SJW trouble at Linux

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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,320
32,841
136
T is already taken. How am I supposed to express my toaster identifiedness?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
But that is not what concerns me. You did give your opinion on what you think is happening and that is the very opinion I said I had insufficient data to make. After saying so I then added my gut reaction with the understanding I had nothing with which to back it up but that it felt right to me. You also offered answers to how the issue could be addressed, the anonymous contributor thingi. My comment on that was that I did not know enough to be able to agree that would help.

As for judging, it's a bad habit in my opinion for someone who knows they don't know anything.

If you want to destroy somebody, make them a judge. A saying.

So what did you mean when you say I was presuming to know things?

So to be clear, you gave your opinion on what you thought was happening and what issues you thought there were. I did the same no?
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
And yet I doubt that will stop majority women workplaces having things like fireman of the month pinup calendars or penis eraser heads on #2 pencils. In my experience that whole call for civility and notions of equality die out rather quickly if women are held to those standards the same as men.

Hell, some of the nastiest work drama I've heard or seen has been woman vs woman. Some called me a judgmental jerk for looking down on and supporting ostrasizing/firing a married city manager of a small town who was caught sleeping with the head of the sewer department (and letting the guy use a city credit card on the side). That female city manager fired the female worker who walked in on them inspecting each other's plumbing. The city lost a hostile work environment lawsuit over that and the manager still kept her job for over a year. PC politics to a tee.

But you know, all dem wimminz coders be upset over some nerd's pron puns.

Nice job to both miss his point while proving it at the same time. Sweet. That takes a real talent.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,409
6,672
126
So what did you mean when you say I was presuming to know things?

So to be clear, you gave your opinion on what you thought was happening and what issues you thought there were. I did the same no?
To understand what I meant by saying you presumed to know things you must be careful not to presume you know what category what I referred to you presuming applied to. here is exactly what I referred to:

r: "You are missing the logical conclusion. If the industry is filled with White and Asian men which is self-perpetuating because of their bias, then the solution becomes to find ways to promote non-white, non-Asian, non-male people. You then link the context of the discussion that we were having about removing and or reducing merit and you get an outcome where achievements by the aforementioned are reduced and no merit things are promoted."

This was you presuming that the chain of logic you laid out there was applicable to the fact I was missing this logical conclusion when I had not in fact suggested anything that such a chain of reasoning could apply to. I had not suggested that White and Asian men were perpetuating their bias in any of the reasoning I felt was logical to make. If you inferred that I did it would have had to be in the opinions I offered in the second part of my original post and those I clearly stated were logically worthless.

This means then that you can't avoid the fact that you made presumptions just because you did not state your beliefs on the matter and made those presumptions there. You stated other beliefs that had no application to anything I said.

Let me give you an example of the kind of thing I never get to with you because of all these journeys out into the weeds. Suppose there is such a thing as up to date, first rate. top of the line coding and that fact is visible to a cream of top of the line coders, and suppose further that the only objective this cream of the crop values is the product, the code itself. Let us further postulate that this cream is the cream we see today is based on the hard work and dedication that is much easier to acquire for White males and Asians than anybody else owing to general discrimination in life that penetrates right though to college education. Coding skills, for example might not be high on the list of skills that allow you to survive on the streets in ghettos. Now as a person who can see the value in perfection of execution and love of task, I can understand how a cream of the crop would only want cream to touch their baby. But because of the real world we must live in, I can see how such focus might create tension. This is how I see the problem. I am not offering any answers to it. I do not see how a single person or point of view could ever resolve this. It looks to me to be a process that will requite buy-in on many levels.
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,539
286
126
www.the-teh.com
Dude, you need to keep up.

Lesbian
Gay
Bisexual
Transgender
Queer and/or Questioning,
Asexual and/or (Straight) Ally
+ any other identity a person might have


Thanks. Will be helpful on dating sites to know what all that means

Not the right thread, but I don't see how putting yourself in a box with a label helps you out. I always felt like when you call people black or white you just encourage racism.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,430
2,867
126
So you are not impacted by this.
So you are whining because something bad happened to other people.
You are fighting injustice, not done to you, but done to others.

You are a Social Justice Warrior yourself.
By definition.
Ok dude your post is trolling.
1. Actually if you had read the material you would know anyone could be impacted by this.
2. Literally anyone who works in news (and many more professions) fits your description
3. There is a well known meaning to SJW

You wasted my time and contributed zero to this thread
 
Reactions: Thunder 57

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,430
2,867
126
'can code be objectively evaluated as superior in say example A as opposed to some alternative example B?
Yes it can.

