Religious inconsistency question

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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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I don't have to see miracles to believe they happened. I do, however, need to have reason to trust those who reported them -- and I do. The Bible can be historically verified, and has been (not on every front, but many thus far) to this day.

It holds credibility with me.

We've already gone over this. The Hunchback of Notre Dame and Romance of the Three Kingdoms all have historically accurate details. That does not mean they exist. Shakespeare's Macbeth also uses real characters, in a real historical setting, that all are verified to have existed. Does that mean they are credible in their entirety? No, they are historical novels (and a play).
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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We've already gone over this. The Hunchback of Notre Dame and Romance of the Three Kingdoms all have historically accurate details. That does not mean they exist. Shakespeare's Macbeth also uses real characters, in a real historical setting, that all are verified to have existed. Does that mean they are credible in their entirety? No, they are historical novels (and a play).


We haven't been over anything -- you said something stupid (as you repeated above) and I said if your examples can be used against the Bible, why not apply it to all secular history?


Newton's life shares similarities with all you posted, so does the life of Socrates, Aristotle, etc... so can I attack the veracity of their histories using fictional stories as you cited above?


That's why your asinine argument doesn't work....so you need to stop using it.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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We haven't been over anything -- you said something stupid (as you repeated above) and I said if your examples can be used against the Bible, why not apply it to all secular history?


Newton's life shares similarities with all you posted, so does the life of Socrates, Aristotle, etc... so can I attack the veracity of their histories using fictional stories as you cited above?


That's why your asinine argument doesn't work....so you need to stop using it.

Except accounts of Newton's life don't have him performing miracles. The only stories that have that kind of substance and still claims to be non fiction ARE religious texts.

You using evidence of certain historically accurate details to assume the entirety is true, is the only thing that is stupid.

So, if you can find any book (besides a religious text) that has inclusion of someone performing miracles that claims to be nonfiction, please do provide that evidence.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Except accounts of Newton's life don't have him performing miracles. The only stories that have that kind of substance and still claims to be non fiction ARE religious texts.

So, you're gonna nicpick through the Bible and believe (not in the religious sense of the word) what you want? That's what it sounds like.

Granted, it takes a lot of faith to believe in miracles....that I can agree with.

But if you believe in a supernatural Creator, miracles are easy to believe in. If you don't, you don't believe in mircales.

It's really that simple.

You using evidence of certain historically accurate details to assume the entirety is true, is the only thing that is stupid.

No, I've accepted the realization that you won't find archaeological evidence for everything written in history for a variety of reasons -- things are lost, stolen, eroded with time, built over, and we cannot leave out human error...so sometimes you are left with determining how accurate the reporting is. Many people accept many things without complete evidence....welcome to the real world.

So, if you can find any book (besides a religious text) that has inclusion of someone performing miracles that claims to be nonfiction, please do provide that evidence.

Whether or not other works of non-fiction have miracles in them doesn't prove that the Bible is lying or misreporting.

You're left with either believing them or not, really.
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
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If I accept the explanations offered up, it amounts to more of a choose your own adventure free will. You are stuck within the framework provided, with access to only those limited options. In this adventure book, you only have 2 endings, heaven or hell. All of the provided options lead you to one or the other ending. And hell is the default ending if you choose any other path. I.E. quit early (suicide) refuse to play (not believe) Pick a different CYOA (another religion)

Like rats in a maze... :'(

While how (we) rats travel through the maze of decidedly limited options does say something about the rats, I think that Cerpin Taxt is pointing out that the design of the maze also says much about the nature of the maze builder.

In this world, if an experimenter built a maze where one of the outcomes for the rats was immediate immolation then I'm pretty confident most of us would agree that the builder is inhumane. It would seem that a truly merciful builder would only include options that led to nonpunative outcomes for the rats.

Given the emphasis on mercy and charity in the new testament, we shouldn't expect anything less from a Christian god.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Who's to say Hume would have accepted something as absurd (in his day, anyway) as sending letter thousands of miles in second as "natural"?
What difference does that make?

You make a lot of assumptions.
You make a lot of mistakes in understanding my arguments.



To anyone who fits.
Great tautology. Who are those people?



I don't have to see miracles to believe they happened. I do, however, need to have reason to trust those who reported them -- and I do. The Bible can be historically verified, and has been (not on every front, but many thus far) to this day.
I caught an albino alligator 30 feet long down by the creek at the old oak tree. You can believe me because I can show you the old oak tree down by the creek.

Please. That line of reasoning is so poor, I don't even want to believe you've swallowed it.

It holds credibility with me.
Please, please, please tell me that this isn't really the case.



I've just shown you how faith carries more than one definition, depending on its usage, and yet, you're forcing your definition on me.
I'm not forcing anything. You're equivocating. Having faith in your quarterback for tomorrow's game is wholly different than having faith a person walked on water 2000 years ago, but you're trying to equate them.
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
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So, you're gonna nicpick through the Bible and believe (not in the religious sense of the word) what you want? That's what it sounds like.

Granted, it takes a lot of faith to believe in miracles....that I can agree with.

But if you believe in a supernatural Creator, miracles are easy to believe in. If you don't, you don't believe in mircales.

It's really that simple.

Yes, it really is that simple.

You have choosen to believe in a supernatural creator, and what you believe about miracles and biblical truth has been subsequently choosen to conform to that.

You regularly argue in ways that suggest your road to belief started with lengthy research and scholarly investigation into the bible's historical accuracy, but what you said above shows this wasn't/isn't the case. You didn't work up from biblical belief to belief in god. You worked down to biblical belief from belief in god.

Perhaps it's time for you (and the rest of us) to admit that a person has to believe in god before he/she can accept the bible as god's truth.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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What difference does that make?

What are material means in our day could have been deemed "measurement errors" in Hume's day, for instance. Not saying that miracles were "natrual" because they were not, but my point is that what we understand as unnatural today, could be "why haven't we thought of this sooner?", tomorrow.

You have a flawed and narrow persepective.

OTOH, if God exists, miracles are extremely easy to believe in.

I caught an albino alligator 30 feet long down by the creek at the old oak tree. You can believe me because I can show you the old oak tree down by the creek.Please. That line of reasoning is so poor, I don't even want to believe you've swallowed it.

If that were my line of reasoning, you'd be right....but keep trying.

Going with your analogy, you can show me the alligator.... the Bible writers are dead, Jesus died, so your analogy, while commendable, is flawed because you'd be able to show me your catch.

Secondly, you're in actuality implying that they were lying about what they wrote, and of course....you cannot prove it, so your point is an utter failure.



Please, please, please tell me that this isn't really the case.

Read it again, then.


I'm not forcing anything. You're equivocating. Having faith in your quarterback for tomorrow's game is wholly different than having faith a person walked on water 2000 years ago, but you're trying to equate them.

I am not making an equal comparision -- I am making the point that faith can have more than one meaning, and you don't determine which meaning applies to which example.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Yes, it really is that simple.

You have choosen to believe in a supernatural creator, and what you believe about miracles and biblical truth has been subsequently choosen to conform to that.

You regularly argue in ways that suggest your road to belief started with lengthy research and scholarly investigation into the bible's historical accuracy, but what you said above shows this wasn't/isn't the case. You didn't work up from biblical belief to belief in god. You worked down to biblical belief from belief in god.

Perhaps it's time for you (and the rest of us) to admit that a person has to believe in god before he/she can accept the bible as god's truth.

I've always been religiousy inclined....and natrually thought humans were designed (not saying I had proof of it, though).

Of course, I grew up in a religous household, but by father wasn't a believer in the slightest. I was encouraged to do research into the Bible at a young age, and I did not do that, so I didn't believe, and gave up on religion.

Not until I was in my mid-to-late 20's did I do my own personal research and came to my current conclusions.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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What are material means in our day could have been deemed "measurement errors" in Hume's day, for instance.
What? What are you talking about?

Not saying that miracles were "natrual" because they were not, but my point is that what we understand as unnatural today, could be "why haven't we thought of this sooner?", tomorrow.
So what? Where do you think this is going?

You have a flawed and narrow persepective.
Understanding that there are qualitative differences between advanced technology and magic is not having a "narrow perspective."

OTOH, if God exists, miracles are extremely easy to believe in.
And that has all the advantages of theft over honest toil. No kidding! If we just assume all of your conclusions at the outset, they become true by definition! Wow, that *IS* easy!

Forgive me if that proposition doesn't exactly blow my hair back.

If that were my line of reasoning, you'd be right....but keep trying.
But it is your reasoning -- although I understand you don't want to accept it being accurately characterized.

Going with your analogy, you can show me the alligator.... the Bible writers are dead, Jesus died, so your analogy, while commendable, is flawed because you'd be able to show me your catch.
No, I can't show you the alligator. I caught it back when I was a kid, and we ate it. But you can believe I caught it, because my story is historically accurate. The creek and the old oak tree confirm that.

Secondly, you're in actuality implying that they were lying about what they wrote, and of course....you cannot prove it, so your point is an utter failure.
Whether or not they were lying is wholly irrelevant to my point. My point is that it is poor reasoning to believe miraculous claims on the basis that one can confirm mundane details peripheral to the account of the alleged miracle.


Read it again, then.
I did, and the reasoning is as poor as it was the first time.

I am not making an equal comparision
Horsefeathers. Have you already forgotten your own words? Or would you like to retract them?

-- I am making the point that faith can have more than one meaning, and you don't determine which meaning applies to which example.
1.) Have I contested the fact that faith has more than 1 meaning? Why do you keep pointing that out like it is a point of contention?

2.) I absolutely can determine that the faith you describe is nothing like faith in one's quarterback, and I've thoroughly explained why they are not the same. You're just gainsaying at this point because you don't have a reasoned argument why they should be considered equal.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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So, you're gonna nicpick through the Bible and believe (not in the religious sense of the word) what you want? That's what it sounds like.
No, you're nitpicking details that are not relevant toward the miraculous claims and using them as proof of such claims. It doesn't matter if Jesus lived in a real time. It does not prove the claims of him being the son of God and performing any miracles. The rest of your post is far too silly to even respond. "If you believe, it is true!"
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Understanding that there are qualitative differences between advanced technology and magic is not having a "narrow perspective."

Of course there are, but I'm not talking about "Magic". Try paying attention.

But it is your reasoning -- although I understand you don't want to accept it being accurately characterized.

No, it isn't.

No, I can't show you the alligator. I caught it back when I was a kid, and we ate it. But you can believe I caught it, because my story is historically accurate. The creek and the old oak tree confirm that.

Here's the difference. The Bible doesn't make one isolated story about one single miracle and expects people to believe it. There are hundreds of prophecies in the bible, many of which directly related to the appearance of Jesus.


That's proof right there. You can say they were written afterwards, Jesus (or someone who claimed to have that name) tried to fit the prophecies, the gospel writers lied to make it seem so, or that Jesus really didn't exist... same arguements, different day.

Of course, you can (and will) modify your analogy to meet the criteria, but it won't mean anything now.

Whether or not they were lying is wholly irrelevant to my point. My point is that it is poor reasoning to believe miraculous claims on the basis that one can confirm mundane details peripheral to the account of the alleged miracle.

See above.


Horsefeathers. Have you already forgotten your own words? Or would you like to retract them?

1.) Have I contested the fact that faith has more than 1 meaning? Why do you keep pointing that out like it is a point of contention?

2.) I absolutely can determine that the faith you describe is nothing like faith in one's quarterback, and I've thoroughly explained why they are not the same. You're just gainsaying at this point because you don't have a reasoned argument why they should be considered equal.

Again, I was defining how I hold the faith that I hold.
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Like rats in a maze... :'(

While how (we) rats travel through the maze of decidedly limited options does say something about the rats, I think that Cerpin Taxt is pointing out that the design of the maze also says much about the nature of the maze builder.

