Save the children? Yes? No?

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: beyoku
Re-Read what i said: "These Countries Needs TRADE"
I didn't say anything about handouts nor did I say handouts = Trade.
I am paraphrasing a Ghanaian President who said "We need Trade, NOT Aid."
We are thinking along the same idea. I am unsure how your misunderstood what i was trying to say. :?

You were agreeing with Mill who believes in handouts. If you're for trade (which I am) then handouts damage that and you should be disagreeing with Mill.

I've rarely met a person as obtuse, selfish, and downright stupid as yourself. Justify your barbaric viewpoint all you want. I hope you never ever need help with *anything* because if you do you are a hypocrite.

I've been destitute and never taken charity, so blow me.

You are a liar. Everyone at one point in their life has taken charity or a handout. That's what children do. Why do you think you were fed as a child? I doubt you were out killing your own food and growing fields of maize.

Get off your idealistic highhorse. You want others not to have what you have simply because of where they were born.

So children taking from their parents is charity? Then these Haitians should get off their asses and provide their own damn children with some charity.

And fuck you with your attention whore bullshit, I've never done any such thing. I state my opinion. If your too sensitive to understand that people might disagree with you that's your problem Mr. My-Wife-Is-South-American-So-I-Understand-Everything-About-Life.

Talk about an attention whore. Nobody cares about you or your wife.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Why does anyone here have an issue with anyone voluntarily donating to charities? Isn't that part of the same liberty and freedoms that you people argue to protect whenever you complain about social services? Don't you see the hypocrisy? It is as clear as day.

Your stupidity is clear as day. People are free to do whatever they want with their money. That's what this discussion is about.

Actually no people are not. A good portion of us pay taxes, and a good portion of those taaxes already go to "help the poor".

Which is precisely why I dont donate 1 damn penny to any charity, jar or bell ringer.

You are referring to federal aid though and this is concerning charity. They are not in any shape or form the same thing and you should not relate the two. How many more times do I have to point that out?

The real problem here is that too many people are reminded of their hatred towards social services when the idea of charity comes up. How can one possibly compare the two? Yes, they are both giving money to people that do no work for it, but it is 100% voluntary and not guaranteed to be continuously received by law so people cannot rely on it the same way they rely on welfare.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
You are referring to federal aid though and this is concerning charity. They are not in any shape or form the same thing and you should not relate the two. How many more times do I have to point that out?

The real problem here is that too many people are reminded of their hatred towards social services when the idea of charity comes up. How can one possibly compare the two? Yes, they are both giving money to people that do no work for it, but it is 100% voluntary and not guaranteed to be continuously received by law so people cannot rely on it the same way they rely on welfare.

Federal aid IS charity, if by a different name. At the end of the day its the SAME thing, only difference being who issues the check to cover the cost of business.
In one example the money comes from Uncle Sugar and on the other hand the money comes from <insert charity>. You think the people getting free food give a damn where it comes from?

By the same token, I already give money to charities. Its called "taxes" and frankly I dont care if the whole continent of Africa starves to death, I wont give 1 penny more then I already "donate".

 

[KMFJD]

Perhaps the French should help a bit more seeing as they helped to impoverish that country (Haiti)

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Xavier434
You are referring to federal aid though and this is concerning charity. They are not in any shape or form the same thing and you should not relate the two. How many more times do I have to point that out?

The real problem here is that too many people are reminded of their hatred towards social services when the idea of charity comes up. How can one possibly compare the two? Yes, they are both giving money to people that do no work for it, but it is 100% voluntary and not guaranteed to be continuously received by law so people cannot rely on it the same way they rely on welfare.

Federal aid IS charity, if by a different name. At the end of the day its the SAME thing, only difference being who issues the check to cover the cost of business.
In one example the money comes from Uncle Sugar and on the other hand the money comes from <insert charity>. You think the people getting free food give a damn where it comes from?

By the same token, I already give money to charities. Its called "taxes" and frankly I dont care if the whole continent of Africa starves to death, I wont give 1 penny more then I already "donate".

