RIM death watch

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The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
4
76
Except google provides the OS and phone manufacturers provide the actual phone that they're selling, so this guy doesn't know what he's talking about in the first place.

In a sense they are dumping in that originally the cost to manufacture was higher than their cost to deliver. They were able to subsidize the cost off the cash generating abilities of search both mobile and traditional.

The business model of GOOG remains much different however.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
In a sense they are dumping in that originally the cost to manufacture was higher than their cost to deliver. They were able to subsidize the cost off the cash generating abilities of search both mobile and traditional.

The business model of GOOG remains much different however.

Problem is you don't "dump" an operating system for a phone. The manufacturer that created the phones that USE the OS is the one doing the dumping. Google has nothing to do with low priced phones.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
4
76
Problem is you don't "dump" an operating system for a phone. The manufacturer that created the phones that USE the OS is the one doing the dumping. Google has nothing to do with low priced phones.

I don't think you know what the definition of dumping is.

If I give you a license for something that cost me money to make for free that is dumping.

Google gives away the OS that cost them money to make with the idea of making it back later. The handset maker can charge whatever they want; however the idea is if they created the OS handsets would be more expensive, hence the dumping.

Android is subsidized by search with the idea they will grow revenue later. Without search Google would have to charge for android. It artificially brings down the price of Droid phones.

Hardware cost let's say is $500. Software cost to create your own OS is another $100. That's a $600 phone. By licensing the software for nothing that makes the phone $500. If each company had to create their own software, instead of having droid, phones would be more expensive.

Goog needed to give away the OS however otherwise they would be in for another justice department inquiry.

Android is the future of Google; however to get there they definitely gave away a product far below their cost initially and were able to subsidize this with search.
 
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rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
He's a shareholder... and averaging down his cost base as we speak.

India growth from 13-15%... Not exactly a country with people who can afford to swap $500 phones twice a year for shits and giggles.
Small growth in India cannot keep this type of a company afloat. You're cherry picking numbers that fit an outcome you've already decided upon.

Here's what's coming out before BB10: iPhone 5 (probably a fairly major upgrade), Windows 8 tablets and phones (which have some very good business features in them as they are now true Windows NT devices), and about 150 Android phones and tablets.

There's a feedback loop in the mobile industry. If you aren't big enough or don't have enough money to keep you in the game, you will be pushed out. WebOS was a great OS and I still use my $90 Touchpad from the fire sale but it got pushed out. Windows Phone would have been gone by now but Microsoft has money to burn like they did with the Xbox. Nokia was the largest phone maker and almost had the European smartphone market with Symbian. They didn't have any footing in the US though and saw massive drops in Symbian usage share in Europe. They took a major shift in their business while they still could and they could still make it.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0

Seeing Balmer laugh at the iPhone never gets old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U "Right now we're selling millions and millions and millions of phones a year. Apple is selling zero phones a year."

Here's some more up to date stats, http://www.businessinsider.com/presentation-the-state-of-android-2012-6?op=1 Although I think the writer is a Apple fanboy.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
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Interesting.

Leaked information from RIMM says that they intend to release the BB10 in Europe first where they expect a wramer reception. Followed by a US release a few weeks later.

Now for the grain of salt from the leak: Europe release is to be in the first few weeks of January.

Almost sounds liek a PR team made this release so people will think that "oh well, if I only have to wait 2 extra months I will".

Of course rumors also say that RIMs current development processes are beyond suck. Requirments management by "Mr Squishy" type stuff. 4th person info type stuff from a drunk guy in a bar type of basis though.
 
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theevilsharpie

Platinum Member
Nov 2, 2009
2,322
14
81
RIM CEO Thorsten Heins: 'There's Nothing Wrong With The Company' WARNING: Contains flash video with audio
Heins penned his thoughts in an op-ed for the Toronto Globe and Mail on Tuesday:

"Don't count BlackBerry out," Heins started. "In recent weeks, it's become fashionable for pundits and market watchers to alternately eulogize Research In Motion as a fallen pioneer and demonize management for not chopping up the company to sell for parts. As President and CEO of RIM, I understand the frustration and impatience of RIM's shareholders and their eagerness to see the company start to surface the underlying value we all know exists at RIM. But we do not believe RIM is a company at the end. Nor do RIM's current challenges hint at a larger Canadian problem of not being able to sustain successful technology companies."