This isnt the case of two coders where both have written top-notch code and Linus deciding who wears the crown, but rather where one has written flawless, efficient code and another has written sloppy, bad code. If two coders both write great code, then both codes are great codes, and both get used.
Code isnt judged on 'artistic' principles.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,409
6,672
126
Yes it can.

This isnt the case of two coders where both have written top-notch code and Linus deciding who wears the crown, but rather where one has written flawless, efficient code and another has written sloppy, bad code. If two coders both write great code, then both codes are great codes, and both get used.
Code isnt judged on 'artistic' principles.
The only problem here is that for me your opinion means nothing. How would I know if you know what you are talking about or it's just your opinion. Furthermore, since there is a debate going on as to how code should be looked at divided by two major classes of opinions, how do I know you are not just a member of one of those camps presenting that camp's opinion. All these arguments are given by people who believe they know what they are talking about. I am suspicious they actually do.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,430
2,867
126
I dont know man, do you want me to explain why that attitude is wrong? Honestly i have given up, it's like people come to PnN to argue like it's a fucking sport. You don't want to believe it, dont believe it, i dont care. You can be 100% free of continuing to not believe while those who came to discuss the grounded, realistic aspects of the situation willcontinue doing that. I cant prove to you that code can be judged objectively just like i can't prove to you that rain makes you wet. You need to have *some* understanding of, you know, real life, if you want to profit from a forum discussion.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
T is already taken. How am I supposed to express my toaster identifiedness?

I think that would fall under the + of LGBTQA+. Besides, I think that the T should stand for Tacos. Who isn't attracted by a good Taco?

But, seriously, that acronym is too damn long.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,430
2,867
126
- Isnt it though? Even a little bit?
You know what, i dont know. Im not actually there with Linus as he makes his decision. I know that there is such thing as "elegant" code, there certainly are aspects of coding which are considered "good".

Writing code that is short, solid, efficient, are things which are appreciated - but they are appreciated from a technical standpoint. There's no concessions for code that "represents man's struggle against oppression". It's a technical product, it's judged on technical merits.

Sincerely i struggle to imagine how code could have *non* technical merits, but other skills have that; the Mona Lisa tequires skill to make, it's difficult to get the proportions right, the prospective, the colors must be right, the brushstrokes ...
Then you get avangarde garbage thats paint splattered on a canvas - oh but IT REPRESENTS SOMETHING.

Im sure this thing will boil over as Linux will continue to judge code based on quality .. but not without a struggle. SJWs do not simply go away, and when someone who says "we want to be able to express ourselves freely" and "fuck free speech" on the same page gets involved at any level with your company, you ought to get worried.

"Social Justice" is a platform. It's been created by people who are nobody to become someone, through empowering the undeserving to positions they should not have.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with privilege - as described by them. I dont owe anything to anyone if my family didnt divorce or if Uncle Ben didnt drink all his money away. We want peopke to develop privilege, not lose it. We want families who save, buy homes, learn professional jobs, put kids through college, pay for books, car, who can teach their kids skills.

Those that do not have it need look no further than themselves. If you dont have privilege, BUILD IT. Save your money, buy a house, stay married, keep working, and give it two generations your kids will be just fine.

I get it that they want to whine but hey, life sucks. Im sorry you were born genderqueer and had to therefore dedicate most of your youth to nights in the park toilets while Otherguy(tm) was hacking spectrums but them's the cards life gave you.

Thats a methaphorical "you", i dont mean YOU.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
146
T is already taken. How am I supposed to express my toaster identifiedness?

I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I'm fucking retarded but I don't care, I'm beautiful. I'm having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me "Apache" and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can't accept me you're a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.
 
Reactions: Rifter
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
146
Thanks. Will be helpful on dating sites to know what all that means

Not the right thread, but I don't see how putting yourself in a box with a label helps you out. I always felt like when you call people black or white you just encourage racism.

Precisely. It's segregation masked as diversity. Do you think labeling something - say - a "Black employee network" club looks like a welcome mat for anyone that doesn't obviously identify as such?
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,674
12,611
136
Normally I would not wade into a P&N thread. This is about software, though, and specifically, it is about the Linux kernel.

First off, I'd direct any and all of you reading this thread to the controversy surrounding the Rust community conduct standards. Notice any similarities?

Secondly, I'd like to remind thread participants that the Linux kernel has become the foundation for numerous mission-critical servers and workstations around the world. It's important stuff. You can't afford for anything to go wrong with the kernel. At. All. It HAS to work, and work right. No exceptions.

