But if we were created in the image of God and He didn't fail though sin, why did we? What defect did we acquire from Him in our creation?
Morality is objective in God's eyes. It is us humans who fail.
At probably the singular point in history, God gave us the perfect example of His ultimate Goodness. He allowed His Son to be murdered by men - the ultimate evil act - so that we sinners would have a path to Salvation through accepting Jesus Christ into our life - the ultimate Goodness.
God is not evil. God did not create evil. It is our failing through sin that evil exists.
So you're gonna keep you head buried in the sand and ignore facts in exchange for maintaining your personal opinion.
Thanks for letting me know...
Biblically speaking is all there is, so what do you mean "so what"? You don't agree with it, so it doesn't matter -- you're gonna hold to your personal view regardless. Just admit it.
When I say "all there is" I mean that's the only way even you can draw any conclusion about God anyway.
So here's your problem once again.
You are insisting on circular logic when you try to limit conclusions about biblical truth and the god it describes to only what the bible says about itself. I suspect that the gods described in the sacred texts of every religion will come out just as credible as your Christian one.
In fact, I'd probably have to concede the existence of hobbits if I could only take what Tolkien wrote into account.
Stop reading bibleskeptic.com and shit and go actually ask a priest what they think.
...However, you (and many other non-beievers) do have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Bible and his suggestion of talking to a knowldgeable Christian leader would help clarify/correct your misunderstandings.
Good, you have reason to believe hobbits exists. Good for you.
Good, you have reason to believe hobbits exists. Good for you.
He is making a point that you can't use circular logic to try and prove what you believe. Giving you an example to show you that it doesn't work. Could you please try to give a reasonable response.
I think the problem is when people read about "genocide" in the Bible, they automatically think its wrong and there is no reason for it.
Actually, I'm willing to assume you have no issue with the death penalty (if the situation called for it) which we can and have gotten wrong many times.
Where I am getting at is this; the Bible describes God as the Ultimate Judge, can read hearts etc. He obviously can see something "wrong" that we simply are unable to see, yet when judging the actions he takes, we NEVER take that into consideration.
It's really no different than a judge in a court of law and evidence finds a person guilty and liable to death. We won't necessarily cry foul on that because of the evidence....and we sometimes don't understand all the evidence, but generally, we trust that the system did its job.
For some reason, no one is willing to extend God the same leeway -- we automatically assume he's wrong for killing (A, B, C, or whatever) and almost never take into consideration what may have caused him to execute people sometimes, or decide why someone had to die.
Yet, hypocritically, we're prefectly fine with the justice system deciding the fate of a person, and we ourselves condemn people to death without ANY facts.
No, the problem is this:
I see an Evil act, I call it Evil.
You see an Evil act, you call it Evil, unless it is endorsed by the Bible. Then it somehow becomes Good.
But if we were created in the image of God and He didn't fail though sin, why did we? What defect did we acquire from Him in our creation?
That's not what I am saying. Before you can an act "evil", get the information behind it -- you'd be surprised how many people simply don't because they're being told what to think about the Bible in atheist best-selling books, etc.
Case in point, news paper shows I shot a guy 3 times killing him. You get mad, stop reading because you're upset somebody was "murdered".
What you didn't read was that I was being robbed at gun-point, and was justified in defending myself.
You can certainly call an act "evil" if you see fit, but at least be informed about why what happened, happened.
ummm, we fell from grace in the Garden of Eden.
As Rob says, so many atheists take individual passages from the Bible out of context and do not understand the meaning behind the complete story. The Bible is perfectly written; our failing to understand has to do with our evil and not any lack of clarity on God's part. His message is quite clear.
Mankind of course will interpret the bible in many, many different ways. My interpretation may or may not be always correct, but underlying everything is my unshakeable faith that the Bible is God's Word. And that faith is the support in understanding their are no inconsistencies, just our lack of understanding God's message because we are imperfect beings.
Imperfect not because God made a mistake but because of our downfall by not following God's law.
You are attempting to weasel out of the conversation here. I am Fully aware of what happened. It doesn't matter how elaborate an excuse you can formulate, killing Man, Woman, Child, and even Livestock is an Evil act and not Good or based upon Justice.
You are blinded by your bias. You condone Evil as a result.
If you think that people take the Bible as historically accurate because the "Bible says so" really shows your lack of knowledge of it, or of any history therein.
His analogy made no sense, because Biblical events have scholarly support, and there is physical evidence left behind.
The more we find, the stronger our faith gets, and the more historically valid the book becomes.
