I clicked this to disagree with you, that both have the same standard of behavior, but on reflection you are correct. Cops are entrusted with authority, lethal force, and the presumption of being in the right. With this must come a higher standard of behavior.
One other point though: If I'm crossing the street and a truck runs the light, I don't go running toward it screaming that it must respect my authority and my right to be in that crosswalk; I get out of the way and note his tag number. Same with cops. Honor the threat and keep your cool even if you are seething inside. If there is a problem, file a complaint later.
Agreed. We really need to recruit for and train for better conflict deescalation.Agreed 100%. As a general rule, it's not advisable to mouth off to a cop. That's regardless of race, but especially so if you're black. I get that some people just have poor social skills, and even if Bland had poor social skills and should have been more accommodating, the overwhelming reality is that she deserved far better, given her ultimate demise.
....As a general rule, it's not advisable to mouth off to a cop. That's regardless of race, but especially so if you're black.
I think that last sentence perfectly encapsulates the problem of ethnic relations in the USA today. "But especially so if you are black".
Your 'general' rule still needs a sub-clause, for warning blacks, not to expect equal treatment!
Only when that sentence seems absurd have we made any progress.
In short, your general rule only works for white folks!
Blacks are still in the 'back of your bus'. They are black, and should not expect much fair or decent treatment from racist cops...
Of course, you hope for much more....
Oh trust me, I didn't write that sentence for any reason other than it represents reality in this country. Blacks aren't treated as well by cops are whites or non-black residents are in general. There are countless stats and experiments that show this irrefutably, essentially.
So yes, it's unfortunate and hopefully will one day be absurd to even utter.
Yes, the non-whites things is critical. It doesn't matter if you aren't black, non-white gives another 5 points to the aggression rating. Not to minimize the problem suffered by white people - the 19 year old kid shot for being a kid was white.
I'm still shocked by this article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...er-partially-paralyzed-after-frisk-goes-awry/
It hits *really* close to home because I have elderly relatives that can easily be in that situation. My parents are the same age as the man who was beaten down. They walk around the neighborhood. They know English, but arent confrontational, and can panic. It *really* rattled me. An old guy, not knowing english, in a middle class neighborhood, a part of a community (legal immigrant Indian) that's known for not being troublemakers was slammed to the ground for NOT BEING ABLE TO SPEAK ENGLISH. Giant WTF. This shit doesn't even happen in the third world I'm from.
And the police department's comment?
“did not meet the high standards and expectations”
W.T.F
Sure, he was fired, and sure the family is going to score on the lawsuit, but you know what? I don't give a rat's ass about that officers fate or the blood money reparations the taxpayers will make, because there's one dad who's in the hospital potentially paralyzed. It's just not worth it.
I want the pathetic human scum cop apologizers to go talk to that man in the hospital and argue like they're doing now, about how he should have been polite and respectful and done what the officer says, and he would have been OK. Tell him he shouldn't have escalated the situation. If he had only done that he wouldn't be in the hospital. Look him in the eyes and tell him that.
They're two different incidents? No! Your enabling and victim blaming in every situation has resulted to this, you fucking sociopaths.
Agreed, but we must all live in the world we have rather than the world we prefer. As long as cops are more likely endangered by blacks - worse, as long as cops feel they are more endangered by blacks - then blacks as a group need to exercise more caution around cops. Same occasionally for whites - if cops are canvassing for a serial killer, as a middle aged white male I realize I will be under more scrutiny than my black neighbor.I think that last sentence perfectly encapsulates the problem of ethnic relations in the USA today. "But especially so if you are black".
Your 'general' rule still needs a sub-clause, for warning blacks, not to expect equal treatment!
Only when that sentence seems absurd have we made any progress.
In short, your general rule only works for white folks!
Blacks are still in the 'back of your bus'. They are black, and should not expect much fair or decent treatment from racist cops...
Of course, you hope for much more....
I just joined that, but so far most of the suspicious characters have been white.Truly disgusting. I wonder what that "concerned neighbor" who described Patel as a "skinny black guy" thinks about the consequences of their prejudice now? Hell, the neighbor may not even think they were prejudiced. You should see some of the shit that's said on Nextdoor, the neighborhood app. It's amazing how often you'll get a post, especially in affluent neighborhoods, about "suspicious-looking" people almost always being identified as black when asked for further details.
It's really amazing how many pathetic hothead cops with no social skills exist in this country.
I just joined that, but so far most of the suspicious characters have been white.
Freakin' worthless ap, I'll say that.
I would guess most of the reports of suspicious people are from 80 year old busy bodies that look out the window all day and just recently finally stopped calling them "colored folk" and think the app is monitored by a control center down at the station.
Then again I'm a cynical asshole.
The ones I remember are for a man purporting to be collecting for the murdered Marines and a guy selling magazine subscriptions. I don't think race was mentioned initially in either, although make and color of automobile was noted.
That is part and parcel of being a competent adult. If one cannot be an adult and as a result loses one's life, a Darwin Award is in order.
I think race was eventually mentioned as people asked for descriptions of the people. If memory serves anyway, I've deleted the messages.Race wasn't mentioned? But your in the south and everyone knows race is the only thing that matters down there to y'all. Everyone knows you're all racists, we wouldn't be told so everyday if it wasn't true.
I do agree that cops must have a higher level of responsibility, but at the end of the we are each responsible for our own behavior. We should also remember that if we show our asses to a cop, our results are likely to be poor.And all that we are saying, and you even agreed a few posts back, that cops should be held to a higher standard of "being an adult" in these situations. They are trained and paid professionals at dealing with agitated, aggravated, irrational and sometimes violent people.
