Securom on Games

[drebo]

nosfe, anyone who has ever loaned or copied a game disk for a friend is a pirate, and we have ALL done that. This is the type of piracy that Securom and other copy protection and activation schemes hope to curb. They know that people who are going to download the thing or buy it from some guy in Thailand are going to do that regardless of what they, the publisher, do.

The people who complain about copy protection are the ones who wish to continue the practice of "sharing" or the ones who want a little less guilt when they download a game.

 

[drebo]

Red Irish, Securom does NOT install itself without letting you know. Everyone, even the youngest, most casual gamers know what Securom is and know that it is on most games. Not only that, but not all iterations of Securom are invasive.

 

[Red Irish]

Drebo, do you think its possible, bear with me here, to criticise Securom and not be a Pirate? I am not a pirate. I do not advocate piracy. I hate Securom and refuse to install it on my system. Do you think that this is a contradictory position?

The companies want to turn any discussion revolving around Securom into a discussion focsuing on piracy. Securom does not prevent piracy and, I would argue, has little or nothing to do with piracy? Therefore, what purpose does it serve? That's a question we should all put to the companies using it.

 

[Red Irish]

I see, so Crysis Warhead, for example, clearly states that Securom will be installed on to the user's system? I assume that the case is the same with Fallout 3? I suppose that those people who have filed class action lawsuits against Electronic Arts simply missed the paragraph referring to Securom that was printed on the back of the box?

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: drebo
Red Irish, Securom is not in and of itself a bad thing. In fact, the very practices of people like you have inspired developers to look for ways of curbing casual piracy. If the problem didn't exist, perceived or otherwise, Securom wouldn't exist. It's as simple as that.

You would not begrudge a furniture craftsman the money he spent building a chair, so why do you complain when game publishers work to protect their work?

No, but I might get a bit angry if I sat on a chair made by the furniture craftsman and a leg broke.

 

[drebo]

I'm obviously not going to bring any sense into this zealotry, so I'm just going to stop.

It's a terrible thing that companies make money. No one should ever make any money and should spend their money to make stuff and give it to me for free and let me do whatever I want with it, because I said so.

There, was that left-wing enough for you?

/fedupwiththisbullshitleftistideologythatseemstobeprevailinginthemindsoftheunwashedmasses.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: drebo
Red Irish, Securom does NOT install itself without letting you know. Everyone, even the youngest, most casual gamers know what Securom is and know that it is on most games. Not only that, but not all iterations of Securom are invasive.

This is simply not true. A lot of the criticism focused on Securom is due to the fact that it installs without the user's knowledge. Moreover, Securom that is purported to act as a simple cd check, as in the case of Fallout 3, has been shown to install registry entries that are not removed after the game is uninstalled. What other crap and for what purpose it leaves on the system is another question that should be put to the companies. This may all appear overly alarmist, but, would you allow an uninvited stranger to stay in your house if he promised not to break anything, even where others told you that he had broken things in their homes?

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: drebo
I'm obviously not going to bring any sense into this zealotry, so I'm just going to stop.

It's a terrible thing that companies make money. No one should ever make any money and should spend their money to make stuff and give it to me for free and let me do whatever I want with it, because I said so.

There, was that left-wing enough for you?

/fedupwiththisbullshitleftistideologythatseemstobeprevailinginthemindsoftheunwashedmasses.

Where and when did criticism levied against Securom become a left-wing issue? Can I criticise Securom without becoming the victim of a McCarthyesque witch hunt? If you feel that what you have written is a justified reaction to the issues that I have expressed in the posts in this thread, or that it represents an accurate summary of my perspective, then I have obviously failed to communicate my point of view. The posts are here for all to read. Discredit me if you wish, that should be an easy task, but if your intention is to discredit attacks on Securom, then you may find yourself faced with a task that is beyond your means.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
I see, so Crysis Warhead, for example, clearly states that Securom will be installed on to the user's system? I assume that the case is the same with Fallout 3? I suppose that those people who have filed class action lawsuits against Electronic Arts simply missed the paragraph referring to Securom that was printed on the back of the box?

