Securom on Games

[chizow]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Everything you write automatically has no merit because you ASSUME that everyone who is against DRM is a pirate. You are ignorant and not worth debating with.

Uh, no, I wrote that specifically in reply to an individual who has repeatedly claimed he does not pirate games, yet goes out of his way to further pro-piracy viewpoints. Again, if someone spends 5 pages arguing piracy isn't theft even when the law clearly defines it as such while acknowledging its a crime, the obvious conclusion is that he's pushing a pro-piracy viewpoint whether he thinks he is or not.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Proof is only useful to chizow if it can be used to prove his point.

My account of problems with Mass Effect can be found somewhere on these forums, I did a search but couldn't find it. I had constant crash issues and "please insert the correct disc" messages when I first installed it. Anyway, that was the last SecuROM "protected" game i've purchased as it was determined to be a SecuROM issue after going back and forth with tech support, user forums, and me fucking with things for hours. I made it a point to never put myself in that position again. That's why I decided to create the list I linked to earlier in this thread.

To those of you standing up for what you believe in and protesting this nonsensical DRM "solution" I applaud you. It's all to easy to just do nothing an hope things change, but we all know that won't happen without challenging the misinformed idea's people have about these invasive DRM solutions.

Uh, correct disc? Mass Effect only has one disc. If that single disc didn't work, you probably could've narrowed it down to perhaps a defective disc. Or if it was an actual SecuROM problem, perhaps you had some virtualization or CD cloning software installed. In any case, SecuROM clearly doesn't guarantee against user-error or general incompetence.

 

[mindcycle]

I've gathered a short list of links for those of you still undecided about whether or not to be concerned about SecuROM, and I do mean short. Just type securom into google if you want to know what i'm talking about (seriously, just take 10 seconds and actually do that). I've tried to interject an equal amount of anti vs pro (some neutral) SecuROM articles and posts so you can get a clearer picture. It's obviously not perfect, but it's better than nothing. So if you have the time, take a look through some of these links and decide for yourself.

http://www.brighthub.com/video...pc/articles/19232.aspx

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/15418.cfm

http://www.google.com/custom?d...F%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en

http://www.gamersdigest.net/14...patch-removes-securom/

http://www.custompc.co.uk/blog...-trouble-with-securom/

http://www.videogamer.com/news..._not_the_bad_guy.html?

http://www.eurogamer.net/artic...r-explains-gta-ivs-drm

http://talkjack.wordpress.com/...lling-pc-games-part-3/

http://bethblog.com/index.php/...m-only-for-disc-check/

http://reclaimyourgame.com/ind...ticle&id=116&Itemid=57

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2...steam_without_securom/

http://forums.electronicarts.c...ned-about-securom.html

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SecuROM

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/...m/page-98241_25_0.html

 

[Red Irish]

Mindcycle, your last post deserves a standing ovation.

I urge everyone to visit these links and subsequently reach an informed conclusion and I invite any other users to include other links that they feel to be deserving of the community?s attention.

The thread has recently turned into a verbal sparring match between myself, several other users and chizow. I hope that these exchanges have served to illuminate our respective positions with regards to Securom. Bear in mind that both chizow and I have our own agendas: he defends the use of Securom in the face of all possible criticism, whilst I attack the use of Securom at every available opportunity. We have each, to the best of our abilities, attempted to justify our diametrically-opposed postures and any future exchanges will simply regurgitate what has already been said [@chizow, please correct me if you have anything else to add].

If you follow Mindcycle?s advice and visit the links he has posted, I would encourage you all to mull over the following questions once you have read the various articles and responses:

1) Do you think that Securom is creating issues on users? systems?
2) Do you think that Securom is effectively combating piracy or do you feel that it has little or nothing to do with piracy, but rather represents an attempt to control the re-sale trade?3) Do you think that Securom is damaging or protecting the pc gaming industry?
4) Do you think that Securom provides grounds for concern or do you see it as a necessary evil or a practice that deserves your support?

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: Red Irish

1) Do you think that Securom is creating issues on users? systems?
2) Do you think that Securom is effectively combating piracy or do you feel that it has little or nothing to do with piracy, but rather represents an attempt to control the re-sale trade?3) Do you think that Securom is damaging or protecting the pc gaming industry?
4) Do you think that Securom provides grounds for concern or do you see it as a necessary evil or a practice that deserves your support?

