Shutdown over?

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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,541
9,531
136
The Republicans are incapable of governing and the government got shut down because both parties dug in over DACA

True, but the fact remains DACA has 80 to 90% support of the American public. So, the question that should be asked is that being a representative democracy, why is the party in power so resistant to enacting the will of the people?
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,284
9,786
136
So earlier today Schumer implied that him meeting with Trump on Friday was partially at McConnell's request...WTF??? Apparently, Mitch doesn't like meeting with his own party's President, and would rather have Chuck do it because Trump might actually listen to him (the whole New Yorker thing.) That's pretty messed up if true...but explains why Mitch and Chuck haven't been tearing into each other since the shutdown started.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,541
9,531
136
Not concessions. Illegal aliens. The Democrats are holding the country hostage for illegal aliens.

87% in favor of DACA.

So, it is a very small minority who takes the view that the Dreamers are ILLEGAL ALIENS, full stop, as if there simply isn't more to the story. Is it a small number of very rich GOP donors have a hate-on against imigrants and cling to any excuse to have them put them on trains and shipped to Mexico City to be dumped off unceremoniously, maybe with "you're on your own", when most don't know anything of the country of origin. That's what the oligarchy wants, and so we have a shutdown. Oligarchy really isn't the Spirit of America.

Back in 2013 if Obama could have done something unilaterally to raise the debt ceiling and avoid a shutdown, I think he would have. He didn't want the shutdown. This time, Trump could just choose to leave DACA alone, but he won't. And going by his tweets, he seems happy with a shutdown and happy to use DACA as a political football.

So: A Trump shutdown. He owns it. There ya go.
 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,187
4,871
136
Trump told both parties if they'd agree he'd sign it and then he reneged on it so here we are. Trump the liar can't make up his mind unless its about a chocolate cake with two scoops of ice cream or a porn star.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
True, but the fact remains DACA has 80 to 90% support of the American public. So, the question that should be asked is that being a representative democracy, why is the party in power so resistant to enacting the will of the people?
Most likely because 80% to 90% of the American agree with DACA in principle but not as a prerequisite to fund the government...hence the vulnerable red state Democrat Senators that broke ranks
 
Reactions: imported_tajmahal
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Interesting little meme you found. I notice that all the brave soldiers not getting paid are sweet, deserving white folks and they're not getting paid because of a buncha undeserving, and obviously nasty, brown folks.

Sweet bit of propaganda indeed.

you dont care? does the below pic illustrate who are?

 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,440
15,360
146
It's not just pay, delaying the budget forces delayed maintenance, inability to long term plan and impairs readiness.

Seems like particularly bad timing when we are threatening war in NK while we have sailors who can't sail the boats without crashing into cargo ships and killing dozens of crewmates.

Why Military Readiness Takes a Hit Every Time Congress Delays the Budget

"I am often asked what the public can do to thank the military. Here is my answer: Write your Congressman. Demand a budget on time."
As a civil servant I’m aware of most of the ramifications.

And I agree with everything you said.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Interesting little meme you found. I notice that all the brave soldiers not getting paid are sweet, deserving white folks and they're not getting paid because of a buncha undeserving, and obviously nasty, brown folks.

Sweet bit of propaganda indeed.

I'm guessing a couple more days of shutdown means that social welfare and entitlement payments don't go out on schedule so the pain is going to get spread a bit more. Of course since Immigration and Customs Enforcement is under DHS which is excluded from furloughs that means government shutdown won't stop deportations should the government remain closed.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
32,490
10,647
136
The Republicans are incapable of governing and the government got shut down because both parties dug in over DACA

"The problems start from the top and have to get solved from the top," he said. "The president is the leader, and he's got to get everybody in a room and he's got to lead."

