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UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,296
9,794
136
Yes, the way we deal with it is let them stay without citizenship and after paying significant financial penalties for breaking the law to begin with. It's a longstanding feature of western political thought that criminals should not be allowed to keep the proceeds of their crime, and allowing "undocumented workers" a path to citizenship without repercussions (and thus benefiting from their past misdeed of being here illegally) breaks that tradition and creates even more moral hazard than already existed.

Christ man, FFS where have you been the past 5 years? You really don't understand DACA??? Everyone, EVERYONE who qualifies arrived in the US at or before the age of 16. The crime was committed by their parents--and I don't know of any case where minors have been charged as adults for illegally entering the US. So what crime or punishment would you charge them with after the fact?

FWIW, I believe there was a similar effort to get limited amnesty (work permits) for illegal immigrant parents of legally naturalized Americans (DAPA) and it was held up by lawsuits...Supreme Court split decision and Trump EO effectively killed that Obama policy. So parents will NOT get any amnesty, and that includes parents of Dreamers.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,137
32,486
136
There's a lot of "illegal but not immoral" acts that liberals really like but that conservatives could not bother enforcing if they wished. Such as "you can't deport someone without due process" would be illegal but not immoral for example. Is that really the kind of country you want?
That would be immoral as well.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
Deportation is also a tool to achieve a fair and stable society, as well as having immigration laws to begin with to allow us to control who we allow into that fair and stable society.

So, we're going to deport 11M undocumented workers? Really? Where do *you* get your drugs, anyway?

WTF are you gonna do? Deport 10% of the population of greater LA? Establish the immigration equivalent of the Gestapo to accomplish it?

For what? Truth, Justice & the American Way?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
Christ man, FFS where have you been the past 5 years? You really don't understand DACA??? Everyone, EVERYONE who qualifies arrived in the US at or before the age of 16. The crime was committed by their parents--and I don't know of any case where minors have been charged as adults for illegally entering the US. So what crime or punishment would you charge them with after the fact?

FWIW, I believe there was a similar effort to get limited amnesty (work permits) for illegal immigrant parents of legally naturalized Americans (DAPA) and it was held up by lawsuits...Supreme Court split decision and Trump EO effectively killed that Obama policy. So parents will NOT get any amnesty, and that includes parents of Dreamers.

Right wing ravers have a hard-on & they need to use it on somebody. Their leadership has stroked it to a rock hard state.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,317
4,586
136
No the moral hazard of us not enforcing our laws. Or maybe we should take your approach, if you're a Wall Street person and defraud people out of billions to "seek a better life for themselves and family" should just keep the dough. Because it's unfair to their kids if we take it away, their children had no say in the matter after all.

Claiming that following the letter of a law is more important than justice is amoral. Laws by themselves are neither moral nor amoral. Mercy must be a central concept to any form of morality.
 
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UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,296
9,794
136
So, we're going to deport 11M undocumented workers? Really? Where do *you* get your drugs, anyway?

WTF are you gonna do? Deport 10% of the population of greater LA? Establish the immigration equivalent of the Gestapo to accomplish it?

For what? Truth, Justice & the American Way?

And I'm pretty sure that 100 years of precedent regarding the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment wouldn't allow that (hence why sanctuary cities exist in the first place).
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
Claiming that following the letter of a law is more important than justice is amoral. Laws by themselves are neither moral nor amoral. Mercy must be a central concept to any form of morality.

Mercy is for losers & pussies. Smite the enemies of the State! Punish the Evildoers & their nasty little rugrats, too! Fuck 'em all!
 

Guurn

Senior member
Dec 29, 2012
319
30
91
Some numbers from migrationpolicy.org-

Mexico and Central America accounted for most unauthorized immigrants in the United States as of 2010-14, with MPI estimating their totals at about 7.9 million (71 percent of the overall unauthorized population). About 1.5 million (13 percent) were from Asia; 673,000 (6 percent) from South America; 432,000 (4 percent) from Europe, Canada, or Oceania; 353,000 (3 percent) from Africa; and 232,000 (2 percent) from the Caribbean.