I write anti-piracy programs and I will never support this stupid cause, secuROM isn't the root cause of your problem, it exists as a protection software- whether effective or not it definitely combats piracy, blame publishers and thieves.

Privacy concern is the lamest excuse you can come up with- I don't think gamers have legit concerns about privacy when I look at the dozen other stupid things they do. And SecuROM never created any issues on my system.

So I conclude the goal of this topic is to spread f.u.d and create false concerns about DRM. How many other forums are you spreading this fud? Make a list of it - people have the right to know.

 

[Red Irish]

Aberforth, I would suggest that you will gain little support for your cause by referring to other peoples activities as "stupid things" withour specifying what your referring to (please don't take this as an invitation to post an irrelevant list on this thread). Maybe you should get out of the office more often. I posted on Tom's Hardware, only to be informed that it was a dying site and several users redirected me to this site (I'm sure your glad). That's it, no other posts.

Why do you seem so afraid? Let other users follow Mindcycle's advice, visit the links he provided and form their own opinions. That is all I ask.

 

[Aberforth]

man...I hate these single issue activists who register just to spread fud.

 

[Red Irish]

Aberforth, I have never felt strongly enough about an issue before to actually register and begin posting on any site. As a result of Securom there are many others like me. Thanks for making us all feel welcome. You should be commended for sparing no efforts in your attempts to create an atmosphere that generates intelligent and open debate.

Have a nice day

 

[wanderer27]

Red Irish, you're really beating a long dead horse here.

There are several members on these forums that just don't get it, and they never will -that, or they make their living writing this Rootkit crap.

No matter what happens to show how bad this is, these users are going to defend it to their dying breath.
I've posted several threads to this effect (BioShock and/or M.E. fiasco, Orangebox, etc.).

Some people just refuse to be helped - don't waste your time.


SecuROM is a Rootkit, or at the very least it's Malware.
It impacts System performance.
It uses System resources.
It installs clandestinely.
It does not uninstall.
It interferes with other Software.
It is potentially Hardware damaging.

Any one of the above is more than enough reason for me to avoid it.


Look at that list you posted on the first page.
Most of those games, and I mean >95% of them, are nothing but total crap.
I think that in itself speaks volumes about SecuROM.

 

[zerogear]

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, that's not entirely accurate as many of these activation-type games may include their own time triggered nullification time bomb, similar to Bioshock. I think Mass Effect has a similar mechanism, which we may see in a month or two (May or so).

Otherwise, many games are starting to include revocation tools or automatically return installs when you uninstall the game. Some developers have also stated they have contingincies in place to patch out install limits in the event they go defunct (Steam has said similar).

Many is not all.

Again, covered above, many forms of SecuROM allow for installs to be returned automatically via uninstall or manually via revocation tool.

See above.

This only true if you believe in a truly open PC environment, which hasn't been the case for decades if you've run a Windows-based OS. Again, copy-protection and software incompatibility is nothing new on the PC. There is no guarantee anywhere that any two pieces of software are compatible just because they function without issue individually.

The fact of the matter is this 'incompatibility' was purposefully implemented to come up, its not a programming error. That, in itself is unacceptable.


In the end chizow, you can go on and continue buying your Securom games, and I'll keep on abstaining from buying those games. Am I depriving myself of gaming? Maybe, but I'm also saving myself of headaches of spending time to get around the DRM schemes/DRM removal.

And I'm saving money

 

[pmv]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
If DRM is a threat to privacy then better stop using Google, Windows, Steam, social networking sites and other services as well. I know for instance Google is the biggest legit spyware on earth, like displaying ads based on the content of your email, recording your search phrases and IP address to understand your search patterns, Microsoft collects anonymous info about your pc on a regular basis to combat piracy. Another reason for you to get a mac, I'm sure there are plenty of games to play on it.

None of those are comparable (except possibly Steam).

I don't use social networking sites partly for that reason (also because I really don't see the point of them). Google can only record what you choose to send it, I don't care if it stores my search terms, if I did I wouldn't use it. I don't use Google email either.

And Windows does not require you to be on the internet to continue working. Even XP activation can be done over the phone.

Anyway its a futile argument. If the PC games industry wants to commit slow suicide by using DRM methods that lose customers (I will never buy anything that requires on-line activation) that's up to them really. People are free to make a bit of noise so the industry will realise it is losing sales, but if they don't care they don't care.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: wanderer27
Red Irish, you're really beating a long dead horse here.

