Russia gets Crimea

[cubby1223]

I may not agree with most of what you say TH, but i agree with you here. The media manipulation is complete when you see smart people like eski and warmongers like genx87 coming together and talking about democracy and rule of law.

1. where was the vehemence when Grenada [ and a bunch of south american countries , if you will] was politically made effete and puppet govt installed
2. where was the vehemence when Karzai was propped up with weekly suitcases filled with money from the CIA. so the vaunted democracy is no applicable when it is one of your boys running the govt.
3. where was the vehemence when opposition democratic leaders were harassed , killed by US forces in afghanistan when they wanted to stand against karzai
4. what about the hypocrisy when the US starts negotiating with the "good taliban". These Al Qaeda bastards killed thousands of our young men and these fucking State dep, CIA spooks wants to talk to these bastards and prop up sham elites flown in from the US.
5. The UN mandate for Libya was just to fly over and do recon. It then became bombing, inserting special forces, funding islamic radicals and supprting rebels with weapons and mil advisers. That was not the US mandate. There were barely a pip from the resident neocon warmongers we have on this board, coz it is our boys doing the bombing and killing
6. Lets not even get to Iraq. where are all the turncoats now that wee flown in to iraq. Not sure if anyone still remembers riverbend from baghdad. Here is her last blog posting 10 years after the war. just fcking sad.
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
At the time genx was trotting the war propaganda faithfully from the imperium western media with its tainted journalists, no questioning there of how the US totally ran roughshod over pretty much the entire world to push its agenda and kill a bunch of people and just fycked up that entire region. You can barely hear a squeak from these war mongers now.
7. does anyone remember george Saksahaville , the epic chicken hawk from Georgia. That rentboy who was flown in from the US to start a conflict with Russia is now safely enconced back in the US. why does the US interfere in tiny states near the Russian bear.

The only reason I think is to perpetuate the monstrous funding our MIC gets [surveillance, weapons, military R&D, cushy contractor jobs]. close all the fucking overseas bases, get our kids back home, fund universities, fund technical schools, fund next gen tech [even if only 5% become successful], it is better than bombing places far away and killing people and putting out people in power.

You will now see welshbloke, genx, eski faithfully parrot western media with its dickless journalists [who call themselves journalists but are just whores]

It's interesting how you conveniently have all the answers and counter-examples on hand for any argument, almost as if it's drilled into you daily...

The bottom line is, citizens under western rule have far more freedoms than citizens under Russian rule. You can nitpick the corners all you want, but the big picture is no comparison.

The biggest difference is in voting integrity. Though the U.S. has its share of corruption in the run-up to elections, the actual elections go fairly smoothly for the most part.

Versus:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/w...flaws-in-russian-election.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...td-cheaper-pave-roads-Louis-Vuitton-bags.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary...s-public-anger-at-Putin-Can-he-fix-corruption

 

[cirrrocco]

Or the 500,000 Latvians killed or sent to prison when they invaded in 1942. Same with the Lithuanians, Estonians, and Pols.

Russia: the first and only occupier that you should want!



(not saying that these are the same as Crimea and Ukraine today, but bshole's profound rejection of history to make such statements is rather staggering)

The tatars can strut around all they want. lets talk about native Americans now.. They would sure have been glad it was the Russians that invaded them 300 years ago. At least they wont have been almost exterminated and all their lands taken away. The US did that to the indians and it was not even war

The russians did what they had to do during WW2. people die in wars. do you want to start about the bombing runs done by the B-52's. entire cities were razed, so lets not compare numbers and pick stuff up from 50-60 years ago.

 

[bshole]

Or the 500,000 Latvians killed or sent to prison when they invaded in 1942. Same with the Lithuanians, Estonians, and Pols.

Russia: the first and only occupier that you should want!



(not saying that these are the same as Crimea and Ukraine today, but bshole's profound rejection of history to make such statements is rather staggering)

Dude how far we going back? Remember that America committed genocide on a massive scale when eliminating the original inhabitants of this land. American then started a war with Mexico in order to steal Texas/California from them.

History is in the past. You can judge those actions as you like. None of the people involved in those actions are involved in THESE actions. Judge these actions on their own merits, not on past history.

Et Tu Zin?

 

[cirrrocco]

Treaty says otherwise.

Deal with it.

The treaty also says no interfering in Ukraine [politica, economic]. The US and its lackeys started funding NGO's and the maidan supporters thus voiding the treaty. The russians are now going to ensure that in a few months Ukraine ends up being a land locked country which will again become a leech on the western economy.