In this world, if an experimenter built a maze where one of the outcomes for the rats was immediate immolation then I'm pretty confident most of us would agree that the builder is inhumane. It would seem that a truly merciful builder would only include options that led to nonpunative outcomes for the rats.

Given the emphasis on mercy and charity in the new testament, we shouldn't expect anything less from a Christian god.
That is a pretty good analogy. I may use that at some point in the future.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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No, you're nitpicking details that are not relevant toward the miraculous claims and using them as proof of such claims. It doesn't matter if Jesus lived in a real time. It does not prove the claims of him being the son of God and performing any miracles. The rest of your post is far too silly to even respond. "If you believe, it is true!"

How can I prove a miracle happened?

I can't.

That's my point.

If you bother to pay attention, my arguement was whether or not you have reason to believe those who reported the miracles.

If you don't, fine.... that's what I am saying.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
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Quote:
No, I can't show you the alligator. I caught it back when I was a kid, and we ate it. But you can believe I caught it, because my story is historically accurate. The creek and the old oak tree confirm that.

Here's the difference. The Bible doesn't make one isolated story about one single miracle and expects people to believe it. There are hundreds of prophecies in the bible, many of which directly related to the appearance of Jesus.


That's proof right there. You can say they were written afterwards, Jesus (or someone who claimed to have that name) tried to fit the prophecies, the gospel writers lied to make it seem so, or that Jesus really didn't exists... same arguements, different day.

The Old Testament does prophesize the appearance of Jesus in many separate passages. Since the OT was written long before the appearance of Jesus the Christ, and no human could possibly do what Jesus did in the performing of many miracles, we can conclude that there is a God, there are miracles and Jesus is the Son of God through whom salvation lies as stated in the teachings of Jesus.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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The Old Testament does prophesize the appearance of Jesus in many separate passages. Since the OT was written long before the appearance of Jesus the Christ, and no human could possibly do what Jesus did in the performing of many miracles, we can conclude that there is a God, there are miracles and Jesus is the Son of God through whom salvation lies as stated in the teachings of Jesus.


This is basically it.

Those are not isolated "alligator" type stories.

Here comes the "they're too vague and can fit anyone" arguement.

I've heard 'em all...
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Of course there are, but I'm not talking about "Magic". Try paying attention.
But you are! I asked if the miracles in the Bible were simply advanced technological performances, completely natural in their methodology, and possible in principle to be accomplished by an ordinary person, and you said no! Then it doesn't matter what Hume thinks about email! It's a red herring! Nothing that we could determine to be true about Hume's potential difficulty understanding email would have any meaning at all with regard to the miracles in the bible!

No, it isn't.
You're just gainsaying. You might as well concede, because it is clear you've run out of arguments.


Here's the difference. The Bible doesn't make one isolated story about one single miracle and expects people to believe it. There are hundreds of prophecies in the bible, many of which directly related to the appearance of Jesus.
This isn't a difference in principle, but merely a difference of degree. The reasoning is still poor, as explained.


That's proof right there.
You do not understand what "proof" is.

You can say they were written afterwards, Jesus (or someone who claimed to have that name) tried to fit the prophecies, the gospel writers lied to make it seem so, or that Jesus really didn't exist... same arguements, different day.

Of course, you can (and will) modify your analogy to meet the criteria, but it won't mean anything now.
None of this addresses the principle of my argument. You're just saying that there are many instances where you've applied your poor reasoning.

See above.
See what? You completely missing the point? Yeah, I saw that.


Again, I was defining how I hold the faith that I hold.
And you equated it to a completely different kind of faith.
 

DAPUNISHER

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Like rats in a maze... :'(

While how (we) rats travel through the maze of decidedly limited options does say something about the rats, I think that Cerpin Taxt is pointing out that the design of the maze also says much about the nature of the maze builder.

In this world, if an experimenter built a maze where one of the outcomes for the rats was immediate immolation then I'm pretty confident most of us would agree that the builder is inhumane. It would seem that a truly merciful builder would only include options that led to nonpunative outcomes for the rats.

Given the emphasis on mercy and charity in the new testament, we shouldn't expect anything less from a Christian god.
It was not lost on me, and I like the rat in the maze analogy.