There are several members on these forums that just don't get it, and they never will -that, or they make their living writing this Rootkit crap.

No matter what happens to show how bad this is, these users are going to defend it to their dying breath.
I've posted several threads to this effect (BioShock and/or M.E. fiasco, Orangebox, etc.).

Some people just refuse to be helped - don't waste your time.


SecuROM is a Rootkit, or at the very least it's Malware.
It impacts System performance.
It uses System resources.
It installs clandestinely.
It does not uninstall.
It interferes with other Software.
It is potentially Hardware damaging.

Any one of the above is more than enough reason for me to avoid it.


Look at that list you posted on the first page.
Most of those games, and I mean >95% of them, are nothing but total crap.
I think that in itself speaks volumes about SecuROM.

exactly.

also those saying unistall and you get a install back. when i got bioshock that didnt work.


securom is a waste. it only hurts people who legally buy the game. its to the point im willing to buy the game and donwnload the ISO. at least then its stripped of the bulllshit

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

I would just like to ask why proponents of SecuROM seem to take this so personally. You truly seem to have some stake in its existence. When presented with real accounts of problems with this software, you wax philosophical about the benefits of DRM in general, the apparently always-acceptable tradeoffs inherent in copyright protection schemes, and the pitiful nature of pirates, all while ignoring the real problems that legitimate customers have experienced. Not only that, but when faced with valid criticisms, you focus on Red Irish's member status? Lame. Please tell me what makes SecuROM so special to defend it against all naysayers -- naysayers who have not even made general claims against DRM or advocated piracy in any way.

 

[zerogear]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I would just like to ask why proponents of SecuROM seem to take this so personally. You truly seem to have some stake in its existence. When presented with real accounts of problems with this software, you wax philosophical about the benefits of DRM in general, the apparently always-acceptable tradeoffs inherent in copyright protection schemes, and the pitiful nature of pirates, all while ignoring the real problems that legitimate customers have experienced. Not only that, but when faced with valid criticisms, you focus on Red Irish's member status? Lame. Please tell me what makes SecuROM so special to defend it against all naysayers -- naysayers who have not even made general claims against DRM or advocated piracy in any way.

Because its chizow

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: zerogear

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I would just like to ask why proponents of SecuROM seem to take this so personally. You truly seem to have some stake in its existence. When presented with real accounts of problems with this software, you wax philosophical about the benefits of DRM in general, the apparently always-acceptable tradeoffs inherent in copyright protection schemes, and the pitiful nature of pirates, all while ignoring the real problems that legitimate customers have experienced. Not only that, but when faced with valid criticisms, you focus on Red Irish's member status? Lame. Please tell me what makes SecuROM so special to defend it against all naysayers -- naysayers who have not even made general claims against DRM or advocated piracy in any way.

Because its chizow

Well, yes, his behavior is expected. But we shouldn't commit the same mistake he does by dismissing his position simply because it disagrees with ours or because he holds it. I genuinely want to understand the motivations of the community to support SecuROM because I would change my position if I saw it had any kind of overriding value compared to the rampant problems reported and even personally experienced by me.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: wanderer27
Red Irish, you're really beating a long dead horse here.

There are several members on these forums that just don't get it, and they never will -that, or they make their living writing this Rootkit crap.

No matter what happens to show how bad this is, these users are going to defend it to their dying breath.
I've posted several threads to this effect (BioShock and/or M.E. fiasco, Orangebox, etc.).

Some people just refuse to be helped - don't waste your time.


SecuROM is a Rootkit, or at the very least it's Malware.
It impacts System performance.
It uses System resources.
It installs clandestinely.
It does not uninstall.
It interferes with other Software.
It is potentially Hardware damaging.

Any one of the above is more than enough reason for me to avoid it.


Look at that list you posted on the first page.
Most of those games, and I mean >95% of them, are nothing but total crap.
I think that in itself speaks volumes about SecuROM.

Hi Wanderer, unfortunately you are entirely correct. This thread, like so many others, will fall upon deaf ears and quickly fade away into oblivion, without having achieved anything: chizow, Aberforth, you can relax now and refrain from accusing everyone of being a big fat pirate. However, people like chizow and Aberforth are not my targets: they clearly appear to have a vested interest in the continued application of Securom and nobody is going to convince them that they are wrong. Nevertheless, I feel we have a moral responsibility, even armed with the knowledge that our actions serve little or no purpose, to continue to provide coverage of this issue. Securom is affecting just about everyone now, but not everyone is aware that this is the case. The kid tugging on his mother's coat when he sees a shiny new game in a department store deserves some sort of response from forums such as Anandtech when he brings the game home, only to find that it causes a series of problems and that he can not pass it on to his friend once he's finished with it. The vague EULA on the back of the box only becomes his concern when his new toy fails to function as it should. At the very least, the same kid should be provided with a medium via which to vent his frustration, if nothing else.

