Septic System Debate

[wacki]

I'm in a debate with a very very good high priced lawyer (i.e. not stupid) that is claiming septic systems don't need to be pumped. He has one and it hasn't been pumped in over 20 years. He says he knows because he's been involved in septic system litigation. He says the installers told him if he opens up the tank it kills the anaerobic bacteria. I referenced him to some university websites and he dismissed them with the usual ivory tower comments.

My question is if there is any truth to his claims. I find it very very difficult to believe that these websites are wrong but his tank has gone 20 years without pumping and is still doing fine.

About.com is very good
http://homebuying.about.com/od/septicsystems/

E-how
http://www.ehow.com/how_12211_hire-septic-system.html

New York state website
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/environ/septic.htm
Not sure about the us extension or the credibility of the website. Guessing it's legit.


Wackjob universities
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/henv/SepticSystems.htm
pdf on maintenance (pumping),
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/HENV/HENV-14-W.pdf

additives
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/HENV/HENV-13-W.pdf

BOD (biological oxygen demand) of the bacteria in the system.
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/HENV/HENV-14-W.pdf

http://www.human.cornell.edu/che/TXA/Ou...-Quality/Septic-System-Maintenance.cfm
http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/water/az1160/
http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publications/Soilfacts/AG-439-22/
http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/nsfc/nsfc_septicnews.htm
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD6583.html
http://www.montana.edu/wwwpb/pubs/mt9401.html
http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0740.html

 

[stardrek]

It all really depends on how much solid waste is in the tank but ALL septic tanks need to be pumped at some time, unless they pump themselves that is (into a sewer for example). Avg is 3 to 5 years but some can go as long as 20 or longer depending on the tank size and how effective the bacteria are at making the solid waste pumpable and disperse into the liquid dispatch system.

 

[BDawg]

You'd figure a lawyer's tank would be filling faster than most people's.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: BDawg
You'd figure a lawyer's tank would be filling faster than most people's.

:laugh:

I thought the same thing, then I realized that he gets most of it out in court.

I'm not very familiar with septic systems, but I'm familiar with their equivalent system in the wastewater treatment industry. I would imagine whether the septic system needs to be pumped depends on a lot of things. A short list of factors that might be important:
1. Design of the system (most important factor for sure)
2. Type of wastes (yes, it really would depend on what you eat)
3. Local water table (will affect conditions in the tank and what stays in/leaves)

It is true that opening the tank could kill the anaerobic bacteria. However, these bacteria generally regenerate very rapidly (from zero to fully populated within days, week tops).

 

[DrPizza]

He has one and it hasn't been pumped in over 20 years.

Please let me know if you get to use this line in court:
"Well, of course you haven't needed to have yours pumped out in 20 years. Everyone knows that lawyers are full of ******. The rest of us leave our ****** in the toilets, from which it flows into the septic tank."

edit: forgot the word sh*t is automatically censored.

 

[NeoCorn]

As you are arguing with a lawyer I'm sure he has sound reasoning as to why other persons septic tanks fill up with solids and need to be pumped. Maybe you can get him to tell you why.
My family has a cabin with a septic tank system and it has not been pumped in over thirty years. Of course it doesn't get even one tenth the use of a normal house system. My inlaws house has a septic system which filled with solids and caused a huge mess costing way more to fix than a maintenance pumping would have cost.
My advice is listen to DrPizza, lawyers are a different breed. If you are a regular person and have a septic tank system, get it pumped.

 

[bobsmith1492]

No, they don't need to be pumped very often. The only reason we had to have ours messed with is because it is a dual-tank thing, and the pipe between them got clogged. The drain field comes off of the second tank, so no water was being drained from the tanks. That's the main thing that goes in them - water, and that all gets out. The solid wastes are quite minimal in comparison, and I'm sure bacteria and whatnot do a good job of reducing what's left.

 

[alphatarget1]

They need to be pumped when there is too much crap in it.

 

[FrankSchwab]

A certain percentage of the waste that ends up in the septic tank does not break down. Imagine everything from the dirt you rinse off in the shower, to various indigestible plant bits. Even large sewage treatment plants end up with sludge that their digesters will not break down.

After too many years of not being pumped, the septic tank fills with this undigestible waste. First the primary tank, then the secondary. As this occurs, more and more undigested sewage gets diverted to the leach field; the undigestible waste starts to clog up the drainage paths in the pipes, gravel, and soil that let the wastewater drain out. You end up with a septic system that drains extremely slowly, drains and toilets start backing up because the system is always full of water and there's no place for the new water to go. At this point, you're screwed. You'll probably have to rebuild the leach field to reestablish drainage, as well as pump the septic tank to empty it of the undigestible waste; this costs thousands more than a simple tank pumpout.

