain way but no one has a right to tell them they are wrong.

M: When children are told this they have no defense and must believe it to survive.

HR: We are collectively social toddlers where it's all about "me". Freedom is not found in your "stuff" or ones struggle to control others but in mastery of oneself. Without that you are always a lesser person, subject to others "taking away your dignity".

M: We are emotionally frozen in childhood clinging to our toys, told to have self control or else instead of it developing naturally. The lesser person to me is that ego, the defense against past put downs, the one who stands ready to challenge future insult with aggression, needlessly.

HR: They can't convince you that their lust for power or greed is valid. They cannot take you from yourself, which in the end is all you have.

M: They can when the hidden feeling is that they are right. We had to accept humiliation as children or die. Children can't live without love. Only Zombies can. Some of us are fully dead and some of us suffer, like the princess who can't sleep with the pea under 39 mattresses. Lucky are the ones who suffer because those who fully suffer find release.

HR: I wonder how many children are even aware of the concept? It appears that most of their elders haven't learned the lesson themselves.

M: I think that because a child has no armor when he is hurt emotionally he feels it as pain at its max. I think the reason it is so hard to fully recover is because nobody has any idea just how deep is the pain and how powerful the motivation never again to feel at maximum. I believe the each of us feels like the worst person in the world because we were hurt at the maximum level we can feel pain. I remember the first time I fell into it. I just couldn't fucking believe I could hurt so much.

I hope you don't mind me using your words here as I did, but I don't see any hope for humanity unless we can understand the problem of self hate.