The lackeys now have pie in their face who tried to get smart and push NATO against Russia's borders. You will see a energized Russia vetoing any more adventures

The US prolly wont get away with any more Iran , Libya type US mandates anymore.

 

[Genx87]

This is just ridiculous, that guy is a complete nut-job. You would be hard-pressed to find a Russian that is more biased towards Putin. His mere presence makes a mockery of that so called panel of unbiased impartial observers. If that distinguished and honorable persona is of any indication of other members then Putin really assembled a "dream" panel. Even if you tried very hard you can't take any supervision seriously if it has members like Piskorski in its ranks.

I thought Johan Bäckman sounded rather nice(insane). Believing the Finnish started war with the Soviet Union in WWII. He also believed the Fins were going to ethnically cleanse Russians to the Urals. And adores Putin.

 

[Genx87]

I may not agree with most of what you say TH, but i agree with you here. The media manipulation is complete when you see smart people like eski and warmongers like genx87 coming together and talking about democracy and rule of law.

1. where was the vehemence when Grenada [ and a bunch of south american countries , if you will] was politically made effete and puppet govt installed
2. where was the vehemence when Karzai was propped up with weekly suitcases filled with money from the CIA. so the vaunted democracy is no applicable when it is one of your boys running the govt.
3. where was the vehemence when opposition democratic leaders were harassed , killed by US forces in afghanistan when they wanted to stand against karzai
4. what about the hypocrisy when the US starts negotiating with the "good taliban". These Al Qaeda bastards killed thousands of our young men and these fucking State dep, CIA spooks wants to talk to these bastards and prop up sham elites flown in from the US.
5. The UN mandate for Libya was just to fly over and do recon. It then became bombing, inserting special forces, funding islamic radicals and supprting rebels with weapons and mil advisers. That was not the US mandate. There were barely a pip from the resident neocon warmongers we have on this board, coz it is our boys doing the bombing and killing
6. Lets not even get to Iraq. where are all the turncoats now that wee flown in to iraq. Not sure if anyone still remembers riverbend from baghdad. Here is her last blog posting 10 years after the war. just fcking sad.
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
At the time genx was trotting the war propaganda faithfully from the imperium western media with its tainted journalists, no questioning there of how the US totally ran roughshod over pretty much the entire world to push its agenda and kill a bunch of people and just fycked up that entire region. You can barely hear a squeak from these war mongers now.
7. does anyone remember george Saksahaville , the epic chicken hawk from Georgia. That rentboy who was flown in from the US to start a conflict with Russia is now safely enconced back in the US. why does the US interfere in tiny states near the Russian bear.

The only reason I think is to perpetuate the monstrous funding our MIC gets [surveillance, weapons, military R&D, cushy contractor jobs]. close all the fucking overseas bases, get our kids back home, fund universities, fund technical schools, fund next gen tech [even if only 5% become successful], it is better than bombing places far away and killing people and putting out people in power.

You will now see welshbloke, genx, eski faithfully parrot western media with its dickless journalists [who call themselves journalists but are just whores]

So what you are saying is two wrongs make a right? I find it utterly hilarious you talking about journalist whores when your source of information is RT.

 

[cirrrocco]

It's interesting how you conveniently have all the answers and counter-examples on hand for any argument, almost as if it's drilled into you daily...

The bottom line is, citizens under western rule have far more freedoms than citizens under Russian rule. You can nitpick the corners all you want, but the big picture is no comparison.

The biggest difference is in voting integrity. Though the U.S. has its share of corruption in the run-up to elections, the actual elections go fairly smoothly for the most part.

Versus:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/w...flaws-in-russian-election.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...td-cheaper-pave-roads-Louis-Vuitton-bags.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary...s-public-anger-at-Putin-Can-he-fix-corruption

what's you point. Are you telling me Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Pakistan, Haiti, Grenada, Vietnam now have a better standard of living because of the all encompassing american embrace that only delivers death and misery

Whats drilled into you is your belief that American actions are noble and for the upliftment of the mass of humanity around the world. All they want to do is to get three meals a day and live their life without western entanglements. Instead of you have 500 bases, a nation that has killed more life than any other nation in the last 50 years and proclaims itself the beacon of freedom.

The world wants freedom from the raw capitalistic policies of the MIC , MNC combine that is now the US govt.