Even . . . controversial elements of major Linux distros (systemd) can be avoided with sufficient effort. But the kernel? Break the kernel and Linux is basically stuck, forever.

Linus Torvalds essentially set the standard for developers. If you have an ego, and focus too much on how you feel about yourself or your (attempted) contributions to the kernel, you will probably wither under his (or someone else's) criticism. Those who can put their ego and sense of self aside may improve as coders and learn something. Those who can't, probably won't. It is, at times, ugly. I think Torvalds himself is beginning to suffer the effects of his own intensity. Yet the end result has been one of the most, if not the most, successful operating systems in the entire world. Change that, and Linux will die. Quickly. Hopefully someone will fork it and institute a code of conduct mandating that everyone will agree to put aside their egos, take their licks, and just try to produce better code, period. There also needs to be a permanent prohibition on "code quotas" that attempt to encourage submissions from under-represented minorities. Nobody cares who writes the code. It has to be fast, concise, and effective. Period. Many contributors are anonymous anyway. Other submissions come from corporations with entire teams the composition of which one can only guess at.

It's a shame that the current development process has hurt some people's feelings. It really is. And it's great that Linus himself may take some time off to reflect on how much of an ass he really is. But it isn't worth it to break a proven-effective development community apart in an attempt to fix those problems. Despite all its warts, the open-source development process behind Linux works. The results are proven. And in the end, that's what matters. It is worth it to hurt people's feelings and make them feel marginalized if, in the process, the kernel moves ever forward. In the end, the machine wins. That is the goal. The only goal. SILENCE THE DISCORD

If sensitive-types and minorities feel that there's a problem, they can always fork the kernel and start their own development community. Trying to eliminate existing developers with codes of conduct is pointless.
 
Reactions: Lanyap and DigDog

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
This was you presuming that the chain of logic you laid out there was applicable to the fact I was missing this logical conclusion when I had not in fact suggested anything that such a chain of reasoning could apply to. I had not suggested that White and Asian men were perpetuating their bias in any of the reasoning I felt was logical to make. If you inferred that I did it would have had to be in the opinions I offered in the second part of my original post and those I clearly stated were logically worthless.

It still surprises me how often you think it is others that are not understanding you, when it often appears that you do not understand them.

I did not claim that you were presuming that White and Asian men were perpetuating. I was saying that you could infer that from their (the people that pushed for the change in coc). That is their logical stance as expressed in what they have literally said.

This means then that you can't avoid the fact that you made presumptions just because you did not state your beliefs on the matter and made those presumptions there. You stated other beliefs that had no application to anything I said.

I made presumptions about THEIR views, not yours. Again, it is amazing that you got this wrong, and are leaving no room for your mistake.

Let me give you an example of the kind of thing I never get to with you because of all these journeys out into the weeds. Suppose there is such a thing as up to date, first rate. top of the line coding and that fact is visible to a cream of top of the line coders, and suppose further that the only objective this cream of the crop values is the product, the code itself. Let us further postulate that this cream is the cream we see today is based on the hard work and dedication that is much easier to acquire for White males and Asians than anybody else owing to general discrimination in life that penetrates right though to college education. Coding skills, for example might not be high on the list of skills that allow you to survive on the streets in ghettos. Now as a person who can see the value in perfection of execution and love of task, I can understand how a cream of the crop would only want cream to touch their baby. But because of the real world we must live in, I can see how such focus might create tension. This is how I see the problem. I am not offering any answers to it. I do not see how a single person or point of view could ever resolve this. It looks to me to be a process that will requite buy-in on many levels.

What is the benefit of allowing anything other than cream? If you can't produce it, then allowing it into the mix provides a net loss. Why not focus on why the person is unable to produce the cream, rather than rejecting cream for non-cream?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,602
15,125
136
You know what, i dont know. Im not actually there with Linus as he makes his decision. I know that there is such thing as "elegant" code, there certainly are aspects of coding which are considered "good".

Writing code that is short, solid, efficient, are things which are appreciated - but they are appreciated from a technical standpoint. There's no concessions for code that "represents man's struggle against oppression". It's a technical product, it's judged on technical merits.

Sincerely i struggle to imagine how code could have *non* technical merits, but other skills have that; the Mona Lisa tequires skill to make, it's difficult to get the proportions right, the prospective, the colors must be right, the brushstrokes ...
Then you get avangarde garbage thats paint splattered on a canvas - oh but IT REPRESENTS SOMETHING.

Im sure this thing will boil over as Linux will continue to judge code based on quality .. but not without a struggle. SJWs do not simply go away, and when someone who says "we want to be able to express ourselves freely" and "fuck free speech" on the same page gets involved at any level with your company, you ought to get worried.