If the cop had acted like an "adult" he wouldn't have got all pissy that she didn't put her cig out, would have had her sign the warning and sent her on her way. The entire incident should have ended right there. There was absolutely zero reason to escalate it into a potentially (and eventually) situation that required violence. Zero, non, zip, zilch, nada.
Could the lady have put her cig out and ended the encounter? Of course she could have but again she isn't the trained professional that has been granted authority and the duty to use that authority in a responsible way that best benefits society.
We are quite literally arguing if the two parties had the exact same responsibilities to act as "adults" and I maintain that no they do not. The officer has a far greater responsibility to maintain his composure and as you said act like an adult. It doesn't alleviate the responsibilities of the other party, it simply places a greater burden on the officer.
I think race was eventually mentioned as people asked for descriptions of the people. If memory serves anyway, I've deleted the messages.
I do agree that cops must have a higher level of responsibility, but at the end of the we are each responsible for our own behavior.
We should also remember that if we show our asses to a cop, our results are likely to be poor.
I concur. Do you think her action of not putting out her cig, which was not a lawful order from the officer but a simple request, should have caused the officer to escalate the situation?
-snip-
Not really, but I'm not surprised it did. Cops don't get a lot of training in conflict de-escalation, they get a lot of training in conflict resolution. Cops are hired and trained for a specific purpose - to protect the public by enforcing the law. I do think they should be held to a higher standard of conduct; I don't think they should be forced to be treated like crap. If your cigarette is bothering someone - anyone in close proximity to you - then assuming you aren't in a smoking room, for fuck's sake be a decent human being and put it out. Don't expect to be an asshole and have the world make allowances for you. And ESPECIALLY don't expect to be an asshole and have a cop make allowances for you, 'cause chances are really, really good that he's an even bigger asshole AND that he's had a worse day.I concur. Do you think her action of not putting out her cig, which was not a lawful order from the officer but a simple request, should have caused the officer to escalate the situation?
Again, I concur. We all know what is likely to happen. The question is should it when dealing with professionals trained exactly for those types of situations?
I concur. Do you think her action of not putting out her cig, which was not a lawful order from the officer but a simple request, should have caused the officer to escalate the situation?
Again, I concur. We all know what is likely to happen. The question is should it when dealing with professionals trained exactly for those types of situations?
In the military, before being sent to patrol foreign villages one is ideally first put through training where people masquerading as indigenous try every way in the world to make one lose one's cool. The idea is not only to learn the necessary de-escalation techniques and to winnow out those who simply cannot be trusted in that situation, but also so that when the Marine encounters a hostile beloved patriot, he or she has already experienced worse. Cops definitely need this kind of training, for the same reasons. I don't know for sure that it would have helped Bland, but as she didn't start out showing her ass, I assume it would have defused the situation. She'd be alive and doing her new job, and this cop would be on his patrol without a giant red target on his back. Win-win.No, if an officer can't handle someone refusing to put out their cig n their own car they obviously can't handle the stress of real danger and deadly situations and can't be trusted with the authority, to uphold the law, and carry a firearm.
What I don't understand is why she was in jail for 3 days. Her family or friends could have wired the money to a local Bail Bondsman and she could have been out the same day or following morning. Her bond was $500 so the Bail Bondsman would have required $50 to bail her out.
Maybe they didnt know? Maybe the police didnt give her an opportunity to contact anyone. Because yeah I would have been out of that jail right after being booked.
One of the other inmates said the reason Bland was so depressed was because no one would take or return her phone calls. Evidently she did not have a credit card either, to bail out herself. It was initially hard for me to understand why she would be so despondent over such a bullshit charge, but look at that coupled with her recent history. Evidently she was something of a hot mess, slowly disintegrating over the last year, so I suppose she had won out her welcome among the same friends and family who are now so outraged on her behalf. Hopefully this makes some of us think twice about dodging yet another distress call from that loved one who is always in crisis. It truly could be a matter of life or death. In Bland's case, she saw her new beginning being ripped away.Uhh I think you should look at the jail video, she made at least 5 or 6 calls.
Should it or not?
IDK, but as a middle class white guy who occasionally smokes when I've been pulled and a cop says put it out you better do so, I don't care what race/demographic you're from. I wouldn't dare argue it.
And I don't why. maybe it's because they don't like being refused, having their authority questioned, they're concerned you're trying to hide some other smell (alcohol/pot) or they're just the usual rabid anti-smoking type that freaks if cig smoke gets near them.
I.e., I see nothing 'special' about her treatment.
Fern
Not really, but I'm not surprised it did. Cops don't get a lot of training in conflict de-escalation, they get a lot of training in conflict resolution. Cops are hired and trained for a specific purpose - to protect the public by enforcing the law. I do think they should be held to a higher standard of conduct; I don't think they should be forced to be treated like crap. If your cigarette is bothering someone - anyone in close proximity to you - then assuming you aren't in a smoking room, for fuck's sake be a decent human being and put it out. Don't expect to be an asshole and have the world make allowances for you. And ESPECIALLY don't expect to be an asshole and have a cop make allowances for you, 'cause chances are really, really good that he's an even bigger asshole AND that he's had a worse day.
Put it this way: We have freedom of assembly. Smart people do not exercise this right in the lion exhibit. Cops are tame predators we hire to protect us from other predators; they are not here to sooth us or help us improve our self-esteem. The sheep dog will take a lot more abuse than will the wolf, but at the end of the day he hasn't forgotten being a wolf and he will bite if provoked.