 

[Texashiker]

How was Russia doing after the banking collapse? Uhmm, Russia was undergoing a catastrophic recession, shrinking at nearly an 8% annual rate, nearly twice that of the Eurozone.

Why do you say so many things that are so obviously stupid?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/01/07/why-russias-economy-isnt-going-to-collapse/

Following quote reminds me of your post,

Hating Russia‘s economy is a full-time job for many people.

Truth hurts dont it,

However, after getting decimated during the worse days of the financial crisis, Russia’s economy has been plugging along with steady and unremarkable growth in the 3-4% range, hardly world beating but actually faster than almost every country in the EU.

 

[Genx87]

And then 2013 happened.

1.4% growth rate and soon to be negative thanks to Putin's joy ride through Crimea.

 

[zinfamous]

Dude how far we going back? Remember that America committed genocide on a massive scale when eliminating the original inhabitants of this land. American then started a war with Mexico in order to steal Texas/California from them.

History is in the past. You can judge those actions as you like. None of the people involved in those actions are involved in THESE actions. Judge these actions on their own merits, not on past history.

Et Tu Zin?

It would be, if the effects of the events I mentioned weren't still being played out in the countries I mentioned, today. You don't hear about it, of course, because places like the Baltics aren't even on your radar. Putin and RT grandstand on a weekly basis about this, however, and have been doing so for years. You still have endemic Russian populations that protest and cry about being "mistreated" ("mistreatment" = not allowing Russian as an official state language in Latvia and being forced to learn the native language...after occupying the place for decades and refusing to leave on independence. This kind of thing would be hilarious if it weren't true)

The "loss" of those occupied territories in 1990 are still deeply felt by USSR sympathizers, especially Putin. Also, go ahead and conveniently forget the Estonians and Lithuanians that were killed by Gorbechev's tanks the day they declared independence (again), as well as the ~10 border patrolmen that were killed as Soviet soldiers entered Latvia that morning.

Gorbechev and his pals may have wanted Glasnost, but they never accepted the Baltics as being a part of that bargain.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-01-11/news/mn-8285_1_presidential-rule/2

Of course you would know that as KGB at the time, Putin was involved in those actions. Are you saying he isn't involved today?

As a teenager, my SO stood on the streets in her home town as Gorby's tanks entered, already knowing that they had killed citizens in neighboring Lithuania the day before.

Do you think that is "past history" and beyond significant for everyone living there today?

here's what I think: You have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[fskimospy]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/01/07/why-russias-economy-isnt-going-to-collapse/

Following quote reminds me of your post,

Truth hurts dont it,

All that information was contained in the links I gave you.

Do you not understand how to read? You asked how Russia's economy was doing during the financial crisis as if it was outperforming the EU. It did not.

As I also mentioned, btw, Russia's economy is now forecasted to return to recession. The EU economy is not growing well at all, but Russia's position now looks to be even worse. Interesting by the way that he predicts short to medium term growth for Russia's economy when now that's basically been thrown out the window.

Truth hurts, don't it

 

[cirrrocco]

So what you are saying is two wrongs make a right? I find it utterly hilarious you talking about journalist whores when your source of information is RT.

I find it interesting that i have called you warmonger three times in this thread and the last and you have yet to refute. For a minute lets forget about whores in the media , lets talk about moral prostitution, you who did not give a shit about UN resolutions 10 years ago come back now and talk about rule of law.

I know who's the emperor with the new clothes here

Lets get back to media lapdogs,

You believe assholes like david gregory , wolf blitzer, [lets not even get to fnc] who are epic scum bags who didnt say anything against the US war drum rolling . All they did was we are going to war and I am going to be embedded in some poor military guys unit. The whole rush to war was like a movie trailer every fucking night and you have the temerity to say the US media is "fair and balanced"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xObacZAPk8w

 

[fskimospy]

I find it interesting that i have called you warmonger three times in this thread and the last and you have yet to refute. For a minute lets forget about whores in the media , lets talk about moral prostitution, you who did not give a shit about UN resolutions 10 years ago come back now and talk about rule of law.

I know who's the emperor with the new clothes here

Lets get back to media lapdogs,

You believe assholes like david gregory , wolf blitzer, [lets not even get to fnc] who are epic scum bags who didnt say anything against the US war drum rolling . All they did was we are going to war and I am going to be embedded in some poor military guys unit. The whole rush to war was like a movie trailer every fucking night and you have the temerity to say the US media is "fair and balanced"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xObacZAPk8w

What do your criticisms of the US media have to do with your acceptance of news from what is undeniably a Russian state media propaganda outfit?