If we are indeed an experiment, it certainly explains much more than what I view as mush brained nonsense, about there being a perfect plan that is anything but.

I respect people's desire for spirituality and faith in a higher power. It is the insane lawyer like tactics used to try to defend and explain ancient writings that inspire my WTF wonderment. Particularly since they may have been inaccurately translated on more than one occasion. Have been tampered with repeatedly, and omit and censor the content.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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But you are! I asked if the miracles in the Bible were simply advanced technological performances, completely natural in their methodology, and possible in principle to be accomplished by an ordinary person, and you said no! Then it doesn't matter what Hume thinks about email! It's a red herring! Nothing that we could determine to be true about Hume's potential difficulty understanding email would have any meaning at all with regard to the miracles in the bible!

Again, pay attention....no one's talking about Magic. Can you get that through?


This isn't a difference in principle, but merely a difference of degree. The reasoning is still poor, as explained.

If it's "poor reasoning" to believe something in light of evidence, then I'll keep that reasoning.

None of this addresses the principle of my argument. You're just saying that there are many instances where you've applied your poor reasoning.

So in your book, "poor reasoning" = believing after having evidence?


And you equated it to a completely different kind of faith.

So, you're sole arbiter or what "faith" is? Or do you like moving goalposts?
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Again, pay attention....no one's talking about Magic. Can you get that through?
If you're not talking about magic, you're not talking about anything relevant, because of the distinctions I've already laid out. I understand, you're trying to talk about Hume and email, but as I pointed out from the beginning, you don't believe that the miracles in the Bible are anything like email. Those are magic, and email is not. You're just blathering about nothing of consequence.




If it's "poor reasoning" to believe something in light of evidence, then I'll keep that reasoning.
You do not have evidence of miracles. That's the whole point that you've missed. Evidence of an old oak tree and a creek is not evidence that I caught a 30 foot albino alligator.


So in your book, "poor reasoning" = believing after having evidence?
You do not have evidence.


So, you're sole arbiter or what "faith" is? Or do you like moving goalposts?
I am absolutely an arbiter of the two meanings of faith when you try to falsely describe one as the other.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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How can I prove a miracle happened?

I can't.

That's my point.

If you bother to pay attention, my arguement was whether or not you have reason to believe those who reported the miracles.

If you don't, fine.... that's what I am saying.

Your argument was that because the setting of the Bible was a real location in a real time, the people who wrote the Bible are credible. Does that sum up your argument? Here is the difference in your Newton comparison. The important part of Newton's life has been repeated and tested hundreds of thousands of times. Miracles, however, have never occurred in a setting that would allow it to be recorded.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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Cerpin Taxt, may I suggest that you stop getting distracted by the name calling and this stupid argument over who is more illogical or who is being more ignorant. It isn't helpful.

Pray To Jesus, can you actually provide an answer to the questions posed here by Cerpin Taxt:

Is there some kind of self-contradiction in the proposition of the creation of a universe with free-will beings unable to accomplish a certain class of actions?

You have claimed that humans have free will. Yet we are unable to choose to see infrared. We cannot choose to levitate. We cannot digest diamonds. We cannot breathe water. Why couldn't a universe creator create a universe where the evil actions are among those humans could not choose to do, while still giving them the freedom to choose ham or jam for breakfast? Are there not free-will humans in evil-free heaven?
If you believe the answers are in the links you posted, please summarize.

OK. The problem is that the issue needs proper expounding.
 
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Pray To Jesus

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Mar 14, 2011
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Article 1. Whether man has free-will?

Objection 1. It would seem that man has not free-will. For whoever has free-will does what he wills. But man does not what he wills; for it is written (Romans 7:19): "For the good which I will I do not, but the evil which I will not, that I do." Therefore man has not free-will.

Objection 2. Further, whoever has free-will has in his power to will or not to will, to do or not to do. But this is not in man's power: for it is written (Romans 9:16): "It is not of him that willeth"--namely, to will--"nor of him that runneth"--namely, to run. Therefore man has not free-will.