You should Google who said that and what about if you're going to reply.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,541
9,531
136
Most likely because 80% to 90% of the American agree with DACA in principle but not as a prerequisite to fund the government...hence the vulnerable red state Democrat Senators that broke ranks

If your going to concentrate on the Democrats who broke ranks, you should equally look at the Republican hold outs in a party that controls all 3 branches of government. A bipartisan resolution to DACA was offered to Trump and he changed his mind. For whatever reason he wanted to dangle DACA as a backup to blame Democrats if he didn't get the Republican votes he needed, and probably knowing he wouldn't get. Again...Trump owns it
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,447
106
Trump told both parties if they'd agree he'd sign it and then he reneged on it so here we are. Trump the liar can't make up his mind unless its about a chocolate cake with two scoops of ice cream or a porn star.
Indeed. He wants the cake, ice cream, porn star and to eat them too. He's a gluttonous, greedy, fat fu*k who if he bothered to pay attention and really know what was going on around him he still wouldn't care about anything but his money and wielding it over people in whatever way he sees fit. Seriously, the presidency is crimping his style drastically. He doesn't care about any of what's going on but his personality definitely always leans toward being an evil, nasty, spiteful, vengeful, bastard. THAT'S what's at the top of the Republican line. As much as I loath him and believe him to be evil he's also only as evil as those who have his ears... maybe a smidge more because of his competitiveness.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
"The problems start from the top and have to get solved from the top," he said. "The president is the leader, and he's got to get everybody in a room and he's got to lead."

You should Google who said that and what about if you're going to reply.
Yes, I read the Reuters article that featured that quote. It is Trump's responsibility as leader to diffuse the situation. The Democrats will similarly need to be held accountable if they choose DACA as their bargaining chip.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
If your going to concentrate on the Democrats who broke ranks, you should equally look at the Republican hold outs in a party that controls all 3 branches of government. A bipartisan resolution to DACA was offered to Trump and he changed his mind. For whatever reason he wanted to dangle DACA as a backup to blame Democrats if he didn't get the Republican votes he needed, and probably knowing he wouldn't get. Again...Trump owns it
The reason is fairly obvious. Most Americans may support DACA, but they will not accept their government shutting down over it. Trump believes he is negotiating from a position of power, and for whatever reason, decided to play a game of chicken over this. I believe this is as much a message to Republicans as it is to Democrats.

He owns it. The end game is unclear.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
The reason is fairly obvious. Most Americans may support DACA, but they will not accept their government shutting down over it. Trump believes he is negotiating from a position of power, and for whatever reason, decided to play a game of chicken over this. I believe this is as much a message to Republicans as it is to Democrats.

He owns it. The end game is unclear.

Hardly. If the GOP leadership embraced DACA ( as most Americans obviously want) Dems would join them to create a veto proof majority. We could put it in the rearview mirror.

Not enough hate & discontent in that to suit them, apparently. It's what keeps them in office.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,957
32,182
136
Nice to see we agree on it, i'd love Mitch to pass more extreme legislation on strict party lines votes. Let's all hope it happens.
Me too. I'd love to see the GOP pass a decade of shit policy unobstructed by Democrats so when it all blows up you can't blame Democrats at all. Haha, just joking. You'd still blame Democrats and conservatives are all stupid enough to still believe it.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
Nice to see we agree on it, i'd love Mitch to pass more extreme legislation on strict party lines votes. Let's all hope it happens.

Of course you would. You're just here to spread hate & discontent, prevent the healing process America needs.
 

outriding

Diamond Member
Feb 20, 2002
3,982
3,308
136
Let's even back that up a bit. The new fiscal year started in October.

So what has Trump spent his time doing?
- Flailing on Obamacare
- Apologizing for Nazis and the Confederacy
- lighting the fuse on DACA and nuclear war in NK
- Shitting on gold star families
- Hatung in Aids-infected, hut-dwelling shitholers
- lots of golf
- voting himself millions in tax cuts

Doing the basic functions of govt?
Meh, too boring. Let's watch shark week.

Lemme add one more for you..

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...isas-to-hire-70-foreign-workers-at-mar-a-lago


Thats right Trump won 70 Visas for foreign workers @ Mar a lago last November..

So the GOP lead by Trump shut down the government over DACA (foreigners) but he just added a 70 foreigners just 10 weeks ago..

