Battlefield 2142 didn't hose my optical drive, but it did, however, not allow me to play the game at all, while the DVD was in the drive, it kept on saying that it wasn't a valid DVD. Great protection, eh?
Originally posted by: mindcycle
Yeah, no use arguing with chizow. Anyone opposed to DRM is a pirate in his eyes. What he fails to realize is it's not the pirates who are experiencing issues with SecuROM.
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
I refuse to buy games with SecuROM because:
1. It installs secret software on your computer without your consent or knowledge, and this software is hidden in every nook and cranny of your system and very difficult to remove. This is almost a textbook definition of malware.
2. With the limited number of installs, registration servers, etc., you are essentially just renting the game. What happens if the company goes under? A power outage? The servers get shut down? Do you really think if a company is going under, they are going to patch a game so it removes the DRM? Did Microsoft do that with the MSN Music Store and PlaysForSure (LOL)?
3. It violates our RIGHT (yes, RIGHT...as in law) of First Sale.
4. There is no need for it, as all it does is screw over the honest customer. The pirates will get theirs anyway. Spore, for example, was out on the torrents what...a week before release?
DRM is bad. It is marketed as a way to protect a company's property, and lots of people buy this PR bullcrap. In all honesty, what it is is controller the content that the user paid good money for. That is all the company's care about...control the content as much as possible and give the end-user as little for their money as possible. If I pay $50 for a game, I own that game. No, I don't own the art, the music, the code, etc., but I own that physical copy of the game. I can sell it, install it on my computers as many times as I want, install it in 2057, etc. That is my right as a consumer. DRM is essentially stripping us of our basic rights as consumers, and people are buying it!
Mind-boggling.
Originally posted by: zerogear
Well, DRM is obviously not intent on preventing piracy, but instead, passing discs around to friends to install and play, while that is fine, I think a basic CD-Check will do that just fine. I rather put my CD in my drive every time than have to deal with Securom.
Also, it is quite evident that they're also trying to prevent used games sales, which encroaches on our rights to resell.
People like chizow just enjoy being bent over and raped up the ass by software companies, while saying everything is just peachy. Just because it doesn't affect you, doesn't mean it won't affect everyone else.
Its obvious you didn't read the link I provided in the Capcom thread:I have simply quoted your own statement by way of reply. You go on to state that it doesn't need to. All I can say is that you should contact the lawyers of the people who have filed lawsuits against Electronic Arts and explain that the entire basis of their case is moot. I'm sure that they will listen to you and stop the proceedings.
Nope, its an unfortunate trade-off as imaging and virtualization software are often necessary in order to run pirated software. If this kind of software is mission critical for whatever you need to do on your PC its certainly a negative, but mounting software is mostly a luxury and isn't required if you have the physical media.3) I see, so if Securom causes conflict with software on my system then its my fault because I'm a pirate. Clearly only a pirate would install such software.
LMAO, I asked for proof, not more conjecture and questionable anecdotal evidence. If you're going to use unverifiable personal testimonies I want specific details, like part numbers, system specs and titles of games. For such a "widespread problem" I'd also expect to see a few replies from other users corroborating such testimony with their own experiences.4) Proof? I suppose that all those people who have complained about corrupted firmware on their optical drives are simply lying? People in this thread have also complained about the actions of Securom. Finally, the lawsuits filed against Electronic Arts include allegations of corrupted hardware as a result of the actions of Securom. Are they lying too? Of course they are, we're all simply pirates attempting to discredit the poor companies.
No, the fact it doesn't need to be uninstalled just shows its benign and utterly transparent. Again, the reason it stays installed is to manage install history and prevent any attempt to uninstall and duplicate the game.5) The fact that you have to uninstall it manually should tell you something. They have tried to hide it. Why does it not simply uninstall along with the game?