The top five countries of birth for unauthorized immigrants were Mexico (56 percent), Guatemala (7 percent), El Salvador (4 percent), Honduras (3 percent), and China (2 percent).
The initial DACA program was announced on June 15, 2012, and granted two-year deportation relief and work authorization to eligible youth. Prospective beneficiaries must meet a series of requirements, including:

  • be at least 15 years old;
  • have entered the United States before the age of 16;
  • have continuously resided in the United States since June 15, 2007;
  • be enrolled in school, have earned a high school diploma or its equivalent, or be honorably discharged veterans; and
  • have not been convicted of a felony, significant misdemeanor, or three or more misdemeanors; or otherwise pose a threat to public safety or national security.
MPI estimates that as of 2016 approximately 1.9 million people were potentially eligible for DACA, including nearly 1.3 million who were immediately eligible.

Between August 15, 2012, when USCIS began accepting applications, and September 30, 2016, 861,192 initial applications were accepted for consideration. Thus, as of September 30, 2016 (the most recent data made public by USCIS at the time of this article’s publication), about 66 percent of the immediately eligible population had applied. USCIS approved 752,154 (or 87 percent) of these applications for initial status as of September 30, 2016; 62,809 (7 percent) were denied and the remainder was pending. On June 5, 2014, USCIS began accepting DACA renewal applications, and as of September 2016 had accepted 667,287 renewal applications.

The top states of residence for accepted initial applications are California (28 percent), Texas (16 percent), New York and Illinois (5 percent each), and Florida (4 percent). The top countries of origin are Mexico (78 percent), El Salvador (4 percent), Guatemala (3 percent), Honduras (2 percent), and Peru and Brazil (1 percent each).
By the end of September 2016, 88 percent (588,151) of the accepted 667,287 renewal applications had been approved, with 11 percent (73,705) pending, and less than 1 percent (5,431) denied.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Speaking for myself, if we arrived at some robust enforcement mechanism to curb future illegal immigration, I'd just say give 'em all amnesty. eVerify, the Wall, whatever.
 

Xellos2099

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2005
2,277
13
81
Illegal immigration is not a crime. It's a civil matter. That's no answer, anyway, because a lot of them can't pay because they're supporting American citizen children & future Dreamers. 2/3 of them have lived & worked among us for over 10 years.

We can declare Peace any time we want. That's right. Undocumented workers who've made a go of it won't leave voluntarily & we won't be throwing them out, either. We could just say "Much as it pains some of us to do so, You've been declared an immigration jackpot winner. Here's your permanent resident status. Go back to work!"

How hard is that? What do we lose other than stupid pride?
HOW is illegal immigrant not a crime??? They broke the law of the land.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,187
4,871
136
Speaking for myself, if we arrived at some robust enforcement mechanism to curb future illegal immigration, I'd just say give 'em all amnesty. eVerify, the Wall, whatever.
I agree that enforcement must be in the cards of any deal. Reagan gave them amnesty in '86 without any real enforcement measures and look what it gave us as we're living it today.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,354
43,742
136
I think that’s the consensus of most honestly.

People who vote Republican should tell their representatives that.

The 2013 bill that passed the Senate gave the GOP basically their entire enforcement wish list. 700 miles of new border fence, tech to secure rest of border where there can be no fence, double the border patrol, mandatory E-verify, and overhaul the visa system to eliminate overstays. The works.
 
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UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
People who vote Republican should tell their representatives that.

The 2013 bill that passed the Senate gave the GOP basically their entire enforcement wish list. 700 miles of new border fence, tech to secure rest of border where there can be no fence, double the border patrol, mandatory E-verify, and overhaul the visa system to eliminate overstays. The works.


Lol politicians aren’t looking for solutions for things, they need the problem.
 
Reactions: Starbuck1975

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,176
9,337
136
Protip, going around saying "since you won't vote for higher taxes for the rich, fvck off and die" isn't a good way of bringing people around to your way of thinking.