Objection 3. Further, what is "free is cause of itself," as the Philosopher says (Metaph. i, 2). Therefore what is moved by another is not free. But God moves the will, for it is written (Proverbs 21:1): "The heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord; whithersoever He will He shall turn it" and (Philippians 2:13): "It is God Who worketh in you both to will and to accomplish." Therefore man has not free-will.

Objection 4. Further, whoever has free-will is master of his own actions. But man is not master of his own actions: for it is written (Jeremiah 10:23): "The way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk." Therefore man has not free-will.

Objection 5. Further, the Philosopher says (Ethic. iii, 5): "According as each one is, such does the end seem to him." But it is not in our power to be of one quality or another; for this comes to us from nature. Therefore it is natural to us to follow some particular end, and therefore we are not free in so doing.

On the contrary, It is written (Sirach 15:14): "God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel"; and the gloss adds: "That is of his free-will."

I answer that, Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain. In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without judgment; as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack knowledge. And some act from judgment, but not a free judgment; as brute animals. For the sheep, seeing the wolf, judges it a thing to be shunned, from a natural and not a free judgment, because it judges, not from reason, but from natural instinct. And the same thing is to be said of any judgment of brute animals. But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought. But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things. For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments. Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one. And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will.

Reply to Objection 1. As we have said above (81, 3, ad 2), the sensitive appetite, though it obeys the reason, yet in a given case can resist by desiring what the reason forbids. This is therefore the good which man does not when he wishes--namely, "not to desire against reason," as Augustine says.

Reply to Objection 2. Those words of the Apostle are not to be taken as though man does not wish or does not run of his free-will, but because the free-will is not sufficient thereto unless it be moved and helped by God.

Reply to Objection 3. Free-will is the cause of its own movement, because by his free-will man moves himself to act. But it does not of necessity belong to liberty that what is free should be the first cause of itself, as neither for one thing to be cause of another need it be the first cause. God, therefore, is the first cause, Who moves causes both natural and voluntary. And just as by moving natural causes He does not prevent their acts being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary: but rather is He the cause of this very thing in them; for He operates in each thing according to its own nature.

Reply to Objection 4. "Man's way" is said "not to be his" in the execution of his choice, wherein he may be impeded, whether he will or not. The choice itself, however, is in us, but presupposes the help of God.

Reply to Objection 5. Quality in man is of two kinds: natural and adventitious. Now the natural quality may be in the intellectual part, or in the body and its powers. From the very fact, therefore, that man is such by virtue of a natural quality which is in the intellectual part, he naturally desires his last end, which is happiness. Which desire, indeed, is a natural desire, and is not subject to free-will, as is clear from what we have said above (82, 1,2). But on the part of the body and its powers man may be such by virtue of a natural quality, inasmuch as he is of such a temperament or disposition due to any impression whatever produced by corporeal causes, which cannot affect the intellectual part, since it is not the act of a corporeal organ. And such as a man is by virtue of a corporeal quality, such also does his end seem to him, because from such a disposition a man is inclined to choose or reject something. But these inclinations are subject to the judgment of reason, which the lower appetite obeys, as we have said (81, 3). Wherefore this is in no way prejudicial to free-will.

The adventitious qualities are habits and passions, by virtue of which a man is inclined to one thing rather than to another. And yet even these inclinations are subject to the judgment of reason. Such qualities, too, are subject to reason, as it is in our power either to acquire them, whether by causing them or disposing ourselves to them, or to reject them. And so there is nothing in this that is repugnant to free-will.

Article 2. Whether free-will is a power?

Objection 1. It would seem that free-will is not a power. For free-will is nothing but a free judgment. But judgment denominates an act, not a power. Therefore free-will is not a power.

Objection 2. Further, free-will is defined as "the faculty of the will and reason." But faculty denominates a facility of power, which is due to a habit. Therefore free-will is a habit. Moreover Bernard says (De Gratia et Lib. Arb. 1,2) that free-will is "the soul's habit of disposing of itself." Therefore it is not a power.