For me, this is simple. Regardless of what some spoon fed religious sheep think, the Bible was written by man, in part or in whole, off of earlier ancient texts. And with any stories that are told, written, and re-written some more, there will be contradictions, errors, embellishments, and flat out story telling.
Having said all of that, I am a believer in a creator and in fact find that most rational and logical people believe (to varying degrees) in the notion and/or possibility. But with regards to the Bible, I find it best to read as any other ancient compilation of texts and take from it what is meaningful, and that is the perspective of human kind as told by man over the millennia. It really does not matter if it is fact or fiction, agreeable or not, there are some very good stories of human nature that we all can learn from.
Like you, I could care less what anyone else thinks and/or believes. But to throw the baby out with the bath water, as most atheists do, is something akin to ignorance. I simply let my life lessons, experiences, and overall sense of reality dictate my beliefs. I have no need to reconcile others discrepancies, even within the Bible. True perspective, true belief (in anything) comes from within and are NOT based off of what you simply disagree with or do not understand.
You are making excuses for a flawed document. What you are reading is what it is, your attempts to make it non-contradictory are the excuses.
But I do not make any excuses, God does not need me to do that. Rather I believe it is your belief in your superiority over God that misleads you into the trap of seeming to find inconsistencies. Or perhaps your rejection of God. I do not know what is in your heart, so if I am wrong, I accept that in advance. Yet my point remains, in some form you - a man - believes you know better when that is the very essence of man's downfall and entry into sin, hence evil.
If the bible really is god's truth communicated to man, then it stands to reason that these divinely inspired books should be well written. It makes no sense to think that the meanings gleaned by the reader of god's writing somehow need to be better explained by verbal or written supplements authored by imperfect mortals.
What are we supposed to take for granted? I take it for granted that children take God and Santa Clause for granted. They stop believing in Santa when they see the evidence that what they believed in as children was only a story adults don't actually believe in. They stop believing in God for many different reasons, some that a large number of adults are deluded and still believe a fairy tail, some because what believers say they believe in is ridiculous and illogical, etc.
I am not concerned that you don't believe or with why you don't believe. The benefits of real religious faith are lost to you. As a non-believer, you have no idea what you are missing, what the psychological and health benefits of real faith are. What I am concerned with is the potential that belief in God is the best way to real knowledge of God, and it is that potential I would like to see protected by starting out with a logical and consistent faith that can better weather one's inevitable doubt.
You are in a complaining stage. You are miffed that God won't demonstrate scientifically that he exists. You have to satisfy yourself with the arrogance that you have a superior logic and reason that doesn't fall for fairy tales. Not my problem. You have closed the door on a God I do not believe exists and because of that you won't look for the one that really does exist, the one you can know with absolute certainty is the ground of your very being. God is not some being in the sky or some fancy persona. God is what is when your ego is not, when the Lover and his or her Beloved are one. It is in this state of undivided consciousness that the knowledge of God is won.
There will always be a God because this truth will always be found.
But I do not make any excuses, God does not need me to do that. Rather I believe it is your belief in your superiority over God that misleads you into the trap of seeming to find inconsistencies. Or perhaps your rejection of God. I do not know what is in your heart, so if I am wrong, I accept that in advance. Yet my point remains, in some form you - a man - believes you know better when that is the very essence of man's downfall and entry into sin, hence evil.
In other words, you are telling us that anyone who has doubts about the unerring truth of the bible (e.g. finds inconsistencies) is being evil. Certainly in your judgment and supposedly in god's judgment as well.
As I gather you are not likely to seriously consider evil alternate views, there seems no real point in further discussion.
No you are making an assumption that is not true. All of us sin. Sin is evil. That does not mean you are evil or I am evil all the time. But you and I both have done, do and probably will do a sinful (evil) act again in our lives.
Our differences stem from the idea that I see no inconsistencies in the Bible as there can be none since it is God's Word. "Man" finds what "man" thinks are inconsistencies because none of us have the capabilities of God Himself. So we do our best to try to understand what His Word is and in the attempt think we find those passages that are seemingly inconsistent with other passages.
As for being open to discussion, I most certainly am as I continue to hold a discussion with you in attempting to more clearly outline my position for your understanding. I would like to see you do the same.
Ad hominem.But I do not make any excuses, God does not need me to do that. Rather I believe it is your belief in your superiority over God that misleads you into the trap of seeming to find inconsistencies.
You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.As for being open to discussion, I most certainly am as I continue to hold a discussion with you in attempting to more clearly outline my position for your understanding. I would like to see you do the same.