"Social Justice" is a platform. It's been created by people who are nobody to become someone, through empowering the undeserving to positions they should not have.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with privilege - as described by them. I dont owe anything to anyone if my family didnt divorce or if Uncle Ben didnt drink all his money away. We want peopke to develop privilege, not lose it. We want families who save, buy homes, learn professional jobs, put kids through college, pay for books, car, who can teach their kids skills.

Those that do not have it need look no further than themselves. If you dont have privilege, BUILD IT. Save your money, buy a house, stay married, keep working, and give it two generations your kids will be just fine.

I get it that they want to whine but hey, life sucks. Im sorry you were born genderqueer and had to therefore dedicate most of your youth to nights in the park toilets while Otherguy(tm) was hacking spectrums but them's the cards life gave you.

Thats a methaphorical "you", i dont mean YOU.

Have you ever come across something like this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_verification

And come to terms with how hard if not impossible it is with our static/dynamic variants? I mean going functional you have a use case... My point is that in the room between what you can actually prove (functional) and what we do in C / whatever, leaves room for interpretation of its correctness.
Thats all I got .

(btw, I was that dude hacking spectrums, vic20's and c64's, amigas...)
 
Last edited:

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Have you ever come across something like this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_verification

And come to terms with how hard if not impossible it is with our static/dynamic variants? I mean going functional you have a use case... My point is that in the room between what you can actually prove (functional) and what we do in C / whatever, leaves room for interpretation of its correctness.
Thats all I got .

(btw, I was that dude hacking spectrums, vic20's and c64's, amigas...)

If the argument is that its hard to tell quality vs style, then maybe. The argument being made though is that because some people start behind, they do not have the ability to compete on merit which ends up enforcing the gap. What they are calling for is a different set of standards where those with the lesser ability (due to their background) are given a leg up to allow them to compete with people that had the advantage due to privilege.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,602
15,125
136
If the argument is that its hard to tell quality vs style, then maybe. The argument being made though is that because some people start behind, they do not have the ability to compete on merit which ends up enforcing the gap. What they are calling for is a different set of standards where those with the lesser ability (due to their background) are given a leg up to allow them to compete with people that had the advantage due to privilege.
And that cant be a thing of course, but they COULD be adviced to tend to lesser critical parts of the system where they can continue to hone their skills. Without all the asshole.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
And that cant be a thing of course, but they COULD be adviced to tend to lesser critical parts of the system where they can continue to hone their skills. Without all the asshole.

To the COC, I think being less of an asshat (redhat pun) is a good thing. Opening the discussion to more perspectives will likely be a good thing so long as those voices are able to articulate their logic.

What I think people are taking umbrage with is the other side about social inequality. Saying that a merit based system is inherently perpetrating and enforcing inequality for non-privileged has rubbed many the wrong way.

What it also looks like is people trying to fix things they believe are issues on the back end, when it appears to be something caused on the front end.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
I'm telling you, it's only a matter of time that we're going to see open source projects fork on ideological grounds. I'm kinda looking forward to see which side writes better code, the Liberal minded programmers or the Libertarian minded ones.

I'm not going to even bother mentioning the Conservative minded programmers... they're probably still coding in COBOL
 
Reactions: cytg111

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,602
15,125
136
I'm telling you, it's only a matter of time that we're going to see open source projects fork on ideological grounds. I'm kinda looking forward to see which side writes better code, the Liberal minded programmers or the Libertarian minded ones.

I'm not going to even bother mentioning the Conservative minded programmers... they're probably still coding in COBOL
Hahaha.. well... asm never goes out of style .
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
146
I'm telling you, it's only a matter of time that we're going to see open source projects fork on ideological grounds. I'm kinda looking forward to see which side writes better code, the Liberal minded programmers or the Libertarian minded ones.

I'm not going to even bother mentioning the Conservative minded programmers... they're probably still coding in COBOL

Programming in COBOL is an easy starting 6-figures. So that's a bad way of trying to call them stupid

(My professor in college ~8 years ago SWORE by COBOL and still taught it in 2008 basically saying it will never die with how much it's relied on).
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
Programming in COBOL is an easy starting 6-figures. So that's a bad way of trying to call them stupid

(My professor in college ~8 years ago SWORE by COBOL and still taught it in 2008 basically saying it will never die with how much it's relied on).

Not calling them stupid, just calling them conservative. If it worked 40 years ago, it should still work now... right?

I better be careful, I don't want to "trigger" any cis gendered COBOL programmers who think that I'm discriminating against them!
 
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