You know that's what Russia Today is, right? Saying that people are lying to you from one direction is hardly a reason to accept obvious lies from another.

 

[Broheim]

The tatars can strut around all they want. lets talk about native Americans now.. They would sure have been glad it was the Russians that invaded them 300 years ago. At least they wont have been almost exterminated and all their lands taken away. The US did that to the indians and it was not even war

The russians did what they had to do during WW2. people die in wars. do you want to start about the bombing runs done by the B-52's. entire cities were razed, so lets not compare numbers and pick stuff up from 50-60 years ago.

in 1921 the Soviet union confiscated food and starved 100k Crimean tatars to death, from 1917 to 1933 half the Crimean Tatars we're deported or killed. In 1944 the rest were forced from their homes at gunpoint and packed into freight cars to watch their children and sick die on the journey. The deportation killed almost half of the remaining Tatars and many of the survivors ended up as slaves in the Gulags. They weren't allowed to return to Crimea until the mid 80's. They aren't "strutting around" they're crying their eyes out because they're starring down the barrel of another genocide.

 

[cirrrocco]

It would be, if the effects of the events...

zin - answer the question .

1 which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 10 years
2 which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 20 years
3. which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 30 years
4. which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 40 years
5. which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 50 years

what i find astounding is you and many others believe what the US is doing in Ukraine is its god given right to meddle. who the fuck are we to first try to expand NATO's borders , meddle and pay polemicists in Ukraine, abrogate the treaty with legerdemain and not expect Russia to push back.

 

[bshole]

Do you think that is "past history" and beyond significant for everyone living there today?

here's what I think: You have no clue what you are talking about.

I may have no clude, but I know that Putin's grandfather was Stalin's chef. I bet you didn't know that.

 

[fskimospy]

zin - answer the question .

1 which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 10 years
2 which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 20 years
3. which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 30 years
4. which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 40 years
5. which nation has killed most people outside its borders in the last 50 years

what i find astounding is you and many others believe what the US is doing in Ukraine is its god given right to meddle. who the fuck are we to first try to expand NATO's borders , meddle and pay polemicists in Ukraine, abrogate the treaty with legerdemain and not expect Russia to push back.

Considering the fact that this referendum is an attempt to put Crimea within a country's borders, maybe we should look and see what country has killed the most people within its borders in the last 50 years.

Or hell, within its borders for all of human history. There is no greater butcher of its own people than Russia. Crimeans beware.

 

[cirrrocco]

What do your criticisms of the US media have to do with your acceptance of news from what is undeniably a Russian state media propaganda outfit?

You know that's what Russia Today is, right? Saying that people are lying to you from one direction is hardly a reason to accept obvious lies from another.

Eski, I believe RT the same way as i believe MSM in the US. I get your point. I am not disputing there.

Not sure why you believe that I trust RT more than i trust other new media. yes I did post a few RT links, but that was just to post what the other side is posting. Hope you are having a good day bud.

 

[cirrrocco]

in 1921 the Soviet union confiscated food and starved 100k Crimean tatars to death, from 1917 to 1933 half the Crimean Tatars we're deported or killed. In 1944 the rest were forced from their homes at gunpoint and packed into freight cars to watch their children and sick die on the journey. The deportation killed almost half of the remaining Tatars and many of the survivors ended up as slaves in the Gulags. They weren't allowed to return to Crimea until the mid 80's. They aren't "strutting around" they're crying their eyes out because they're starring down the barrel of another genocide.

And?? dude at that time that was par for the course. The British killed 4 million indians [dots] in one summer and i bet not one shit was given. you know there was 6 million jews killed over WW2 but no one gave a shit about the 4 millions Indians dead over just one hot summer. it has been completely white washed.

That's what great powers did those days.

Nice sig.. lol

 

[zinfamous]

Eski, I believe RT the same way as i believe MSM in the US. I get your point. I am not disputing there.

Not sure why you believe that I trust RT more than i trust other new media. yes I did post a few RT links, but that was just to post what the other side is posting. Hope you are having a good day bud.

do you even understand the difference in bias between political leanings of US MSM outlets, compared to state-funded propaganda of RT?

They aren't even comparable. It is beyond sad for anyone to put the same levels of trust in both types of sources, as if they were somehow comparable.