It was in direct reply to this gem in your OP:6) Have no idea what your talking about here (or indeed, in the rest of your post)
Spore was still the 2nd best-selling PC game of 2008 behind Wrath with ~2 million copies sold by Christmas, which coincidentally mirrored the number of torrented copies of ~1.7m. In fact, most commercially successful PC games still see ~50% piracy rate (MMOs being the exception of course). Sins of a Solar Empire also saw similar sales to piracy ratios despite no SecuRom (it does have DRM though) as it sold ~500k copies and was pirated around ~400k times. That's a stark contrast to World of Goo and Assassin's Creed which reported 80-90% piracy rates with no DRM whatsoever.7) Spore torrent downloads, for example. Do I need to go on? Sins of a Solar Empire, ring any bells?
Here's a quote from Wikipedia:
On September 7, 2008 EA released Spore, which uses SecuROM. Despite EA's efforts, Spore has seen relatively substantial rates of illegal piracy among peer-to-peer groups, and with a reported 1.7 million downloads over BitTorrent networks, it was the most-pirated game of 2008
So again, where's the unauthorized access? You already agreed to such internet access if you agreed to the EULA. Since you seem to have so much energy chasing ghosts, why not redirect your attention to real security issues caused directly by the open nature of p2p networks and file sharing.
No I'm not, but why would you assume EA when your own compiled list shows just about everyone employs SecuRom or has in the past? As a long-time PC gamer, I realize games have had some form of DRM or copy protection for as long as I've bought games. In fact I'd go as far to say current DRM schemes are less intrusive as they don't interrupt my game play experience and require me to dig through a manual or mess with a cryptic pin-wheel.9) Are you an Electronic Arts Executive? You certainly don't sound like a "long-time PC gamer". As far as DRM working, once again I refer you to the Wikipedia quote in point 7.
They get a snapshot of that game at any given time that is often incompatible for online play or rife with bugs, can't be updated with patches or content updates. As someone who actually buys their games, I'd hardly call that "the way it was meant to be played", but to each their own I supposed.10) Pirates are too busy playing the game, the way it was meant to be played, without all the hoops and hassles and potentially harmful software.
No, my point is that Securom is better than nothing, and in many ways its better than the alternatives which are often more restrictive for those who legally purchase their games.In short, your entire argument in favour of Securom is that it works, does not necessarily harm your system and anyone who complains about it is a pirate. However, you have no need to worry, you are not on your own here, indeed, the CEO of Electronic Arts has already expressed these sentiments. Perhaps he can give you a job, that is, if he hasn't already.
So what forms of DRM do you support? Simple CD and key checks are too easy to bypass. Steam is in many ways more restrictive and invasive than SecuRom. MMOs go a step further requiring personal information and a credit card. I think its obvious the Honor System isn't going to work here lol.You seem to think that I am against all forms of DRM. This is not the case. Please do not try to reduce attacks on Securom to a simplistic argument in favour of piracy. You request specific titles: go on to Amazon and look at the reviews for any recently released EA game - those damn pirates, they seem to be sailing their way into all areas of the Internet.
My vision of the future of PC gaming? Where people actually buy their games and show developers and publishers the PC deserves to be the premier gaming platform? Where PC developers are confident enough that their games aren't being stolen, they're willing to offer them at cheaper prices or alternative pricing models? Where game developers are no longer so turned off by piracy on the PC that they actually return to focusing on the PC or at the very least, launch the PC version simultaneously and eliminate console exclusivity?I truly hope that your vision of the future of gaming does not come true, for everyone's sake. In any event, we're both on the record here, each with his respective point of view. Time will put everything in its place. If your predictions are true, all I can say is that I, to a very small extent, fought against this outcome.
Aye, matey, shiver me timbers.
lolOriginally posted by: lupi
lol
quoted for historical record.
LMAO, again, exactly how am I being bent over and raped by software companies, because I actually bought it? I buy the game, I gain access to it. Simple enough transaction. Never had a single problem with SecuRom and I'm willing to bet I have more legally purchased games than just about anyone in this thread. SecuRom is also certainly better than some of the alternatives with regard to resale as you mention, as there is no chance of resale with other forms of DRM like Steam.Originally posted by: zerogear
Well, DRM is obviously not intent on preventing piracy, but instead, passing discs around to friends to install and play, while that is fine, I think a basic CD-Check will do that just fine. I rather put my CD in my drive every time than have to deal with Securom.