We got folks posting here for their own reasons. While it'd be nice, it doesn't have to be for that particular one. Maybe some members have lost their way and need a place to vent. They know someone's reading, and they know we disapprove of nihilism. Maybe that can be enough.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,354
43,742
136
What's wrong with us today?

That was before Mexicans destroyed rust belt America, got everybody addicted to prescription painkillers, and thrust their strange foreign food upon us.


Or they've just made convenient scapegoats in the intervening years.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,187
4,871
136
That was before Mexicans destroyed rust belt America, got everybody addicted to prescription painkillers, and thrust their strange foreign food upon us.


Or they've just made convenient scapegoats in the intervening years.
Our open border must be better protected to prevent illegal immigration. Having lived and worked along it I've seen people cross at will for years on end and it has to stop. We have laws concerning immigration and they should be adhered to.
 
Reactions: Thunder 57

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
What's wrong with us today?

Just the fact that ~11M undocumented workers are here to stay, apparently. Actual border control is clearly adequate or that number would still be growing. Declaring amnesty every 30 years or so won't be much of an encouragement to anybody trying it, either.

The way conservatives think about it is just kinda crazy. I mean, what do we want? Perpetual internal conflict or an honest & decent coming to terms with reality?

Most undocumented workers have lived amicably among us for over 10 years. They often have American dependents. Their kids go to public school & are raised American. I figure they're pretty well vetted at this point. They're already part of America. We don't have to like it to accept it & make peace with it. What we need to do is make the best of it, together.

That's way too easy for the GOP because they get a lot of mileage spreading the FUD & whipping up hate & discontent. They love this issue and will hold onto it & exploit it as long as they possibly can. All to keep working that sweet, sweet lie of trickle down economics. It's the same with all their permanent smokescreen issues.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
29,155
29,368
136
People who vote Republican should tell their representatives that.

The 2013 bill that passed the Senate gave the GOP basically their entire enforcement wish list. 700 miles of new border fence, tech to secure rest of border where there can be no fence, double the border patrol, mandatory E-verify, and overhaul the visa system to eliminate overstays. The works.

But brown people would have been allowed to stay!
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,296
9,794
136
Our open border must be better protected to prevent illegal immigration. Having lived and worked along it I've seen people cross at will for years on end and it has to stop. We have laws concerning immigration and they should be adhered to.

The best way to stop them is to prevent them from getting jobs here in the first place. E-verify 2.0, harsher penalties for employers caught hiring illegals under the table, and actually throw some rich folk with illegal housekeepers in jail. You can setup an expanded guest worker program for farming and agriculture or certain seasonal/cyclical industries, but these would be unskilled jobs that Americans don't want.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
3 weeks of funding for 6 years of CHIP? Democrats got something they wanted and gave up nothing for it (no wall, no immigration reform).

Ready for another shutdown on February 8th?
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
The best way to stop them is to prevent them from getting jobs here in the first place. E-verify 2.0, harsher penalties for employers caught hiring illegals under the table, and actually throw some rich folk with illegal housekeepers in jail. You can setup an expanded guest worker program for farming and agriculture or certain seasonal/cyclical industries, but these would be unskilled jobs that Americans don't want.

Like that's gonna happen. Just slap yourself the way Moe slapped Curly & come to your senses. Why would we want that prior to amnesty, anyway? You're just driving mostly decent people into the shadows.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,187
4,871
136
The best way to stop them is to prevent them from getting jobs here in the first place. E-verify 2.0, harsher penalties for employers caught hiring illegals under the table, and actually throw some rich folk with illegal housekeepers in jail. You can setup an expanded guest worker program for farming and agriculture or certain seasonal/cyclical industries, but these would be unskilled jobs that Americans don't want.
Our society has changed since those immigration laws were written which is why so much work needs to be done to address all of the issues surrounding it. Those farm workers can be protected along with the kids while increasing border to security to stop the flow of illegals while making it possible for those kinds of laborers to gain entry legally.

Congress has turned a blind eye for far too long and its well past time to take this issue to task.
 
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