 

[Aberforth]

I post this because I don't like people spreading F.U.D to carry out their own hidden agenda. As a gamer myself, I'm only trying to tell users that DRM does not cause problems to the end-users, only in exceptional scenarios when the protection is unreasonable it might be true just like any other annoyances.

SecuROM FAQ

2.1 How does SecuROM? interact with the Internet?

SecuROM? is available in two formats: disc-based and online activation-based. The disc version does not use any Internet connectivity for operation. The online activation-based system, SecuROM? Product Activation, uses an Internet connection to request a license for the desired application. No personal information is collected, stored, or transmitted during this or any SecuROM? process.

Both the disc-based system and SecuROM? Product Activation technologies can be combined. Different configuration options are available to the publisher.

2.2 Is SecuROM? actually loaded onto my computer?

SecuROM? is a DRM system used by software publishers to protect their intellectual property. In the course of applying the solution, certain files are placed onto the computer for the system to work properly.

2.3 Does SecuROM? install a driver or any other software at the kernel level ("Ring 0") of my PC?

No, SecuROM? does not install any components or perform any processes at the kernel or ring 0 level. All SecuROM? components and processes occur at ring 3, the normal application level.

2.4 Is SecuROM? harming my computer?

No, SecuROM? does not damage a computer in any way. Great care has been taken to make sure the SecuROM? system is sound and compatible.

2.5 Does SecuROM? decrease the performance of my PC?

No,SecuROM? does not influence PC performance. SecuROM? is a library integrated into the protected application, and recent versions of SecuROM? do not contain any stand alone applications.

Some older versions of SecuROM? install the ?User Access Service?, which allows a user to share DRM licenses among multiple Operating System user accounts. The User Access Service consumes very little memory (a few hundred kBytes) and virtually no CPU power. This service does not cause a performance decrease.

2.6 Does SecuROM? change settings in my anti-virus program?

No, SecuROM? makes no setting changes to any anti-virus program(s), or any software for that matter.

2.7 Does SecuROM? change settings in my firewall?

No, SecuROM? makes no setting changes to any firewall program(s), or any software for that matter.

If a SecuROM? protected application is configured to require an online authentication, firewalls will notice this process and will inform the user that an internet connection is being requested.

Such standard firewall messages do not mean that SecuROM? is opening a network port on the user?s PC for incoming network connections.
2.8 Does SecuROM? open ports on my PC, so that my PC becomes accessible from the internet or from other networks?

No, SecuROM? does not open any ports. SecuROM? online activation connects to the license server with regular, outgoing, encrypted HTTP connections. No backdoor or network port is opened on your PC.

2.9 Can the installation of SecuROM? disable my burning or emulation programs?

No, SecuROM? does not automatically disable any burning or emulation programs. Since some emulation programs can be used to circumvent SecuROM?, it may be necessary for the user to manually disable such programs before a software title protected with SecuROM? can be successfully launched.

2.10 Does SecuROM? disable any other application?

No, SecuROM? will never disable any application. It does, however, look for applications which can be used for malicious or hacking purposes. If it identifies such applications on the PC, it will be necessary for the user to disable them before using the product protected by SecuROM?.

2.11 Does SecuROM? damage my CD/DVD/Blu-ray drive or burner?

No, SecuROM? does not damage any optical drives.

2.12 Does SecuROM? disable my printer or scanner?

No, SecuROM? does not disable any printers or scanners and does not change any settings.

2.13 Does SecuROM? cause my digital camera or camcorder to no longer be recognized?

No, SecuROM? does not change a PC?s ability to recognize a camera or camcorder

2.14 What is a rootkit and does SecuROM? have one?

A "rootkit" can be described as software or a set of software tools intended to conceal running processes, files or system data from the operating system and which can open ports to allow remote access to the system. A "rootkit" makes it possible for viruses or other malicious programs ("malware") to hide content on a user's PC. In this way, a virus or other malware may remain undetected, even if updated anti-virus software is installed. SecuROM? does not use any rootkit technology.