Also, it is quite evident that they're also trying to prevent used games sales, which encroaches on our rights to resell.
People like chizow just enjoy being bent over and raped up the ass by software companies, while saying everything is just peachy. Just because it doesn't affect you, doesn't mean it won't affect everyone else.
Compared to the 90% chance you're promoting some anti-DRM/pro-piracy agenda, 100% chance you fail to back up any of your points with actual evidence, and 10% chance of actually recusing yourself from replying after saying so repeatedly. :laugh:Originally posted by: mindcycle
Just a tip guys.. if you ignore him there's a 30% chance he'll go away. Not great, but it's better than nothing. :laugh:
LMAO, again, exactly how am I being bent over and raped by software companies, because I actually bought it? I buy the game, I gain access to it. Simple enough transaction. Never had a single problem with SecuRom and I'm willing to bet I have more legally purchased games than just about anyone in this thread.
SecuRom is also certainly better than some of the alternatives with regard to resale as you mention, as there is no chance of resale with other forms of DRM like Steam.
Nope, its an unfortunate trade-off as imaging and virtualization software are often necessary in order to run pirated software. If this kind of software is mission critical for whatever you need to do on your PC its certainly a negative, but mounting software is mostly a luxury and isn't required if you have the physical media.
Originally posted by: chizow
Compared to the 90% chance you're promoting some anti-DRM/pro-piracy agenda, 100% chance you fail to back up any of your points with actual evidence, and 10% chance of actually recusing yourself from replying after saying so repeatedly. :laugh:Originally posted by: mindcycle
Just a tip guys.. if you ignore him there's a 30% chance he'll go away. Not great, but it's better than nothing. :laugh:
Again, I have to ask, since this subject is "so important" to you and the OP, what problems have you had with SecuRom, exactly?
Originally posted by: Aberforth
If DRM is a threat to privacy then better stop using Google, Windows, Steam, social networking sites and other services as well. I know for instance Google is the biggest legit spyware on earth, like displaying ads based on the content of your email, recording your search phrases and IP address to understand your search patterns, Microsoft collects anonymous info about your pc on a regular basis to combat piracy. Another reason for you to get a mac, I'm sure there are plenty of games to play on it.
Originally posted by: Aberforth
If DRM is a threat to privacy then better stop using Google, Windows, Steam, social networking sites and other services as well. I know for instance Google is the biggest legit spyware on earth, like displaying ads based on the content of your email, recording your search phrases and IP address to understand your search patterns, Microsoft collects anonymous info about your pc on a regular basis to combat piracy. Another reason for you to get a mac, I'm sure there are plenty of games to play on it.
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Ryan, thanks. At least anyone reading over this thread can not claim that they have not been informed, despite numerous attempts to derail the thread and shift it into areas where the Securom apologists appear to be more comfortable.
Originally posted by: Red Irish
You allege that I have failed to provide proof. I have experienced first-hand problems with Securom; however, no proof provided on Internet forums can escape your criticism of ?unverifiable personal testimonies?. Do you expect us all to invite you over for a drink so that you can check things out in person? The fact that you choose to ignore the number of complaints against Securom present on the Internet, or simply dismiss these testimonies as uncorroborated evidence is, quite frankly, insulting. Why do you require more information? Do you want such information in order to assign blame to other components within a given user?s system, or assure us that this particular version of Securom has now been fixed? Do you really think that so many users on so many different sites have simply invented their problems or mistakenly identified Securom as the root of their woes? Other users within this thread have already outlined the problems they have experienced with Securom. You are not listening.
Again, what complaints? LMAO. Unverifiable, anecdotal evidence from Amazon ratings that clearly serve as a platform for an anti-DRM agenda? As for not being convinced I'm not an EA employee....rofl....again, you've listed off the companies that use SecuRom, the fact you're singling out EA just shows you are harboring some vendetta against them.You are simply not listening. Your stance is akin to the posture of the companies employing Securom when they refuse to respond to clients? complaints in relation to this software. I'm still not convinced you are not an EA employee.
