Religion

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

So free will = all the random bad things that happen in peoples lives. I simply cannot believe that my wife, who was a good person (and was Christian) got cancer and died leaving behind a 1 year old son because of some bad choice she made in life, or to test myself, a friend, or a family member. I heard this kind of stuff alot after she died, because of course there has to be a reason for everything.

I accept that we live in a sometimes cruel environment, with sometimes cruel people, where ****** can happen to anyone.

First off, I'd like to express my sympathies to you on your lose. I can't image in my life without my dear wife.

Personally, to me, this is where my belief in an eternal marriage comes in. Foremost though, I don't want to offend you or your relationship by this, so feel free to stop reading if it is offensive. My wife and I were married for time and all eternity, not till death do we part. This is the one thing would provide me with the strength to continue without my wife. I truly, TRULY, applaud you for having the strength to carry on. Many people can't.

I know you may not believe me, and you welcome to such a feeling, but I KNOW God knows you and cares about you, and has provided a way for you to be united together with your wife and family for time and all eternity.

 

[themusgrat]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

I agree. I think it's better for you to be you than to pretend to be something you're not, even if that means you don't believe in God. God understands more than anyone what has happened in your life and does take that into consideration.

Are you Mormon? Did I miss that? God does take everything into consideration. But above all else, He will ask for an account of all your deeds. If you give the wrong answer, He will not look upon sin. Where do you get your ideas?

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: themusgrat

Are you Mormon? Did I miss that? God does take everything into consideration. But above all else, He will ask for an account of all your deeds. If you give the wrong answer, He will not look upon sin. Where do you get your ideas?

No, you didn't miss anything. I am Mormon. And yes, you are correct, he will not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. However, what you are missing is the fact that he would be lying if he claimed to be something he's not. Therefore, he would be a sinner as well if he proclaimed himself to believe in God when he doesn't. So which one is worse? Either way, he'd still be a sinner in God's eyes.

Plus, another thing to consider is what happens after this life. You have no way of knowing what can and will happen in this mans existence after this life. Repentence is always available until the day of Judgement. Personally, I think God would rather us be honest with ourselves and with him and work with us from that point, then to have us live a life that is a lie.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: DVK916

Originally posted by: themusgrat
Whatever. I see that you don't understand.

When you die your corpse rots. You don't speak to anyone. Your dead, there is no afterlife.

And you are right...why? I dont grasp why somehow the lack of belief is sane and belief is insane? Because ->> you <-- said so? *shakes head*

One thing I have noticed, as a general rule, is that those who dont believe are very intolerant. For example in your sig "The only book more filthy than the B.I.B.L.E is the Koran." I dont see where intolerance is a good thing. Of course there are those religious types who spew the same hatred and predjudice, but I have yet to meet a non-believer who DOESNT. I just fail to see where intolerance breeds any kind of love or happiness...

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: InfectedMushroom

Originally posted by: Aimster
I'm a hardcore Muslim because Islam is the path to enlightenment.

wtf is enlightment?

The state of attaining enlightement is enlightenment. It's a trick question and a secret hidden in plain sight.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: themusgrat
Salvation is not dependant on how few sins you commit, it is all about knowing Jesus. One sin is too many for God to accept, so even if the atheist leads a relatively good life, it is relatively wrong to God's standard, or absolutely wrong. The average person may be somewhat good, but again, one sin... To Moonbeam, no one really understands why good is right and evil is wrong. But God created our idea of these thiings, or attitudes, and I intend to find out about them. In a way, it is us, and not the sin, that is wrong. What is sin? It is a choice, so whoever made the choice is the wrong factor in the equation. And also, you reasoning behind why we despise evil is right. But without God, there is no universal standard for that evil. Thought does not have to be evil. Are good and evil really the products of thought? I would disagree, I think. Where did this come from?

" The good news, of course, is that we already have and that we were never guilty of anything because there never was any sin."

See, here's the thing:
With God, there is still no universal standard of evil. There is only a standard for your sect of your religion, which is not universal. The only ones so widely accepted as to be universal transcend belief in any god or gods.

So has atheism [become a crutch]. In fact, I think that I could use almost any moral to justify any number of wrong things. So, do you, as an atheist, have morals? If so, where did they come from? Not yourself, there are definite absolutes, such as don't murder. If humans did not come up with them, who did? Did they just happen? Oh, I remember, an invisible, undetectable force called morality bursted out of the big bang, and affects the universe. Too bad we can't remove it. So?...