2.15 If SecuROM? does not contain a rootkit, why does my rootkit detector flag SecuROM? as containing a rootkit?

There is no rootkit in SecuROM?. Our understanding is that there is one rootkit detector that incorrectly flags SecuROM? as containing a rootkit. This is an incorrect detection by one software program. To our knowledge, no other rootkit detectors do so.

:music: 2.16 Is SecuROM? spying on me?

No, SecuROM? does not collect any personal information.:music:

Read more: http://www.securom.com/support_faq.asp

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
/snip

Oh joy! A PR piece from the official SecuROM website! :laugh:

Psst...this only hurts you, not helps you, posting that PR fluff piece from the SecuROM site like it means anything.

It's official now...you're either a SecuROM employee or a naive fanboi (of DRM...WTF?)

:disgust:

 

[Aberforth]

oh sure, the company is lying now??

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
oh sure, the company is lying now??

How could I put this so that you will understand it? Let's see: yes. How's that?

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: Aberforth
oh sure, the company is lying now??

How could I put this so that you will understand it? Let's see: yes. How's that?

If a company lies, it qualifies for a class action- go file it.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: Aberforth
oh sure, the company is lying now??

How could I put this so that you will understand it? Let's see: yes. How's that?

If a company lies, it qualifies for a class action- go file it.

That is a very sound piece of advice.

 

[coloumb]

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: wanderer27
Red Irish, you're really beating a long dead horse here.

There are several members on these forums that just don't get it, and they never will -that, or they make their living writing this Rootkit crap.

No matter what happens to show how bad this is, these users are going to defend it to their dying breath.
I've posted several threads to this effect (BioShock and/or M.E. fiasco, Orangebox, etc.).

Some people just refuse to be helped - don't waste your time.


SecuROM is a Rootkit, or at the very least it's Malware.
It impacts System performance.
It uses System resources.
It installs clandestinely.
It does not uninstall.
It interferes with other Software.
It is potentially Hardware damaging.

Any one of the above is more than enough reason for me to avoid it.


Look at that list you posted on the first page.
Most of those games, and I mean >95% of them, are nothing but total crap.
I think that in itself speaks volumes about SecuROM.

Hi Wanderer, unfortunately you are entirely correct. This thread, like so many others, will fall upon deaf ears and quickly fade away into oblivion, without having achieved anything: chizow, Aberforth, you can relax now and refrain from accusing everyone of being a big fat pirate. However, people like chizow and Aberforth are not my targets: they clearly appear to have a vested interest in the continued application of Securom and nobody is going to convince them that they are wrong. Nevertheless, I feel we have a moral responsibility, even armed with the knowledge that our actions serve little or no purpose, to continue to provide coverage of this issue. Securom is affecting just about everyone now, but not everyone is aware that this is the case. The kid tugging on his mother's coat when he sees a shiny new game in a department store deserves some sort of response from forums such as Anandtech when he brings the game home, only to find that it causes a series of problems and that he can not pass it on to his friend once he's finished with it. The vague EULA on the back of the box only becomes his concern when his new toy fails to function as it should. At the very least, the same kid should be provided with a medium via which to vent his frustration, if nothing else.

Rather than just posting in a forum - why don't YOU...yes... YOU do something about it and start writing/contacting people who can actually do something about it?

False advertising? Better Business Bureaus can probably help with this.
You feel your rights as a consumer are violated? Write to your congress-persons.
You don't like that Best Buy is selling the game - stand out in front of the store and hand out EASY TO READ flyers indicating that some of the software sold in the store are violating your rights as a consumer and install hidden software on their computer.
Email the folks over at G4TV to see if they can drum up a special on SECUROM, add it to their gaming news, etc.

Posting in a forum typically only will be received by inflammatory comments.

 

[Red Irish]

Already working on it, I'll be contacting the defensor del pueblo shortly [Spanish version of the ombudsman] to see if there is anything that can be done at an official level. I'll keep you informed. But bear in mind that next to my mortgage, Securom is not at the top of my list of priorities and I am a very small and insignificant thing in comparison to a series of multinationals. Time is another big factor. My intention was not to give rise to a series of inflammatory comments and I hope it hasn't annoyed you.

 

[zerogear]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: Aberforth
oh sure, the company is lying now??

How could I put this so that you will understand it? Let's see: yes. How's that?

If a company lies, it qualifies for a class action- go file it.

Since when were companies always truthful?