No, they are not the same thing and I really don't mind that you choose to not donate. You have the freedom to make that choice just as much as I have the freedom to make my own choice, but that really doesn't have much to do with this thread either. People are arguing in this thread that international aid in the form of food from genuine charities (no corruption) some how harms a country's economy. I disagree with that for several reasons, but one of them is that they are never massive like the US welfare program and they are never constant like it either. The farmers in Haiti will have no problem selling their food. They will not have to compete with charity.

Some key differences:

1. Federal aid is required by law to be paid by the tax payers and charity is not.
2. Federal aid is guaranteed by law to always be available to those who qualify and charity is not.
3. Federal aid has a constant massive amount of guaranteed funding to support the program and charity does not.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: beyoku
Re-Read what i said: "These Countries Needs TRADE"
I didn't say anything about handouts nor did I say handouts = Trade.
I am paraphrasing a Ghanaian President who said "We need Trade, NOT Aid."
We are thinking along the same idea. I am unsure how your misunderstood what i was trying to say. :?

You were agreeing with Mill who believes in handouts. If you're for trade (which I am) then handouts damage that and you should be disagreeing with Mill.

Where does it say that I agree with Mill?
I only commented that Mill is giving his OPINION based on what he actually knows of the Developing Nation of Haiti. He seems to be well informed about Haiti. OTOH most Americans do NOT seem to be well informed regarding developing nations be cause they:
1) Haven't ever been to any developing nations and possibly not even not out of the US.
2) They don't contribute to charity.
-Not that they should do either.

I basically attempted to inform Mill that he could be wasting his breath because most people would rather blame it on "Corruption" or hint notions that the PEOPLE are genetically inferior. I then went on to comment on both of those ideas based on 4 of the countries have have visited, one of which i traveled extensively. These countries DO have money, and i can point you to studies that SHOW these "poor Countries" hold real estate that has a "value" greater than all Aid that they have possibly been given in 100 years. -Their countries LAWS are not such that they could get a "loan" against those assets the same way I can get a loan against MY assets in the US to start a business. This is a huge issue. Again i dont even know why you are projecting arguments against me.

 

[ruu]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Now imagine these issues next century when the population has doubled. Will farmland have doubled? No, it remains the same. Therefore you're trying to give a finite resource to an infinitely expanding demand.

At some point population growth has overcome natural resources and death is the natural result. Perhaps the true calling of an advanced civilization is successful control over its own growth.

Only China has even attempted to solve this, yet their attempt has largely failed. The rest of the planet continues to endure the results of overpopulation without even attempting to recognize the problem. We ourselves are extremely guilty by creating social programs that require 30% growth each generation to pay for the previous generation?s social services.

We are living beyond our means, and some day this will come to an end. Other nations just don?t have the raw resources to delay the inevitable as we have done. Here?s the real pickle, each amount that we send to them will be an amount we do not have for ourselves when our population hits that magic number. As soon as those resources become needed over here, Haiti will once again be without our aid and support as we fight starvation in America many years from now.

So you have to look at a couple things.

1: Is Haiti overpopulated?
2: Should we foster a dependence on us while we cannot indefinitely give them our support?

Perhaps by feeding them today we foster further population growth there which will result in even more people dying from starvation tomorrow.

This x 100000000000.

But, at the same time, human beings' lives are not infinite, and a starving human being will not wait 50+ years for the eventual stabilization of the government/economy/aid programme/environment. On the same note, it's difficult to ignore these people's problems because we feel compassion and empathy and the desire to help now.

At what point do we draw the line between right now and in the future? Right now, it would be cruel not to help these people. But if we continue to sustain their unsustainable (population) growth, in the future, we will all suffer. Who really wants to make that call?

Also, consider that if they all stopped having children, the age distribution of their populace would become imbalanced, which would affect their labor force.

 

[Mill]

So children taking from their parents is charity? Then these Haitians should get off their asses and provide their own damn children with some charity.

Yes, they are starving because they are lazy. You are brilliant. It has been pointed out to you many times that much of Haiti's problems do not stem from a lazy populace but rather historical issues (largely exacerbated by foreign intervention so that they could be exploited). Furthermore the situation is dire right *now* because of the amount of Tropical Storms and Hurricanes that have crossed Hispaniola -- largely over the Haitan side.