Do you, as a theist, have morals? Can you prove they did not evolve from the social needs of your ancestors, as they began running into crises after crisis, needing hard rules to deal with them fairly? Hint: that is part of the answer to your question of where they come from.

Religions have used their beliefs to defy their apparently good morals (missionaries are often good examples). This is no different from non-religious and non-theists. It is merely a human thing. The only difference is what the excuse is said to be. The health of the state, God, the children, the future, etc.--same behavior, same results.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. People have been spoken to by God, but when you see God, you die. Personally, I think that since God's Word has been written, He has chosen to speak that way to them.

If he, she, and/or it exists, maybe. But which set of words? I have one linked in my sig, FI; said to come straight from a messenger from a higher source, written by the hand of a man. Is it right? Or is yours? How do you know? How do I know?

Is there even a proper answer to the last four questions I posed?

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: themusgrat

Sorry, I wasn't clear. People have been spoken to by God, but when you see God, you die. Personally, I think that since God's Word has been written, He has chosen to speak that way to them.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Deut. 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

I could show you more if you'd like, but the important thing to realize is that these verses exist, along with other verses that say you can't see God and live. There would therefore appear to be a contradiction. However, the difference is that we can't see God in our "natural" state or with our "natural" eyes. We must be changed, which is exactly what happened to individuals such as these. It is obvious that Moses saw God and still lived, as well as others, so they had to have been changed somehow.

 

[DVK916]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: DVK916

Originally posted by: themusgrat
Whatever. I see that you don't understand.

When you die your corpse rots. You don't speak to anyone. Your dead, there is no afterlife.

And you are right...why? I dont grasp why somehow the lack of belief is sane and belief is insane? Because ->> you <-- said so? *shakes head*

One thing I have noticed, as a general rule, is that those who dont believe are very intolerant. For example in your sig "The only book more filthy than the B.I.B.L.E is the Koran." I dont see where intolerance is a good thing. Of course there are those religious types who spew the same hatred and predjudice, but I have yet to meet a non-believer who DOESNT. I just fail to see where intolerance breeds any kind of love or happiness...

I am tolerant. Tolerant doesn't mean have to like your religion. Tolerant means I don't advocate violence against you.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: CSMR
What is a good person to you?

Having the qualities that are desirable
Superior to the average...
I believe the average person is a good person.

[/quote]
So the average person has what can be desired? The average person can be no better than he is because he has what can be desired (rightly, presumably) and because he is by definition at least as good as average? At least half the people in the world have in their own various ways attained that state of being beyond which one cannot go?

worthy of respect
honorable

(Now I grant, many people can be honourable and worthy of respect. We may honour for various reasons and respect for various reasons. Perhaps we honour the man who has made a great discovery or a great conquest or a great sacrifice, or respect the general, or the police officer, or the teacher, for his position. That has nothing to do with good unless a person is honourable for being good and respected for being good. Honour and respect do not tell us what is good.)

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

So free will = all the random bad things that happen in peoples lives. I simply cannot believe that my wife, who was a good person (and was Christian) got cancer and died leaving behind a 1 year old son because of some bad choice she made in life, or to test myself, a friend, or a family member. I heard this kind of stuff alot after she died, because of course there has to be a reason for everything.

I accept that we live in a sometimes cruel environment, with sometimes cruel people, where ****** can happen to anyone.

First off, I'd like to express my sympathies to you on your lose. I can't image in my life without my dear wife.

Personally, to me, this is where my belief in an eternal marriage comes in. Foremost though, I don't want to offend you or your relationship by this, so feel free to stop reading if it is offensive. My wife and I were married for time and all eternity, not till death do we part. This is the one thing would provide me with the strength to continue without my wife. I truly, TRULY, applaud you for having the strength to carry on. Many people can't.

I know you may not believe me, and you welcome to such a feeling, but I KNOW God knows you and cares about you, and has provided a way for you to be united together with your wife and family for time and all eternity.

Thanks for your concern. I know what Mormons believe having been raised in a predominately LDS area. My wife was raised LDS until 16, then considered herself Christian after having a falling out with her Bishop.

Really the only thing that got me through the whole ordeal was my son, without him I don't know what I would have done. As far as my wife, she was and will always be my wife and my sons mother, I need no religious docterine to tell me that.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Thanks for your concern. I know what Mormons believe having been raised in a predominately LDS area. My wife was raised LDS until 16, then considered herself Christian after having a falling out with her Bishop.