Warhead clearly states that you require internet connection to activate the game, they did it because it was the most pirated PC game in history, it's really sad- they worked on the concept for 5 years, in fact every graphic whore had an eye on it and this is what people do, they pirate and release it via torrent, they are like digital terrorists- no respect for other people's property. I honestly don't mind DRM after all this.

 

[nosfe]

if you're going to bash something get your facts straight. The most pirated game in "history" is spore despite the fact(or because of it) that it came with one of securoms most insidious versions

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: nosfe
if you're going to bash something get your facts straight. The most pirated game in "history" is spore despite the fact(or because of it) that it came with one of securoms most insidious versions

Spore came after crysis.

 

[nosfe]

so what? go back in time before spore came out and then say it, not now(btw, before spore, the sims series was the most pirated game, not crysis). So tell me, if they put all this copy protection on their games which costs a ton to license and maintain(activation servers don't come cheap) and they still get pirated, why are they still doing it?

 

[WildW]

Originally posted by: drebo
nosfe, anyone who has ever loaned or copied a game disk for a friend is a pirate, and we have ALL done that. This is the type of piracy that Securom and other copy protection and activation schemes hope to curb.

I'm not sure how the law varies from place to place, and I'm not even 100% sure where it stands in my own country, but as far as I'm concerned it isn't piracy to lend a game to somebody, on the like-a-book principle. i.e. no copy is taken, one person has it at a time. You might argue that the developers have only been paid once - well, sorry but that's how the world works for everything else, live with it. I have no issues with copy protection, and I don't copy games, but I do expect to be able to give them away or sell them on when I'm finished with them, just like my DVDs, books, or whatever else I buy.

Nor is it piracy to sell software on second hand. A browse on Wikipedia talks about first-sale doctrine, in the US at least, linky. The software houses keep trying to weasel out of it with EULA terms forbiding resale, but again, my morality tells me that like-a-book should still apply. It's the resale market that things like Securom and Steam are trying to kill off.

I doubt that they're trying to kill off PC gaming completely. EA could just stop making PC games if they wanted.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: nosfe
so what? go back in time before spore came out and then say it, not now. So tell me, if they put all this copy protection on their games which costs a ton to license and maintain(activation servers don't come cheap) and they still get pirated, why are they still doing it?

Copy protection discourages piracy, it is to keep buyers from sharing their copy. I'm not talking about technically aware users- just normal people who goto the store to buy video games. Torrent versions and illegal copies are usually downloaded by couch potatoes who have nothing better to do in their lives.........It's not going to stop- I know plenty of developers in publishing companies who are very rigid about copy protection, consider yourself lucky I'm not like them otherwise this thread would be flamed with anti-piracy ethics.

 

[nosfe]

i've heard that before, but you don't need install limits and what not to prevent casual piracy, there are copy protection systems that don't allow you to copy dvds because it gives you heck knows what errors. We are talking about normal users so this should be enough. I think it's more to do with the fact that the developers/publishers don't know how piracy really works and think that these strict protection schemes really do stop normal pirates. That's why we see them afterwords complaining about piracy even though they shelled out tons of money on copy protection, you don't beat piracy with copy protection, you beat it by making the games worth buying

 

[mindcycle]

This is an important topic. Of course you're going to get people posting on this thread who "haven't ever had any problems with securom", "it's not that big of a deal", etc.. But those of us who have know that it needs to be gotten rid of.

Red Irish, last year I came up with a list of recent games and what DRM they use. The thread also contains descriptions of the different versions of SecuROM. Might be of interest to you and others who don't want SecuROM on their systems.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...ey=y&keyword1=drm+list

 

[pmv]

Originally posted by: drebo
Red Irish, Securom does NOT install itself without letting you know. Everyone, even the youngest, most casual gamers know what Securom is and know that it is on most games. Not only that, but not all iterations of Securom are invasive.