 

[nova2]

"I'm in a debate with a very very good high priced lawyer that is claiming septic systems don't need to be pumped."

if he basically said that, hes definitely clueless on several key issues already expressed here.

for example, before I moved, the septic system hadn't been pumped for at least 22 years.

it was around 90 or 95% full in total (two tanks. after I dug up the lids, one had a thick and heavy concrete slab over it, and the other had a super rusted thin piece of weak metal (now replaced)).

luckily, it got pumped before it ever had a chance to drain into the leach field, and create possible problems, like the smell of sewage.

the 'house inspector' would've loved that. maybe, heh.

 

[Witchfire]

Quite simply, if the septic tank and drainage field are of adequate size and sound design to maintain a working level in the tank, then No, you don't have to pump it out. However, if a substance that kills or inhibits the growth of digesting bacteria is added, then pumping out will rapidly become a recurring necessity. The only other reason that a tank might have to be pumped is tree root growth clogging the tanks access to the drainage field.

 

[Googer]

He is wrong. I am having my Tank pumped and the truck is parked in my side yard as we speak.

 

[Witchfire]

No, I'm not wrong. If you have to pump your septic system out, it's because it's not functioning correctly. Either it's undersized for the application, or you're introducing matierials detrimental to it's function. Period.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

He has one and it hasn't been pumped in over 20 years.

Please let me know if you get to use this line in court:
"Well, of course you haven't needed to have yours pumped out in 20 years. Everyone knows that lawyers are full of ******. The rest of us leave our ****** in the toilets, from which it flows into the septic tank."

edit: forgot the word sh*t is automatically censored.

EXCELLENT...

remind them... lawyers are usually single because they have the personality of a doorknob. most people get married and have 3 kids...
5 people generate 5 times as much ****** as just one single lawyer.

 

[wacki]

He has a family of 6

 

[AnthraX101]

Originally posted by: Witchfire
No, I'm not wrong. If you have to pump your septic system out, it's because it's not functioning correctly. Either it's undersized for the application, or you're introducing matierials detrimental to it's function. Period.

That is not correct. As a *sigh* septic tank professional, it must be periodically pumped out in order to remove waste solids to prevent them from getting into the drain field.

Think of it this way, within 1 to 2 weeks of getting your tank pumped, it should once again be "full", at the nominal water line. This means that the tank is at liquid capacity. At this point, the liquid begins seeping out into the drain field and watering the ground. This is the steady state of the septic system, and will continue as long as the water level rises due to new input.

The problem is that the solids are also entering the tank and sinking to the bottom. The naturally occurring bacteria helps to break down these solids and transform them into two main components. One is the liquid and particulate component, which can in turn pass to the drain field, and a "sludge" component which can not. This sludge contains a lot of undigestible mass that will build up over time, gradually raising the floor of the tank.

Eventually this sludge (Along with tissues, bones, and other non-biodegradable masses) will be high enough to enter the drain field. This can not seep out of the pipes. This will cause your drain field to become clogged. This is generally only repairable by replacement of the field.

Proper maintenance is required for a septic system. If not, replacement begins to get costly.

AnthraX101

 

[patentman]

Originally posted by: sao123
remind them... lawyers are usually single because they have the personality of a doorknob. most people get married and have 3 kids...
5 people generate 5 times as much ****** as just one single lawyer.

I'm studying to be a lawyer and I'm married. My wife and I are planning on having our first sometime next year. So although I don't have kids yet, I'm certain I get laid more then you

I agree with the guy above who said if a lawyer is arguing that you don;t have to pump out your septic system, he's got some factual basis for that assertion. That is not to say that you shouldn't pump your septic system out or that septics in general should not be pumped out, just that there is a viable argument to be made that they do not have to be.
Gotta love argument!

 

[wacki]

Originally posted by: Witchfire
No, I'm not wrong. If you have to pump your septic system out, it's because it's not functioning correctly. Either it's undersized for the application, or you're introducing matierials detrimental to it's function. Period.

Witchfire, could you please find some website, link, book, anything that corroborates your claim. I've provided a ton of links and information supporting the fact that they have to be pumped. I can not find a single source that says otherwise. He is reading this thread btw.

 

[Witchfire]

You know what? I don't have any links or addresses to appease you. I'm going by 20-odd years of experience with family homesteads in three states in different climates. My grandmothers house has been in the family for 3 generations, is in a rural area, has never has less than 3 people living in it at any time, and has never had to be pumped. Ditto for the septic at my mother's in Indiana, going on 25 years there now. I HAVE seen tanks that did need to be pumped, but again, that was because of foreign matter introduced that killed the bacteria, or tree root systems clogging the feed lines to the drain field. Sometimes tanks WILL need to be pumped, but in my experience, it is because of misuse or overuse/undersizing.

I'm not going to be dragged into a debate looking for online info to back me up. If you want to believe everything you read on the internet, be my guest, but I've found that usable, real-world knowledge is not always based somewhere in cyberspace in the form of 1's and 0's.

The people who've been around long enough to know the real answer to your question are generally not the people who give a damn about the internet anyways.

In short, I've answered your query to the best of my knowledge, and in good faith. Sorry if that's not good enough.