Really the only thing that got me through the whole ordeal was my son, without him I don't know what I would have done. As far as my wife, she was and will always be my wife and my sons mother, I need no religious docterine to tell me that.

I'm glad to hear it. It's good to know your son has such a great father too. Again, I tip my hat to you. :thumbsup:

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: DVK916

If I am tolerant. Tolerant doesn't mean have to like your religion. Tolerant means I don't advocate violence against you.

You are correct. You don't have to like my religion or anyone else's religion. However, your comments don't show tolerance or intolerance. They show immaturity, hatred, childishness, and are completely self-centered.

You're welcome to criticize, belittle, or mock religion as much as you want. It doesn't affect me or anyone else. It only shows your true character, which not offense, but I wouldn't be too proud of.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, if you don't advocate violence against religious people, why do you believe the world would be better is we were all gone? It seems obvious that you wish all religious people where dead. But I guess violence and death are two different things. :roll:

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: DVK916

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: DVK916

Originally posted by: themusgrat
Whatever. I see that you don't understand.

When you die your corpse rots. You don't speak to anyone. Your dead, there is no afterlife.

And you are right...why? I dont grasp why somehow the lack of belief is sane and belief is insane? Because ->> you <-- said so? *shakes head*

One thing I have noticed, as a general rule, is that those who dont believe are very intolerant. For example in your sig "The only book more filthy than the B.I.B.L.E is the Koran." I dont see where intolerance is a good thing. Of course there are those religious types who spew the same hatred and predjudice, but I have yet to meet a non-believer who DOESNT. I just fail to see where intolerance breeds any kind of love or happiness...

I am tolerant. Tolerant doesn't mean have to like your religion. Tolerant means I don't advocate violence against you.

Arent you the one who said he wouldnt cross the street to help a theist? You would watch another human being suffer or even die just because of their beliefs? You are not tolerant. You are incredibly ignorant and selfish. God forbid (no pun intended) you are judged as harshly as you judge others. You have a rude awakening waiting someday.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: DVK916

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: DVK916

Originally posted by: themusgrat
Whatever. I see that you don't understand.

When you die your corpse rots. You don't speak to anyone. Your dead, there is no afterlife.

And you are right...why? I dont grasp why somehow the lack of belief is sane and belief is insane? Because ->> you <-- said so? *shakes head*

One thing I have noticed, as a general rule, is that those who dont believe are very intolerant. For example in your sig "The only book more filthy than the B.I.B.L.E is the Koran." I dont see where intolerance is a good thing. Of course there are those religious types who spew the same hatred and predjudice, but I have yet to meet a non-believer who DOESNT. I just fail to see where intolerance breeds any kind of love or happiness...

I am tolerant. Tolerant doesn't mean have to like your religion. Tolerant means I don't advocate violence against you.

You aren't tolerant. Tolerant means you accept someone else's beliefs, and you obviously don't since you are sitting here saying theists deserve to die and you wouldn't help one...you act like they are witches or something, they are everyday people not much different from you.

 

[bamacre]

Hatred is perhaps the nastiest of diseases. It is often the result of fear.

DVK916, I wonder what fear resulted in your hartred. And, I warn you that one often becomes that which he hates. You see religion as evil, and look what you have become.

 

[kitkat22]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Hatred is perhaps the nastiest of diseases. It is often the result of fear.

DVK916, I wonder what fear resulted in your hartred. And, I warn you that one often becomes that which he hates. You see religion as evil, and look what you have become.

Couldn't agree more. Sounds kind of Star Warsish, but true none the less. However, I think pride overtakes hatred as the worst. I'm not talking about pride in accomplishing something amazing, but pride where you think you are better than another. Societies can rise and fall based on pride.

 

[Zaitsevs]

I stopped caring about most of it.

most of it doesn't matter, and I'm not going to be happier knowing I will go someplace after I die.

and if I do, then yay,

and if not then whatever.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: cscpianoman

Originally posted by: bamacre
Hatred is perhaps the nastiest of diseases. It is often the result of fear.

DVK916, I wonder what fear resulted in your hartred. And, I warn you that one often becomes that which he hates. You see religion as evil, and look what you have become.

Couldn't agree more. Sounds kind of Star Warsish, but true none the less. However, I think pride overtakes hatred as the worst. I'm not talking about pride in accomplishing something amazing, but pride where you think you are better than another. Societies can rise and fall based on pride.