Objection 3. Further, no natural power is forfeited through sin. But free-will is forfeited through sin; for Augustine says that "man, by abusing free-will, loses both it and himself." Therefore free-will is not a power.

On the contrary, Nothing but a power, seemingly, is the subject of a habit. But free-will is the subject of grace, by the help of which it chooses what is good. Therefore free-will is a power.

I answer that, Although free-will [Liberum arbitrium--i.e. free judgment] in its strict sense denotes an act, in the common manner of speaking we call free-will, that which is the principle of the act by which man judges freely. Now in us the principle of an act is both power and habit; for we say that we know something both by knowledge and by the intellectual power. Therefore free-will must be either a power or a habit, or a power with a habit. That it is neither a habit nor a power together with a habit, can be clearly proved in two ways.

First of all, because, if it is a habit, it must be a natural habit; for it is natural to man to have a free-will. But there is not natural habit in us with respect to those things which come under free-will: for we are naturally inclined to those things of which we have natural habits--for instance, to assent to first principles: while those things which we are naturally inclined are not subject to free-will, as we have said of the desire of happiness (82, 1,2). Wherefore it is against the very notion of free-will that it should be a natural habit. And that it should be a non-natural habit is against its nature. Therefore in no sense is it a habit.

Secondly, this is clear because habits are defined as that "by reason of which we are well or ill disposed with regard to actions and passions" (Ethic. ii, 5); for by temperance we are well-disposed as regards concupiscences, and by intemperance ill-disposed: and by knowledge we are well-disposed to the act of the intellect when we know the truth, and by the contrary ill-disposed. But the free-will is indifferent to good and evil choice: wherefore it is impossible for free-will to be a habit. Therefore it is a power.

Reply to Objection 1. It is not unusual for a power to be named from its act. And so from this act, which is a free judgment, is named the power which is the principle of this act. Otherwise, if free-will denominated an act, it would not always remain in man.

Reply to Objection 2. Faculty sometimes denominates a power ready for operation, and in this sense faculty is used in the definition of free-will. But Bernard takes habit, not as divided against power, but as signifying a certain aptitude by which a man has some sort of relation to an act. And this may be both by a power and by a habit: for by a power man is, as it were, empowered to do the action, and by the habit he is apt to act well or ill.

Reply to Objection 3. Man is said to have lost free-will by falling into sin, not as to natural liberty, which is freedom from coercion, but as regards freedom from fault and unhappiness. Of this we shall treat later in the treatise on Morals in the second part of this work (I-II, 85, seqq.; 109).

Article 3. Whether free-will is an appetitive power?

Objection 1. It would seem that free-will is not an appetitive, but a cognitive power. For Damascene (De Fide Orth. ii, 27) says that "free-will straightway accompanies the rational nature." But reason is a cognitive power. Therefore free-will is a cognitive power.

Objection 2. Further, free-will is so called as though it were a free judgment. But to judge is an act of a cognitive power. Therefore free-will is a cognitive power.

Objection 3. Further, the principal function of free-will is to choose. But choice seems to belong to knowledge, because it implies a certain comparison of one thing to another, which belongs to the cognitive power. Therefore free-will is a cognitive power.

On the contrary, The Philosopher says (Ethic. iii, 3) that choice is "the desire of those things which are in us." But desire is an act of the appetitive power: therefore choice is also. But free-will is that by which we choose. Therefore free-will is an appetitive power.

I answer that, The proper act of free-will is choice: for we say that we have a free-will because we can take one thing while refusing another; and this is to choose. Therefore we must consider the nature of free-will, by considering the nature of choice. Now two things concur in choice: one on the part of the cognitive power, the other on the part of the appetitive power. On the part of the cognitive power, counsel is required, by which we judge one thing to be preferred to another: and on the part of the appetitive power, it is required that the appetite should accept the judgment of counsel. Therefore Aristotle (Ethic. vi, 2) leaves it in doubt whether choice belongs principally to the appetitive or the cognitive power: since he says that choice is either "an appetitive intellect or an intellectual appetite." But (Ethic. iii, 3) he inclines to its being an intellectual appetite when he describes choice as "a desire proceeding from counsel." And the reason of this is because the proper object of choice is the means to the end: and this, as such, is in the nature of that good which is called useful: wherefore since good, as such, is the object of the appetite, it follows that choice is principally an act of the appetitive power. And thus free-will is an appetitive power.