So again, what are those concerns and troubling issues that SecuROM has control over on your PC? This really should not be difficult, yet neither you nor the author is able to verbalize what makes SecuROM such an evil security risk. Its existence on your PC isn't evidence of harm, only its actions would be.You provided the following link, which according to you I failed to acknowledge:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/...uit-over-spore-drm.ars
The article, and I assume you have read it rather than simply extracting information in accordance with your point of view, also states the following:
?There are very real and very troubling things about the use of SecuROM and the control it has over your computer.?
Ya, there's no need to mention SecuROM because you're buying a game for the game itself, not the DRM it employs. Some people seem to forget this. If the DRM was behaving outside of its scope, ie. managing your digital rights for that software, you'd have a point, but again, you still haven't demonstrated a problem with SecuROM beyond it simply existing.I have no doubt that many people will attempt to employ the widespread criticism of Securom to their own advantage, with or without grounds; however, this in no way detracts from the validity of arguments against Securom. With regards to the EULA, the companies are not being entirely honest. There is no specific mention of Securom. They justify this by stating that they do not want to disclose the nature of the DRM they employ as this might compromise their protection. However, given that the protection does not work from the outset, and again I direct you to the Wikipedia quote relating to Spore torrent downloads, this practice is, at the very least, highly questionable. I nevertheless agree that the fight against Securom may be damaged by spurious claims in relation to its detrimental effects: there is no need to direct unfounded criticism towards Securom, it does quite enough on its own to warrant the widespread discontent it has engendered.
It absolutely is a trade-off. If a program you voluntarily purchase has known issues and conflicts with SecuROM and vice-versa, you need to decide which program you're going to keep and use, especially when much of that software is considered gray market to begin with. You may have purchased it legally, but the use of it may go against the EULA of any software you plan on using it in conjunction with.You go on to state that, where Securom causes conflict with legitimately purchased software on a user?s system, this is simply an ?unfortunate trade-off? in the war against piracy. I?m sorry, but this is simply unacceptable. Anybody who has experienced problems as a result of Securom can not be simply dismissed as collateral damage. Our discussion involves computers rather than game consoles and any software I purchase should not oblige me to uninstall other software on my system.
LMAO. All that instead of a simple statement of exactly what problems you had with SecuROM. BS-meter 'splodes off the chart. Actually all I was expecting was a simple synopsis of the problem, what hardware and software was involved, what made you think SecuROM was the cause, and what the ultimate outcome or damage was. You know, the typically shit you'd see in a troubleshooting log.You allege that I have failed to provide proof. I have experienced first-hand problems with Securom; however, no proof provided on Internet forums can escape your criticism of ?unverifiable personal testimonies?. Do you expect us all to invite you over for a drink so that you can check things out in person? The fact that you choose to ignore the number of complaints against Securom present on the Internet, or simply dismiss these testimonies as uncorroborated evidence is, quite frankly, insulting. Why do you require more information? Do you want such information in order to assign blame to other components within a given user?s system, or assure us that this particular version of Securom has now been fixed? Do you really think that so many users on so many different sites have simply invented their problems or mistakenly identified Securom as the root of their woes? Other users within this thread have already outlined the problems they have experienced with Securom. You are not listening.
No, my reply was to your statement: 5) The fact that you have to uninstall it manually should tell you something. They have tried to hide it. Why does it not simply uninstall along with the game?You interpret the fact that Securom requires manual de-installation as proof of its ?benign and utterly transparent? nature. Further on in your post you criticise me for not turning my attention towards real security issues caused directly by the open nature of p2p networks and file sharing. Once again, I am forced to state that I own no pirated games and do not advocate piracy. In addition to the obvious moral or ethical objections to piracy, one of the reasons I reject pirated software is that is unsafe, in that it may include Trojans and various forms of hidden malware that could get into my system without my knowledge and subsequently prove difficult to remove. Sounds a bit like the manner in which Securom enters a user?s system, doesn?t it?