Your argument is that we should leave them to die from the effects of the Hurricanes because you claim they are lazy and overpopulated. These are the same tired arguments that have been used by racists and followers of eugenics for hundreds of years. Your thoughts are as old as the history we are talking about.

Finally, you insisted that you've never needed anyone to lift a finger for you your entire life. Your situation as a child was not unique in comparison to those from Haiti. If your parents had not provided you with food you would have starved as well yet you try to act as if you are superior. The only thing "superior" about you is that you were born in a wealthy nation -- something you had zero control of it. So spare me your self-righteous bullshit about how hard you have worked and how you have never gotten any help from anyone. You grew up in one of the wealthiest nations in the world with first-rate medical care, decent schools, good infrastructure, bountiful amounts of food and a powerful position in the world. You'd have to be a mouth-breathing moron to fuck all that up and end up starving. You have certainly been handed a massive advantage and "charity" in your life so I suggest you STFU instead of appearing like more of a fool.

And fuck you with your attention whore bullshit, I've never done any such thing. I state my opinion.

Why did it hit such a nerve if it isn't true? It seems to me that you like to take controversial (and bitter) positions just so you can argue. Either that or this thread weighed heavy on your conscience and you felt the continued need to justify your position even though the position you have taken is illogical and selfish.

If your too sensitive to understand that people might disagree with you that's your problem Mr. My-Wife-Is-South-American-So-I-Understand-Everything-About-Life.

My wife doesn't post here and she wasn't mentioned in this thread. I can only assume you are just a gigantic pussy since you prefer to attack my wife instead of my argument. You must be a really small man to go off on someone's wife -- how cowardly and pathetic for someone who claims to be a grown man that doesn't need help.

Talk about an attention whore. Nobody cares about you or your wife.

I would love to know what it has to do with this thread. I rarely post here. Nothing in this thread or the other thread had anything to do with my wife. I suggest you leave her alone or you will find my foot up your ass.

 

[Modelworks]

Haiti has really never had a fair chance at developing.
It has always been occupied, overtaken, or corrupted by others.

 

[BoberFett]

Bring it on eToughguy. I don't take controversial positions, I state my opinion. As I said, if you don't like it too fucking bad. So if you're going to call me out and label me an attention whore you and your mail-order wench can expect to get it right back.


Your personal attacks on Mill and a number of other people in this thread are totally unwarranted, no matter how you feel about them or their positions. Find a way to disagree with them without resorting to this kind of attack.

Rainsford
AnandTech P&N Moderator

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Bring it on eToughguy. I don't take controversial positions, I state my opinion. As I said, if you don't like it too fucking bad. So if you're going to call me out and label me an attention whore you and your mail-order wench can expect to get it right back.

Again, what does my wife have to do with this thread? I think you have some deep-seated issues.

 

[BoberFett]

Nothing to do with this thread. Everything to do with your attention whoring.

 

[ProfJohn]

Haiti is one of only two North American countries where French is an official language. That explains everything!!

 

[Brainonska511]

Seems like some people don't understand the concept of a poverty trap or even have the capacity for compassion.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Seems like some people don't understand the concept of a poverty trap or even have the capacity for compassion.

e-hardasses who have never seen real struggles calling for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people because of unforeseen circumstances. Thankfully some people aren't animals.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Haiti is one of only two North American countries where French is an official language. That explains everything!!

lame

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Seems like some people don't understand the concept of a poverty trap or even have the capacity for compassion.

We call those people Libertarians. Proud members of the "Fuck You, I've got mine" division of spoiled children.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Seems like some people don't understand the concept of a poverty trap or even have the capacity for compassion.

We call those people Libertarians. Proud members of the "Fuck You, I've got mine" division of spoiled children.

And proud of it. It could be worse. I could be like you.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Seems like some people don't understand the concept of a poverty trap or even have the capacity for compassion.

We call those people Libertarians. Proud members of the "Fuck You, I've got mine" division of spoiled children.

And proud of it. It could be worse. I could be like you.

I would say it could be worse, there could be more people like you, those that don't give a shit about the suffering, through no fault of their own except for the luck of the draw in being born into extreme poverty (living on <$1/day), of their fellow human being.