Heins reminded his audience of BlackBerry's former prominence, and he mentioned that RIM is simply "at the beginning of a transition" to truly mobile computing. Instead, Heins believes RIM's best is yet to come.

"As we prepare to launch our new mobile platform, BlackBerry 10, in the first quarter of next year, we expect to empower people as never before," Heins said. "BlackBerry 10 will connect users not just to each other, but to the embedded systems that run constantly in the background of everyday life -- from parking meters and car computers to credit card machines and ticket counters."

<snip>

 

coloumb

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,069
0
81
We'll see once early next year hits.

I really don't care either way - I hate my Blackberry 9000 [company provided] and honestly would rather have a Windows phone, droid, or iphone instead.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
We'll see once early next year hits.

I really don't care either way - I hate my Blackberry 9000 [company provided] and honestly would rather have a Windows phone, droid, or iphone instead.


Counting down the days until I qualify to replace mine
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
It's hard to believe someone can be so out of touch with reality.

Its his job. Its hard to believe that some people here are so out of touch with that - then again, you didn't really comprehend the Ballmer video you posted earlier, so I'm not that surprised in this case.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Its his job. Its hard to believe that some people here are so out of touch with that - then again, you didn't really comprehend the Ballmer video you posted earlier, so I'm not that surprised in this case.

U MAD BRO!

It's hard to believe you take is so personally, and feel the need to be insulting. You must really love and idolize Steve Ballmer. :wub:
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
U MAD BRO!

It's hard to believe you take is so personally, and feel the need to be insulting. You must really love and idolize Steve Ballmer. :wub:

Hmm - and here I thought I was refuting your post about Thorsten Heins. You guys can't even decide who you think I love more when I refuse to hate the people you hate. Its cute.
 
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theevilsharpie

Platinum Member
Nov 2, 2009
2,322
14
81
Its his job. Its hard to believe that some people here are so out of touch with that.

The CEO's job is to deliver value to shareholders, and a critical part of that job is exercising sound judgment in dealing with the public. Penning an op-ed that's basically the corporate equivalent of "The Fundamentals of the Economy are Strong" a week after delivering quarterly results that fell short of even the most pessimistic predictions is probably not going to achieve the results Hein is looking for.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
The CEO's job is to deliver value to shareholders, and a critical part of that job is exercising sound judgment in dealing with the public. Penning an op-ed that's basically the corporate equivalent of "The Fundamentals of the Economy are Strong" a week after delivering quarterly results that fell short of even the most pessimistic predictions is probably not going to achieve the results Hein is looking for.

Sure, but you also have to take into account what people were just posting in this thread, about employees losing motivation, about shareholders fleeing, etc. You aren't going to rebuild that confidence by saying "yup, we suck, BB10 is going to bomb, what a crappy company we are" in public.

I'm sure he isn't going into meetings with senior management saying all the same things as that op ed, but publicly you have to maintain a positive, enthusiastic front if you want to turn things around.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
All it takes is one product that the public embraces like the iPhone.

If they don't come out with one the public latches on to they are gone, if they do this will be a distant memory.

People especially Americans have been proven to have an extremely short memory (less than 24hrs).
 

D1gger

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
5,411
2
76
My wife can't wait to dump her blackberry. She is jealous of my Nokia 800, but currently is leaning towards the Samsung Galaxy III S with the larger screen. I am so glad I dumped my blackberry two years ago.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Lol... Says the guy that literally shits on everything MS

Read the news. The majority of people have a low opinion of Microsoft's new products.

"Without a doubt, Mr. Ballmer is the worst CEO of a large publicly traded American company today." -Forbes

"Microsoft peaked at $60/share in 2000, just as Mr. Ballmer took the reins. By 2002 it had fallen into the $20s, and has only rarely made it back to its current low $30s value." The stock market apparently isn't too happy with MS either.

Did you read the front page of Anandtech today? Microsoft Loses $6.2B USD on Internet Advertising Bet

Windows 8: Not even Microsoft thinks businesses will use it


It's not just me, it's the majority of consumers. MS is losing in search engines, tablets, and smartphones. Apple and Google are putting out better products.

How do you like your Microsoft Kin? Explain to me why you think it's better than the iPhone or Android?
 