So you haven't had any recent problems with SecuROM, got it lol. I'd disagree that SecuROM is hurting game sales the most, if anything people like you are - people who have an agenda and purposefully give games disingenous ratings based on the DRM they employ rather than the quality of the title itself. Again, the overwhelming majority of users simply will never have a problem with SecuROM and won't even know it exists.I am currently experiencing no problems with Securom as I have not purchased any games that include Securom in recent months, nor have I accepted any EULA?s that authorise the installation of Securom. This is the crucial point that you repeatedly fail to take on board: Securom is hurting the gaming industry by dissuading potential game buyers from making purchases. It does not, as you have been forced to acknowledge, have much impact on piracy. Moreover, DRM and Securom are not synonyms as you seem to suggest in your post and any DRM, as far as I?m concerned, should remain on the CD.
You're already leasing the game, read the EULA. Many games have already gone this route, particularly MMOs where your lease expires the month you discontinue payments. I personally don't care for Steam for a variety of reasons even though I don't resell my games. I have no problem with online activations as many allow for key revocation or are automatically disabled by themselves. Either way, I'm willing to accept either form of legitimacy check or even more stringent methods if that means reducing piracy rates and ultimately, lower prices for PC games. Or at the very least, maintaining the status quo with regards to PC title releases.Requiring the user to have Internet connection points us to the real reason behind Securom/Steam: increasing sales by attacking the entirely legitimate practice of reselling your property. The companies deserve criticism for this, unless of course you advocate a world wherein we rent rather than purchase our games. It is ironic that you envisage a future where people actually "buy" their games as a result of the companies being left to their own devices: if Securom prevails, we will all be leasing games.
No I've listened plenty to all the ridiculous arguments throughout the years and its pretty obvious the problems with SecuROM are overstated. Nothing I've said has prevented people like you from documenting your nasty encounters with SecuROM, but that's all a foregone conclusion since the DRM is preventing you from buying the game to begin with. So what we end up with is a lot of text with very, very little substance (see: this entire thread). DRM is not going away. SecuROM was only the cheapest and probably least intrusive method employed, the alternatives are worst in many ways. The sooner you come to grips with this realization the sooner you can decide whether or not you're still a PC gamer.Like the companies, you refuse to listen. You set yourself up as the champion of anti-piracy and legitimately purchased games and use this posture to defend any criticism directed towards Securom. I wish you every success in this endeavour; however, your posture with regards to Securom is doing the pc gaming industry absolutely no favours, you should at least be intelligent enough to acknowledge that where companies try to force something on to the community that is unwanted, their sales will suffer. Piracy?s ability to damage the industry can not be overstated, but the problem is only exacerbated if the companies engage in actions that prevent me and many others from purchasing their games. Particularly where they use piracy as a pretext to attack the re-sale market, irrespective of the detriment caused to paying customers.
Again, that's not entirely accurate as many of these activation-type games may include their own time triggered nullification time bomb, similar to Bioshock. I think Mass Effect has a similar mechanism, which we may see in a month or two (May or so).Originally posted by: zerogear
No one is refuting that you are buying games, but the fact of the matter is, with activation based securom drm, you are at the mercy of the software company. Should they ever decide to shut down their activation servers, due to either lack of resource or interest for that title, or just bankruptcy, you'd be stuck up a creek without a paddle should they not follow up and patch the game so that it won't need the activation servers.
This is by definition a time-bomb for a software that you are supposed to be able to use whenever you want, considering you bought it.
Again, covered above, many forms of SecuROM allow for installs to be returned automatically via uninstall or manually via revocation tool.This thread is about Securom, not Steam. While yes, this is true, having activation within Securom is almost as bad. Since in order to get new activations, you need to provide proof from a valid retailer that you bought the game, which kills the user to user sales.
This only true if you believe in a truly open PC environment, which hasn't been the case for decades if you've run a Windows-based OS. Again, copy-protection and software incompatibility is nothing new on the PC. There is no guarantee anywhere that any two pieces of software are compatible just because they function without issue individually.While this is a luxury, no piece of software should ever tell you you need to UNINSTALL another software in order for it to run, unless it is causing a runtime error, caused by conflict from other processes. Securom could have just put in turn off the emulation software so it doesn't detect it in memory, instead of forcing users to uninstall it.