Just FYI, if you're going to send PM's to bait someone, don't be so childish as to not receive them in return. Have a nice day.

 

[Armitage]

They do need tio be pumped - but for a properly sized & maintained system it should easily go 10 years or more between pumping. Not every other year like the telephone shysters try to sell you on.

 

[wacki]

I'm not going to be dragged into a debate looking for online info to back me up. If you want to believe everything you read on the internet, be my guest, but I've found that usable, real-world knowledge is not always based somewhere in cyberspace in the form of 1's and 0's.

Um.... normally info on the purdue and cornell websites are pretty reliable. I didn't pick any random website.

Just FYI, if you're going to send PM's to bait someone, don't be so childish as to not receive them in return. Have a nice day.

I wasn't baiting, I'm trying to solve this problem. As for the childish comment, I have no clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[imported_Fredster]

As Anthrax101 pointed out, for a sysytem to work nearly forever, certain maintenance is required. Older septic systems didn't even have a "septic tank". they were only a leaching pit where all solids and liquid would be sent to by gravity. If the pit failed, then the owner just added another pit and an elevated connector pipe that left the solids in the failing pit as a "septic tank". The more common system has a tank to capture the solids, the paper, the condoms, the body oils, the cooking oils and grease, the kids toys, dead goldfish, sanitary napkins, and the leftovers from dinner. If all goes well, most, but not all of this stuff will decay through the action of the favorable bacteria. The tank, if installed properly, will hold the decaying matter and the liquid. wThe slurry mass from the tank will travel to a leaching trench, or other leaching type structure. Over time. depending on many, many variables (occupants, water usage, size of structures,amount of grease, quality of installation, ph value of the tank, etc.) the tank may or may not need pumping. Having an accesible heavy duty cover over the tank will permit the examination of the anaerobic activity in the syastem. A simple stick test could tell the amount of solids, and condition thereof, of the contents. In addition, if the tank doesn't work properly, then semi-solids may enter the pipe to the leaching part of the system. That will cause problems over the long haul wherein the liquid may not leach into the soil as well because the soil around the leaching area will be a clogged mess.
Now, that doesn't even touch on the newer "high tech" systems, where efforts are made to reduce the amount of nitrogen entering the gound/groundwater. There are pumps, aerators, additives and catalysts, and other forms of gadgets. In Massachusetts, where I live and install/repair systems, the state legislators have played "engineers" and have been rewriting the Title IV septic laws frequently for 35 years. As a result, the new systems have shorter lives, more maintenance (pumping keeps the sewage/septage plants in business) and much greater costs. Whats' more, todays great idea is tomorrows rebuild and restore.
I am sure there is more that can be added to this, so I would welcome comments
Fredster

 

[wacki]

Thanks for the info. I've read this and I am glad for the feeback but it would be nice to find at least 1 link for the counter argument. Some links saying the oils can degrade, etc etc. Something credible as every single link I've found says it must be pumped.

With all the cooking his family of 6 has done it would be nice to know if 20 years of grease isn't overflowing. And yes he's read this thread and think witchfire is the only intelligent one of the bunch. I'm guessing thats because he agrees with him and not because he made a cited and well structured argument but what can you do. Funny how the other side has a complete lack of sourced evidence. (please don't think that is an attack on Witchfire's or Fredsters posts which I'm very thankful for, it is simply an observation.)

 

[imported_Fredster]

I can't cite any particular scientific studies, only experience. And that experience has shown that the great number of variables will determine the life expectancy of the system. An old couple lives in a house for 24 years... with absolutely no septic problems or pumping. The old man dies and she then sells it to a young couple with two kids. They have to pump it in the 3rd year of ownership. Another example... A young couple with 3 kids from 2yrs old to 10 years old sell their house. They had to pump the system's tank 4 times in 11 years. The new owners, an elderly couple with no grandchildren buy the house and live in it for 14 years and never have the tank pumped. Another example... The state of Taxachusetts changes the Title IV laws, again, in 1987. We put in a professionally designed/approved system in 1989. In 1995 the state changes the laws again. In 1997 we replace the entire system built to code in 1989 due to failure. This goes on all the time as the rule, not the exeption.

These are honest examples of the variables associated with on-site septic disposal. There really is no argument to counter, these are the facts of life for a septic system. It's kinda like asking how long a pickup lasts.
Fredster

 

[mellowfellow0o0]

My parents went almost 20 years with a family of 5 before having to have theirs pumped(It didn't need it, according to the people that did it btw, it was just a really wet year and the drain field was saturated with all the rain water, so it looked funny and their neighbor reported them), but now the township they live in made a law that states they have to get it pumped every 3 years. Apperantly the township is making great money from the spetic system that is getting slowly put in, but many people were fighting it based on the unreasable expense of having to pay to have the pipe run several hundered meters through the clay and rock filled soil. Well now the township made this law and can say "see sewer is cheaper." LOL

You know what is funny though. People are so stupid they re-elect these same jerks time and time again.