With respect that's an incorrect statement. I've only just realised from the above list that I have securom on my machine, because I have a couple of the (older) games there (which didn't feature on previous lists I've seen). Neither of them said anything at all about securerom, unless it was buried deep in the EULA, indeed when I installed those games I'd never heard of it. I have actually been avoiding at least the 'limited activation' types, and would prefer to have avoided it entirely.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Misinformation? Can you give an example of that? I can accept FUD, but I would state the following:

My only agenda is to make people aware of Securom, attempt to moblize people against this abuse and urge companies to release cheaper games. What's your agenda?

My agenda is to discredit FUD and misinformation with regards to DRM because as a long-time PC gamer, I understand its a necessary inconvenience contributes to the sustainability of the PC game industry. Anyways, I'm not sure how you expect any reasonable individual to take your OP seriously when its laden with such glaring misinformation:

• 2) The EULA may not explicitly state SecuRom is being installed as its form of DRM, but it doesn't need to if you agree to the EULA which states you have read and accepted it for all included software for the game. The checkbox verbage itself is often explicit as it says something like "I accept and agree for this software and all associated components etc."
  
  3) This is one of the few semi-valid complaints, unfortunately these tools are often grey market and borderline legal because they are often used for piracy and illegal production of copyrighted software.
  
  4) Want to provide some proof? I've read a few complaints about optical drives getting eaten by the nasty SecuRom, but your wording and deliberate vagueness are clearly deceptive and overstate the scope of any potential "problem".
  
  5) You can uninstall it manually however its registry keys remain in place necessarily to maintain install history for that machine, which is common for software uninstalls (any trial software does this).
  
  6) LOL. They're clearly scanning yer warez folder. :roll:
  
  7) Really? What statistics have shown this? If anything statistics have consistently shown titles with no DRM at all are punished the worst by piracy (See: World of Goo, Prince of Persia).
  
  8) More misinformaton with no proof whatsoever. I'm sure this is going to do with SecuRom's access to secure OS rings, but again, show a breach of security or file under misinformation.
  
  9) DRM isn't going away, its only going to get more stringent. SecuRom was just the cheapest, most maintenance free way of accomplishing it. There's a reason firms are moving towards more restrictive DRM and not less DRM, its because it works and does deter piracy.
  
  10) Pirates do complain about DRM when it comes to updates, patches, and online play that aren't compatibile with their pirated copies.

As for your agenda, expecting lower prices without first reducing piracy to manageable levels is simply unrealistic. Steam can and has experimented with lower prices recently and I do think they'll be the first to breakthrough with a subscription or episodal content release system with reduced pricing, but the trade-off is that Steam is one of the most invasive and effective forms of DRM available, and certainly moreso than SecuRom.

In any case, your OP is typical of what you'll see from those who look to undermine the merits and effectiveness of DRM to further pro-piracy and anti-DRM arguments. But honestly, I'd love to see exactly what problems the complainants are having with SecuRom, specific titles listed and compared with all titles owned. Again, I'm willing to bet even the loudest complainers have no problem with SecuRom in the overwhelming majority of their games.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Misinformation? Can you give an example of that? I can accept FUD, but I would state the following:

My only agenda is to make people aware of Securom, attempt to moblize people against this abuse and urge companies to release cheaper games. What's your agenda?

My agenda is to discredit FUD and misinformation with regards to DRM because as a long-time PC gamer, I understand its a necessary inconvenience contributes to the sustainability of the PC game industry. Anyways, I'm not sure how you expect any reasonable individual to take your OP seriously when its laden with such glaring misinformation:

• 2) The EULA may not explicitly state SecuRom is being installed as its form of DRM, but it doesn't need to if you agree to the EULA which states you have read and accepted it for all included software for the game. The checkbox verbage itself is often explicit as it says something like "I accept and agree for this software and all associated components etc."
  