I agree... everything seems to always come back to pride.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: CSMR

Originally posted by: ntdz
When I say someone is a good person, it has nothing to do with recieving forgiveness from God. You do no need to be religious to be "good," that statement is ridiculous.

What is a good person to you?

The dictionary definition of it...

Being positive or desirable in nature; not bad or poor
Having the qualities that are desirable or distinguishing in a particular thing
Superior to the average; satisfactory
Worthy of respect; honorable

I believe the average person is a good person.

Everyone does good things, and everyone does bad things. Some people do more bad than good, others may do more good than bad.

But I think the quantity of good vs bad is not at issue here... it's the fact that if there is a God who is perfect, he cannot simply ignore all the bad that is present in all of us. If God is perfect, then he is also just, and if he is just, then we are all going to be accountable for the bad in our lives, even the bad things we keep hidden.

To know we are bad, and to realize that God knows that we are bad and will hold us accountable is a very scary thing. There are two ways to resolve the conflict: 1) Run from God (either actively via Atheism or denying God's judgement or passively by not thinking about it) or 2) Accepting the reality of our current human condition and accepting the forgiveness of God.

The 2nd option is harder than most people think, not because it's hard to believe in God, I think there is plenty of evidence if you really want just the truth and aren't trying to fill some agenda, but because facing yourself and looking at yourself squarely in the mirror is difficult and tends to scare us to death. It seems to get harder as we get old and accumulate more junk in our lives that weigh us down.

The good news is, it isn't too late, not for anyone reading this. Jesus told us to preach the "good news"... well, the good news is not that we are all sinners condemned to hell... that's pretty terrible news... the good news is that we are forgiven because of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[themusgrat]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: themusgrat

Sorry, I wasn't clear. People have been spoken to by God, but when you see God, you die. Personally, I think that since God's Word has been written, He has chosen to speak that way to them.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Deut. 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

I could show you more if you'd like, but the important thing to realize is that these verses exist, along with other verses that say you can't see God and live. There would therefore appear to be a contradiction. However, the difference is that we can't see God in our "natural" state or with our "natural" eyes. We must be changed, which is exactly what happened to individuals such as these. It is obvious that Moses saw God and still lived, as well as others, so they had to have been changed somehow.

Moses saw God through a cloud, and saw God's back, best that I can remember. But my point was that no one sees God's face and lives. But what is His face?

And to cerb, as a Christian, I believe that God basically made up our ideas of right and wrong. I don't think that they have evolved, other than being applicable to different instances. Yes, we all mess up, and I'm sure that missionaries have too. It's hard to see exactly what you are talking about. And I'm not sure what the last question is either.

 

[Moonbeam]

Nobody can see God and live. Poor Meister Eckhart, the eye with which he saw God was the same eye with which God saw him. Good thing, I guess that the eye cannot see itself.

 

[themusgrat]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: cscpianoman

Originally posted by: bamacre
Hatred is perhaps the nastiest of diseases. It is often the result of fear.

DVK916, I wonder what fear resulted in your hartred. And, I warn you that one often becomes that which he hates. You see religion as evil, and look what you have become.

Couldn't agree more. Sounds kind of Star Warsish, but true none the less. However, I think pride overtakes hatred as the worst. I'm not talking about pride in accomplishing something amazing, but pride where you think you are better than another. Societies can rise and fall based on pride.

I agree... everything seems to always come back to pride.

True. When you think about it, evil comes from either only caring about yourself, or not caring about others.

 

[oldman420]

Originally posted by: RichardE
If you are not religious, why?

not religious due to the uncertainty of god I just don't get it.

besides according to every religion in the world every other religion is going to hell, hmm see ya there

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: themusgrat

Moses saw God through a cloud, and saw God's back, best that I can remember. But my point was that no one sees God's face and lives. But what is His face?

And to cerb, as a Christian, I believe that God basically made up our ideas of right and wrong. I don't think that they have evolved, other than being applicable to different instances. Yes, we all mess up, and I'm sure that missionaries have too. It's hard to see exactly what you are talking about. And I'm not sure what the last question is either.

To me, God's face is his face. We are told that we are formed in his image, and in his likeness even. Prophets have testified of seeing his face, feet, hands, and back (could be more that I'm missing though). Seems only appropriate to me that God has a body just like we do, only his is perfect. I have found nothing in the scriptures that would suggest otherwise. This is, of course, my interpretation. Everyone is entitled to their own.

 

[themusgrat]

Maybe you are right.

To oldman, that is no good reason. There has to be a reason why religion is wrong, and a reason why your beliefs are right.