Dominato3r

Diamond Member
Aug 15, 2008
5,109
1
0
"Without a doubt, Mr. Ballmer is the worst CEO of a large publicly traded American company today." -Forbes

"Microsoft peaked at $60/share in 2000, just as Mr. Ballmer took the reins. By 2002 it had fallen into the $20s, and has only rarely made it back to its current low $30s value." The stock market apparently isn't too happy with MS either.

Look at the time period. The whole tech industry was over valued, everyone got hit in one way or another. At the same time it's not like MS has been bleeding money. They are an extremely profitable company.

The article also conveniently left out Azure, their web hosting and scale platform, which iCloud now runs on and has been extremely successful. Also Xbox which is an extremely strong brand and has been turning a profit for a while after the RRoD mess. Office 365, Kinect, hell Windows 7. Those of course wont be accoladed to Ballmer


These are the same people that are still running XP. They'll eventually move on 7, and for MS, what of it? They still get a license sold.

It's not just me, it's the majority of consumers. MS is losing in search engines, tablets, and smartphones. Apple and Google are putting out better products.

You're right. Fortunately for them software isn't only applied in those feilds. PC's still move ~350M in volume every year, I guess the majority of consumers doesn't apply here. Office 2010 has moved something like ~250M, but that won't apply.

How do you like your Microsoft Kin? Explain to me why you think it's better than the iPhone or Android?

I own an Android phone. Kin was probably terrible, I've never used one. I'm not an MS zealot like you probably think I am
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
We can go on forever debating whether RIM of MS is the more dysfunctional company. The bottom line is that MS has structural advantages that allow it to still make lots of money while being dysfunctional. RIM doesn't have that luxury, at least in the consumer space, and its advantages in the enterprise space are not nearly as strong as MS's.
 

dagamer34

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2005
2,591
0
71
Read the news. The majority of people have a low opinion of Microsoft's new products.

"Without a doubt, Mr. Ballmer is the worst CEO of a large publicly traded American company today." -Forbes

"Microsoft peaked at $60/share in 2000, just as Mr. Ballmer took the reins. By 2002 it had fallen into the $20s, and has only rarely made it back to its current low $30s value." The stock market apparently isn't too happy with MS either.

Did you read the front page of Anandtech today? Microsoft Loses $6.2B USD on Internet Advertising Bet

Windows 8: Not even Microsoft thinks businesses will use it


It's not just me, it's the majority of consumers. MS is losing in search engines, tablets, and smartphones. Apple and Google are putting out better products.

How do you like your Microsoft Kin? Explain to me why you think it's better than the iPhone or Android?

The brilliance of Microsoft's strategy is that it literally does not matter how bad Windows is, businesses will not switch to Apple (too expensive hardware) or Linux (too unmanaged). Even if they skip Windows 8, they will still a) pay for a Windows license and for high end corporate customers b) pay yearly service level agreements that lets them get copies of Windows 3.1 if they want.

Windows 8 is clearly not for current business computing. It's doesn't have to be. The real key here is that Windows is only on 1 billion PCs and there are 7 billion people on this planet. If you aren't setting up your operating system to capture the next 6 billion people, you are toast. This is why catering to businesses that they already have (and won't ever leave honestly) by making Windows 7++ has to be the most idiotic strategy ever concocted which I will now denote as the "RIM strategy", which is "keep making the same crap, everyone will love it until a competitor comes along, whisks away your business in less than 5 year and you're done for". The iPad could do to Microsoft what the iPhone did to RIM (and already done to Palm). And there's Android lurking about with it's free software too.

And again, businesses are just now STILL switching to Windows 7. There is absolutely no improvements that could be made to Windows that would get them to buy Windows 8. You could rip out Metro, burn it, add a ton of business features, and they might upgrade in... 7 years because they think Windows 7 is just fine for them. It is pointless to chase markets that already belong to you.

We can go on forever debating whether RIM of MS is the more dysfunctional company. The bottom line is that MS has structural advantages that allow it to still make lots of money while being dysfunctional. RIM doesn't have that luxury, at least in the consumer space, and its advantages in the enterprise space are not nearly as strong as MS's.

There is no debate. Microsoft made $5 billion last quarter. RIM lost $500 million. People have gotten so used to Microsoft that they literally forget they are the 3rd most valuable company by market cap after Apple and Exxon Mobile. the dysfunctional period of Microsoft was 2002-2009 from the launch after XP to the release of Windows 7. I haven't seen them make any major missteps since then (and anyone who mentions the Kin, Verizon basically left them out to dry by requiring smartphone data plans).
 
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