Reply to Objection 1. The appetitive powers accompany the apprehensive, and in this sense Damascene says that free-will straightway accompanies the rational power.

Reply to Objection 2. Judgment, as it were, concludes and terminates counsel. Now counsel is terminated, first, by the judgment of reason; secondly, by the acceptation of the appetite: whence the Philosopher (Ethic. iii, 3) says that, "having formed a judgment by counsel, we desire in accordance with that counsel." And in this sense choice itself is a judgment from which free-will takes its name.

Reply to Objection 3. This comparison which is implied in the choice belongs to the preceding counsel, which is an act of reason. For though the appetite does not make comparisons, yet forasmuch as it is moved by the apprehensive power which does compare, it has some likeness of comparison by choosing one in preference to another.

Article 4. Whether free-will is a power distinct from the will?

Objection 1. It would seem that free-will is a power distinct from the will. For Damascene says (De Fide Orth. ii, 22) that thelesis is one thing and boulesis another. But thelesis is the will, while boulesis seems to be the free-will, because boulesis, according to him, is will as concerning an object by way of comparison between two things. Therefore it seems that free-will is a distinct power from the will.

Objection 2. Further, powers are known by their acts. But choice, which is the act of free-will, is distinct from the act of willing, because "the act of the will regards the end, whereas choice regards the means to the end" (Ethic. iii, 2). Therefore free-will is a distinct power from the will.

Objection 3. Further, the will is the intellectual appetite. But in the intellect there are two powers--the active and the passive. Therefore, also on the part of the intellectual appetite, there must be another power besides the will. And this, seemingly, can only be free-will. Therefore free-will is a distinct power from the will.

On the contrary, Damascene says (De Fide Orth. iii, 14) free-will is nothing else than the will.

I answer that, The appetitive powers must be proportionate to the apprehensive powers, as we have said above (Question 64, Article 2). Now, as on the part of the intellectual apprehension we have intellect and reason, so on the part of the intellectual appetite we have will, and free-will which is nothing else but the power of choice. And this is clear from their relations to their respective objects and acts. For the act of "understanding" implies the simple acceptation of something; whence we say that we understand first principles, which are known of themselves without any comparison. But to "reason," properly speaking, is to come from one thing to the knowledge of another: wherefore, properly speaking, we reason about conclusions, which are known from the principles. In like manner on the part of the appetite to "will" implies the simple appetite for something: wherefore the will is said to regard the end, which is desired for itself. But to "choose" is to desire something for the sake of obtaining something else: wherefore, properly speaking, it regards the means to the end. Now, in matters of knowledge, the principles are related to the conclusion to which we assent on account of the principles: just as, in appetitive matters, the end is related to the means, which is desired on account of the end. Wherefore it is evident that as the intellect is to reason, so is the will to the power of choice, which is free-will. But it has been shown above (Question 79, Article 8) that it belongs to the same power both to understand and to reason, even as it belongs to the same power to be at rest and to be in movement. Wherefore it belongs also to the same power to will and to choose: and on this account the will and the free-will are not two powers, but one.

Reply to Objection 1. Boulesis is distinct from thelesis on account of a distinction, not of powers, but of acts.

Reply to Objection 2. Choice and will--that is, the act of willing --are different acts: yet they belong to the same power, as also to understand and to reason, as we have said.

Reply to Objection 3. The intellect is compared to the will as moving the will. And therefore there is no need to distinguish in the will an active and a passive will.

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The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province
Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
My questions remain unanswered.

Also, absent proper attribution, you're just plagiarizing Aquinas. (HAHA! Now you don't get to claim you're not guilty of revising previous posts in light of subsequent replies! )

I guess nobody ever accused Christians of being models of academic integrity.
 
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