  3) This is one of the few semi-valid complaints, unfortunately these tools are often grey market and borderline legal because they are often used for piracy and illegal production of copyrighted software.
  
  4) Want to provide some proof? I've read a few complaints about optical drives getting eaten by the nasty SecuRom, but your wording and deliberate vagueness are clearly deceptive and overstate the scope of any potential "problem".
  
  5) You can uninstall it manually however its registry keys remain in place necessarily to maintain install history for that machine, which is common for software uninstalls (any trial software does this).
  
  6) LOL. They're clearly scanning yer warez folder. :roll:
  
  7) Really? What statistics have shown this? If anything statistics have consistently shown titles with no DRM at all are punished the worst by piracy (See: World of Goo, Prince of Persia).
  
  8) More misinformaton with no proof whatsoever. I'm sure this is going to do with SecuRom's access to secure OS rings, but again, show a breach of security or file under misinformation.
  
  9) DRM isn't going away, its only going to get more stringent. SecuRom was just the cheapest, most maintenance free way of accomplishing it. There's a reason firms are moving towards more restrictive DRM and not less DRM, its because it works and does deter piracy.
  
  10) Pirates do complain about DRM when it comes to updates, patches, and online play that aren't compatibile with their pirated copies.

As for your agenda, expecting lower prices without first reducing piracy to manageable levels is simply unrealistic. Steam can and has experimented with lower prices recently and I do think they'll be the first to breakthrough with a subscription or episodal content release system with reduced pricing, but the trade-off is that Steam is one of the most invasive and effective forms of DRM available, and certainly moreso than SecuRom.

In any case, your OP is typical of what you'll see from those who look to undermine the merits and effectiveness of DRM to further pro-piracy and anti-DRM arguments. But honestly, I'd love to see exactly what problems the complainants are having with SecuRom, specific titles listed and compared with all titles owned. Again, I'm willing to bet even the loudest complainers have no problem with SecuRom in the overwhelming majority of their games.

lol


quoted for historical record.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: drebo
nosfe, anyone who has ever loaned or copied a game disk for a friend is a pirate, and we have ALL done that. This is the type of piracy that Securom and other copy protection and activation schemes hope to curb. They know that people who are going to download the thing or buy it from some guy in Thailand are going to do that regardless of what they, the publisher, do.

The people who complain about copy protection are the ones who wish to continue the practice of "sharing" or the ones who want a little less guilt when they download a game.

So I can install Crysis Warhead on 3 computers before needing more activations, right? That's my PC plus those of a friend or two.
And they don't need to disc to play (because EA decided to make it so you don't).
So I can install, play, lend the disc to a friend who can do the same, and then where is the piracy stopping lending?

I could even sell the game, and the guy I sell to can ring up and ask for more installs.
Where's the stopping of lending? Where is the stopping of resales?
SecuROM doesn't really do most of what people seem to think it does, which in a way makes it even more pointless than you might think, but it also makes it a lot less invasive and evil than people seem to think.
It doesn't do anything particularly harmful or restrictive, so how is it bad for the consumer?
If I wanted to lend, say, a Steam game to a friend, I can't unless I give them access to my whole account and all games, preventing me from using them as well (unless I plan beforehand and put my own computer in Offline mode, preventing me from playing any games on that account online).

 

[Red Irish]

@Chizow, the "long-time PC gamer"

2) "The EULA may not explicitly state SecuRom is being installed as its form of DRM"

I have simply quoted your own statement by way of reply. You go on to state that it doesn't need to. All I can say is that you should contact the lawyers of the people who have filed lawsuits against Electronic Arts and explain that the entire basis of their case is moot. I'm sure that they will listen to you and stop the proceedings.

3) I see, so if Securom causes conflict with software on my system then its my fault because I'm a pirate. Clearly only a pirate would install such software.