No one is here to defend the deplorable actions of the US in their 19th-20th century expansionist and quasi-colonial escapades, but that really has nothing to do with this but your simply providing an unrelated distraction that ignores the actual topic.

 

[Texashiker]

As I also mentioned, btw, Russia's economy is now forecasted to return to recession. The EU economy is not growing well at all, but Russia's position now looks to be even worse. Interesting by the way that he predicts short to medium term growth for Russia's economy when now that's basically been thrown out the window.

This Crimea and Ukraine issue is a long way from being over.

Lets not count the Russian economy down and out just yet.

I look for this to get a lot worse before it gets any better.

 

[cirrrocco]

your simply providing an unrelated distraction that ignores the actual topic.

Let's distill to the actual topic

1. There was a budapest agreement that pretty much said, Ukraine gives up Nukes, and US, UK, Russia wont interfere politically , economically and if some changes that, the treaty is void
2. fast forward 15-20 years, we have a color revolution funded by US AID and other assorted CIA fronts a couple pf years ago. That was put down
3. a few months ago, EU out of nowhere with all the goodness in its heart tells the president, you join us we will love you long timr
4. President didn't want the EU embrace and chose Russia. EU got miffed and the maidan protests started. [documented funding links with western countries] which contravenes the budapest treaty
5. Govt is dissolved because an agreement was signed but the brownshirts didnt want to wait two months and stormed the castle and took control.
6. They right away banned russian [spoken by more than 50% of population], removed russian versions of govt websites, installed their own oligarchs ,
7. crimea was going to be changed to a oblast which means it liquidates its status as a autonomous republic
8. Russians could not wait anymore as their double red line was enroached.
9. They moved in and took control of crimea
10. western lapdogs are crying about rule of law now

 

[Broheim]

And?? dude at that time that was par for the course. The British killed 4 million indians [dots] in one summer and i bet not one shit was given. you know there was 6 million jews killed over WW2 but no one gave a shit about the 4 millions Indians dead over just one hot summer. it has been completely white washed.

That's what great powers did those days.

Nice sig.. lol

The UK isn't invading India and the Germans aren't forcing the jews back into concentration camps. Britain isn't out to rebuild the empire and there isn't a new Hitler in charge of a new reich. Apples to oranges.

 

[fskimospy]

Let's distill to the actual topic

1. There was a budapest agreement that pretty much said, Ukraine gives up Nukes, and US, UK, Russia wont interfere politically , economically and if some changes that, the treaty is void
2. fast forward 15-20 years, we have a color revolution funded by US AID and other assorted CIA fronts a couple pf years ago. That was put down
3. a few months ago, EU out of nowhere with all the goodness in its heart tells the president, you join us we will love you long timr
4. President didn't want the EU embrace and chose Russia. EU got miffed and the maidan protests started. [documented funding links with western countries] which contravenes the budapest treaty

A lot of this is simply wrong. The Ukraine-EU association agreement had been in process for approximately two years at the time of rejection by the former Ukrainian president. The idea that they just suddenly showed up with this agreement is not accurate.

If you believe that providing funding and influence to political activity in Ukraine is a violation of the budapest agreement then Russia breached that agreement a long time ago.

5. Govt is dissolved because an agreement was signed but the brownshirts didnt want to wait two months and stormed the castle and took control.

Adopting the Russian propaganda term of calling the Ukrainian government fascists isn't helpful.

6. They right away banned russian [spoken by more than 50% of population], removed russian versions of govt websites, installed their own oligarchs

This is also untrue. They most certainly did not ban Russian, they removed a preferential status for Russian. Those are definitely not close to the same thing.

7. crimea was going to be changed to a oblast which means it liquidates its status as a autonomous republic
8. Russians could not wait anymore as their double red line was enroached.
9. They moved in and took control of crimea
10. western lapdogs are crying about rule of law now

Yes, the rule of law is important. Putin was crying about the rule of law a few months back with Syria. His blatant hypocrisy is on display for everyone to see now.

 

[WelshBloke]

And?? dude at that time that was par for the course. The British killed 4 million indians [dots] in one summer and i bet not one shit was given. you know there was 6 million jews killed over WW2 but no one gave a shit about the 4 millions Indians dead over just one hot summer. it has been completely white washed.

That's what great powers did those days.

Nice sig.. lol

If you're arguing that Britain would be in the wrong to invade a province of India tomorrow I'd agree with you, in the same way I think Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine.