Shutdown over?

[zinfamous]

Funny, both my grandfathers built very comfortable middle class lives doing jobs that they took incredible pride in trades their grandkids can no longer make a living from, not because there is no demand, but because illegals are undercutting them on price.

Typical liberal attitude that craft work is shit work.

huh? those highly skilled relatives of yours can just do those jobs if they wanted to. There is no undercutting of price, because either they get paid the wages that are being offered here, or just watch those jobs sail away overseas. It's the hubris of the working class to keep voting for republicans that keep reducing their wages, generation after generation, funneling that wealth to the owners of these companies, but think they can maintain that same decent salary with relatively low-skilled labor, for decades, in the middle of an economy that has long ago moved toward tech and finance, meaning more education.

Blame your fucking relatives for not encouraging their kids and grandkids to instead focus on an education and better wages rather than sticking with the back-breaking work that they stupidly assumed was their own forever entitlement. The selfishness of the proud, earlier generations, thinking they can so easily be let off the hook for so directly fucking up their kids.

 

[Starbuck1975]

huh? those highly skilled relatives of yours can just do those jobs if they wanted to. There is no undercutting of price, because either they get paid the wages that are being offered here, or just watch those jobs sail away overseas. It's the hubris of the working class to keep voting for republicans that keep reducing their wages, generation after generation, funneling that wealth to the owners of these companies, but think they can maintain that same decent salary with relatively low-skilled labor, for decades, in the middle of an economy that has long ago moved toward tech and finance, meaning more education.

Blame your fucking relatives for not encouraging their kids and grandkids to instead focus on an education and better wages rather than sticking with the back-breaking work that they stupidly assumed was their own forever entitlement. The selfishness of the proud, earlier generations, thinking they can so easily be let off the hook for so directly fucking up their kids.

This is a stupid response made from a position of ignorance or privilege

 

[Starbuck1975]

Do you think that the Nazis believed that Jews were destroying their economy?

I think you can't make an argument without invoking Nazis

 

[Starbuck1975]

I'm not sure you two are talking about the same things. Senseamp appears to be talking about repetitive manufacturing jobs that can and will be automated out of existence. While you are referring to trades which are typically jobs that are not as easily replaced with automation.

Exactly, trades that are absolutely being undercut by illegal immigrants. Why hire a crew of masons or carpenters or stone cutters who expect pesky things like benefits and safety when you can just hire expendable, exploitable illegals.

 

[theeedude]

Funny, both my grandfathers built very comfortable middle class lives doing jobs that they took incredible pride in trades their grandkids can no longer make a living from, not because there is no demand, but because illegals are undercutting them on price. Typical liberal attitude that craft work is shit work.

If the extent of your skills is something an illegal with no education or a robot can do, then you deserve to be undercut on price. It's not my job as a consumer to overpay so you can have a middle class lifestyle. Free market and trickle down will take care of you.

 

[interchange]

I think you can't make an argument without invoking Nazis

These two replies were probably the 2nd time I have ever invoked Nazis on this board. I do so because, actually, the situation is analogous, but no I do not believe anywhere near equivalent.

To address your reply more directly. Absolutely there are illegal immigrants costing Americans jobs. Absolutely there are illegal immigrants committing murder. And on balance illegal immigrants (in the scope of our current enforcement) are contributing positively to the economy and creating as many or more jobs for Americans as they take and committing murders at rates similar or lower than Americans of the same age/gender.

It is absolutely not wrong to desire greater enforcement of immigration policies and greater border security. It is a perfectly valid preference. It is, however, dangerously wrong to scapegoat illegal immigrants as murderers and job-stealers.

 

[theeedude]

Exactly, trades that are absolutely being undercut by illegal immigrants. Why hire a crew of masons or carpenters or stone cutters who expect pesky things like benefits and safety when you can just hire expendable, exploitable illegals.

Aww, Republicans now care about worker safety and benefits. Touching.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Exactly, trades that are absolutely being undercut by illegal immigrants. Why hire a crew of masons or carpenters or stone cutters who expect pesky things like benefits and safety when you can just hire expendable, exploitable illegals.

So wheres the employer reprecussions?

 

[Aikouka]

Exactly, trades that are absolutely being undercut by illegal immigrants. Why hire a crew of masons or carpenters or stone cutters who expect pesky things like benefits and safety when you can just hire expendable, exploitable illegals.

I don't know about you, but I've had a pretty awful time dealing with entitled contractors who end up doing a piss-poor job. I'm usually a pretty calm and collected person, but I nearly lost my cool when I pointed out some mudding compound on the window to the head contractor. Why? Because his response was to start telling me how to take it off! I have literally not dealt with a single contractor yet that I'd be willing to bring back.

 

[JSt0rm]

If the extent of your skills is something an illegal with no education or a robot can do, then you deserve to be undercut on price. It's not my job as a consumer to overpay so you can have a middle class lifestyle. Free market and trickle down will take care of you.

what he is saying is its ok for your job to be outsourced but not his.

 

[Homerboy]

I don't know about you, but I've had a pretty awful time dealing with entitled contractors who end up doing a piss-poor job. I'm usually a pretty calm and collected person, but I nearly lost my cool when I pointed out some mudding compound on the window to the head contractor. Why? Because his response was to start telling me how to take it off! I have literally not dealt with a single contractor yet that I'd be willing to bring back.

My sister is dealing with this in spades right now with her contractors. Item after item they keep screwing up and their response is "not in the contract".
I had a horrific experience with our kitchen remodel 12 years ago. Every day I walk in it, my stomach turns. It's just piss-poorly done all around.
Driveway redone 15 years ago and it was a HORRIBLE and lazy job.
I was however quite happy with the contractor we used on our edition 10 years ago. He was a solo guy though with a couple of subs he trusted.

Generally speaking, I and most people I know, have had horrible experiences with contractors.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Funny, both my grandfathers built very comfortable middle class lives doing jobs that they took incredible pride in trades their grandkids can no longer make a living from, not because there is no demand, but because illegals are undercutting them on price.

Typical liberal attitude that craft work is shit work.

Trump paid 4 bucks an hour for illegals. In what area of the US does that constitute "comfortable middle class"?

Median income is far from "comfortable" in a great many places. In WV it's probably OK, but that Trump state isn't doing so well and illegals and liberals aren't the problem.

So comfortable is more likely first or second quintile depending on area. Let's go with second quintile which is about 95K Please tell me where I can find craft work that pays that because there's got to be a lot of those. No? Must be illegals?

I know what blue collar was and is now. Factory worker equivalents cannot afford homes in many places. My grandfather was comfortable on 1100k a year. That would buy 3 or 4 cars a year.

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/20s-homes.html

Two years and he'd have a luxury home. With other expenses, it might take 5 years of savings to pay cash, but it's still two years income. Note I picked a nice home. Know what the equivalent is today? 230k and waayy up.

That's four to ten years of gross income. I am greatly upset that I am losing jobs to all these illegal immigrants, largely uneducated doing this "craft work" at 450,000 to a million dollars a year.

We need that wall so we can all be like those wealthy Mar-a-largo groundskeepers.

 

[hal2kilo]

I don't know about you, but I've had a pretty awful time dealing with entitled contractors who end up doing a piss-poor job. I'm usually a pretty calm and collected person, but I nearly lost my cool when I pointed out some mudding compound on the window to the head contractor. Why? Because his response was to start telling me how to take it off! I have literally not dealt with a single contractor yet that I'd be willing to bring back.

I have several acquaintances in construction. They all have minimal education, GEDs, ect. A lot can't get clearances to work on construction that would pay better, cause their background checks would turn up some kind of criminal charges from the past. I guess, I hang with the wrong construction worker crowd. I mean, from my experience with getting a car wash in So Cal and getting one up here where it's almost all white teens or loser young white adults, I'll take the Mexicans that know what a hard days work is and how to earn it.

 

[zinfamous]

This is a stupid response made from a position of ignorance or privilege

and yours wasn't? Why do you bitch and moan about "entitlements" everywhere but complain like a fucking child when the necessary skills to work in an economy progress well beyond the skills of previous generations, but blame your failure to adapt to that new paradigm on everyone but yourself and yours?

Why do you feel so fucking entitled, as the stagecoach driver of yesterday, to enjoy the same pleasures of stagecoach-driving wages when this no longer exists? Further, why do you feel entitled to this when you systematically vote, again and again, for the very people that absolutely ensure that your wages in those limited-skill positions evaporate or simply get sent overseas? Why do you continue to do this? Why should I sympathize?

If you are mistaking my criticism of your perspective on this reality as the same as criticizing your and your family's profession, then you are sorely mistaken. I have great sympathy for this, I just don't understand why you feel entitled to both ignore the obvious while still claiming the benefits that no longer exist.

 

[Phynaz]

Dems sure caved easy...Pussies.

 

[zinfamous]

I think you can't make an argument without invoking Nazis

Yet you've been making the same arguments that the Nazis made before you: Blame the lessers, blame the others. No need to sac up and adapt when convenient scapegoats are just around the corner, right?

You get that, right?

As for immigrants undercutting highly skilled laborers like masons and plumbers and electricians and such, you complain about shoddy work and lack of regulations. Lack of insured work. But hey--that's the grand holy market economy coming to your rescue, right? The theory dictates that these folks will lose out to the truly skilled professionals when their shoddy work leads to unclaimable insurance requests. Trust the market, right?

 

[zinfamous]

Dems sure caved easy...Pussies.

"Dems are evil for shutting down the government"
"Dems are pussies for striking a deal to restore CR"

Do you people even try any more?

 

[hal2kilo]

Yet you've been making the same arguments that the Nazis made before you: Blame the lessers, blame the others. No need to sac up and adapt when convenient scapegoats are just around the corner, right?

You get that, right?

As for immigrants undercutting highly skilled laborers like masons and plumbers and electricians and such, you complain about shoddy work and lack of regulations. Lack of insured work. But hey--that's the grand holy market economy coming to your rescue, right? The theory dictates that these folks will lose out to the truly skilled professionals when their shoddy work leads to unclaimable insurance requests. Trust the market, right?

These same cucks have been hell bent on destroying trade unions for the last 40 years. Now they care?

 

[IronWing]

Dems sure caved easy...Pussies.

Dems just saved the Republicans from themselves. They shouldn't have.

 

[Sunburn74]

Dems just saved the Republicans from themselves. They shouldn't have.

Agreed. Should have held their feet to the fire. I don't think a short CR is a big deal but honestly I have zero hope that in the next 3 weeks something will be worked out. Again they have had decades to do this.

Deadlines however spur action and today's deadline is no better than one in 3 weeks. They can negotiate today...

 

[SlowSpyder]

Agreed. Should have held their feet to the fire.

Hold the country hostage over illegal immigrants? Sounds great.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Regarding dreamers, something I saw that I think sums it up nicely.

If your parents sneak you and themselves into Disney Land, when Disney Land finds out and kicks all of you out of the park, is it Disney Land's fault or your parents fault for the child getting kicked out?

 

[IronWing]

Hold the country hostage over illegal immigrants? Sounds great.

Still pedaling that lie? You're an awful person.

 

[IronWing]

Regarding dreamers, something I saw that I think sums it up nicely.

If your parents sneak you and themselves into Disney Land, when Disney Land finds out and kicks all of you out of the park, is it Disney Land's fault or your parents fault for the child getting kicked out?

Yep, confirmed, you're an awful person.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Yep, confirmed, you're an awful person.

I may or may not be awful, but that doesn't change the fact that there is logic you simply don't like but cannot dispute there. But by all means, avoid the argument and just label me as you see fit.