4) Proof? I suppose that all those people who have complained about corrupted firmware on their optical drives are simply lying? People in this thread have also complained about the actions of Securom. Finally, the lawsuits filed against Electronic Arts include allegations of corrupted hardware as a result of the actions of Securom. Are they lying too? Of course they are, we're all simply pirates attempting to discredit the poor companies.

5) The fact that you have to uninstall it manually should tell you something. They have tried to hide it. Why does it not simply uninstall along with the game?

6) Have no idea what your talking about here (or indeed, in the rest of your post)

7) Spore torrent downloads, for example. Do I need to go on? Sins of a Solar Empire, ring any bells?

Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

On September 7, 2008 EA released Spore, which uses SecuROM. Despite EA's efforts, Spore has seen relatively substantial rates of illegal piracy among peer-to-peer groups, and with a reported 1.7 million downloads over BitTorrent networks, it was the most-pirated game of 2008

8) http://reclaimyourgame.com/ind...rticle&id=52&Itemid=13

9) Are you an Electronic Arts Executive? You certainly don't sound like a "long-time PC gamer". As far as DRM working, once again I refer you to the Wikipedia quote in point 7.

10) Pirates are too busy playing the game, the way it was meant to be played, without all the hoops and hassles and potentially harmful software.


In short, your entire argument in favour of Securom is that it works, does not necessarily harm your system and anyone who complains about it is a pirate. However, you have no need to worry, you are not on your own here, indeed, the CEO of Electronic Arts has already expressed these sentiments. Perhaps he can give you a job, that is, if he hasn't already.

You seem to think that I am against all forms of DRM. This is not the case. Please do not try to reduce attacks on Securom to a simplistic argument in favour of piracy. You request specific titles: go on to Amazon and look at the reviews for any recently released EA game - those damn pirates, they seem to be sailing their way into all areas of the Internet.

I truly hope that your vision of the future of gaming does not come true, for everyone's sake. In any event, we're both on the record here, each with his respective point of view. Time will put everything in its place. If your predictions are true, all I can say is that I, to a very small extent, fought against this outcome.

Aye, matey, shiver me timbers.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Steam and SecureRom are both DRM, but beyond that nearly everything else about them is contrasting. Steam is very open and upfront about the restrictions and does not conflict with software such as Nero, ISO programs, or codec packs. While it prevents resale of games, Steam also provides a service that many people view as a net benefit. You'll see plenty of posts on these forums mentioning games that were bought separately but then linked to steam later simply to take advantage of those benefits. People like the convenience of digital downloads, absence of CD checks, auto-updating of software, and ability to easily transfer their entire library to as many systems as they want provided they are only playing on one system at a time.

The primary objection a lot of people have with DRM like Securerom is its secretive and highly varying nature. There have been good implementations and bad implementations but as long as it behaves like malware consumers are going to continue to go out of their way to avoid it.

 

[Red Irish]

Electronic Arts, a company known for its infinite wisdom, have actually included Securom on a number of titles released via Steam. Go figure.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
This is an important topic. Of course you're going to get people posting on this thread who "haven't ever had any problems with securom", "it's not that big of a deal", etc.. But those of us who have know that it needs to be gotten rid of.

Red Irish, last year I came up with a list of recent games and what DRM they use. The thread also contains descriptions of the different versions of SecuROM. Might be of interest to you and others who don't want SecuROM on their systems.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...ey=y&keyword1=drm+list

Cheers

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Thanks for this topic, Red Irish. Well-written and informed.

I am utterly shocked that several people are simply unable to distinguish opposition of SecuROM from supporting piracy. (Well, not so much of a shock in chizow's case.) SecuROM is destructive, unwanted malware and the issue is totally removed from the arguments about piracy. To those who disagree, I can personally attest that the SecuROM installation as part of a 100% legitimate copy of Battlefield 2142 hosed my optical drive. If I were a pirate, this would not have affected me. EA lost my sale not because I chose to participate in copyright infringement, but because of their own poor choice of DRM.