I am just completely lost for words on this..
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Hardly. If the GOP leadership embraced DACA ( as most Americans obviously want) Dems would join them to create a veto proof majority. We could put it in the rearview mirror.

Not enough hate & discontent in that to suit them, apparently. It's what keeps them in office.


I think it’s the details thereof that are in disagreement. Most of the country doesn’t support simply deporting people who’ve lived most of their lives here. The real trade off is ultimately going to be amnesty coupled with real immigration reform.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,673
482
126
The blame game is probably pointless if you are thinking it will lead to electoral gains for either party in the 2018 elections. It's unlikely to matter in the end, unless this shutdown lasts a really long time.

It's important to examine the root of the problem, though, since it has basically broken our government with these shutdowns and constant shutdown/debt default threats since at least 2011. The Republicans have a majority in the House, but it's a majority that is basically a coalition that relies on the House Freedom Caucus. If the Speaker crosses them and passes any bipartisan legislation with the Dems, the consensus seems to be he'll lose the House majority who will support him remaining as Speaker. This is why Boehner made a deal and passed bipartisan legislation, with the promise to the HFC he'd resign. He basically fell on his sword.

Then there's the issue of the people that Trump has surrounded himself with, who have contributed to sabotaging any DACA deal. WH Advisor Stephen Miller: garbage white nationalist. WH Chief of Staff John Kelly: probably the same, based on reports. Kelly probably already some white nationalist leanings before, but his time as the head of DHS probably exacerbated them. Tom Cotton: You never want to be taking the advice of this person. Mick Mulvaney: Huge mistake appointing a Tea Party guy who hates the federal government as the head of the OMB.

And please, let's stop treating DACA and CHIP as some sort of 'gift' to Democrats that should be used as a bargaining chip. These things have widespread support. Democrats would be making a mistake if they are willing to sell the farm to get things that so many people in the electorate (and allegedly Congress) support.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
I think it’s the details thereof that are in disagreement. Most of the country doesn’t support simply deporting people who’ve lived most of their lives here. The real trade off is ultimately going to be amnesty coupled with real immigration reform.

The GOP doesn't want to solve problems. They want to keep immigration as a sore spot issue indefinitely. It keeps the base nicely hateful & irrational, perfect for their purposes.
 
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UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
The GOP doesn't want to solve problems. They want to keep immigration as a sore spot issue indefinitely. It keeps the base nicely hateful & irrational, perfect for their purposes.




Same can be said of Dems and race relations.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
34,416
1,603
126
Hardly. If the GOP leadership embraced DACA ( as most Americans obviously want) Dems would join them to create a veto proof majority. We could put it in the rearview mirror.

Not enough hate & discontent in that to suit them, apparently. It's what keeps them in office.

The feeling I get is that most Republican voters are "okay" with DACA, but it isn't that important to them, certainly not important enough to shut down the government over. I'm inclined to agree, but we really do need to get some sort of guarantees in place for those folks - legal gray areas are no way to live.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,541
9,531
136
The reason is fairly obvious. Most Americans may support DACA, but they will not accept their government shutting down over it. Trump believes he is negotiating from a position of power, and for whatever reason, decided to play a game of chicken over this. I believe this is as much a message to Republicans as it is to Democrats.

He owns it. The end game is unclear.

I think we know the reason he decided to play chicken with DACA. We shouldn't even been talking about him holding it hostage when bipartisan legislation was presented to him to solve the issue before this vote. Perhaps we need a poll of Americans that consists of something like this: "Do you agree with the decision of Donald Trump to not agree to bipartisan legislation on DACA and instead use it as a trap to blame the Democrats when his majority party fails to overt a government shutdown".
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
59,160
9,604
126
I'm inclined to agree, but we really do need to get some sort of guarantees in place for those folks - legal gray areas are no way to live.
I think it's simply a dick move to call people out of the shadows, then fuck them for it. That kind of thing's for warfare, and shady business dealings, and not the place of civil government. Regardless of personal feelings regarding immigration, the game should be played fair. Not even sure how this is a discussion. "They" won this one. They get to stay, and the others can be cracked down on if desired.
 
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