Smoking Ban

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TravisT

Golden Member
Sep 6, 2002
1,427
0
0
There are to many good citizens out there that simply are addicted to it. Particularly if you look at the elders who have been smoking for 60 years and were not aware of the danger and addiction when they started.

There is a difference in making something illegal, legal, and making something legal, illegal. Despite the fact that here in Oklahoma I voted in favor of a larger taxation on smoking, I am not in favor of banning it all together.

Banning it in restraunts, and public areas, yes. But not banning it from people just wish to do it outside or in their own homes.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
Well as stupid as it sounds, I could prolly still get away with smoking in my house and back yard, as I could prolly claim it as a religious rite of my people. It also wouldn't be too far from the truth, although I admit I'd be better off just quitting.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: TravisT
Banning it in restraunts, and public areas, yes. But not banning it from people just wish to do it outside or in their own homes.

That's pretty much my position. I favor legalizating all drugs, but not the administering of your drugs to unwilling participants as smoking does.

 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0

broon

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2002
3,660
1
81
We can end this car vs cig discussion once and for all. All we need are three people, two garages, and one car. Put one person and car in one garage. Shut door, start engine. The other two go in the other garage, door shut. One of those starts smoking, the other doesn't. Of the three, who will die first?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
It is child abuse to smoke around children.

If there is anything we could do for the children, this is it.

Nothing good can come from smoking; it has absolutely no redeeming value.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: broon
We can end this car vs cig discussion once and for all. All we need are three people, two garages, and one car. Put one person and car in one garage. Shut door, start engine. The other two go in the other garage, door shut. One of those starts smoking, the other doesn't. Of the three, who will die first?
That's not an accurate model of the problem though. You'd die of asphyxiation from the car first, obviously, as the oxygen concentration would drop below acceptable levels.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
No guesses cyclowizard?


Thats's ok, there was another point in those posts. We all know what you go to school for, but never think you are the only one here with that qualification and expertise to comment on those issues. Can't remember who said this here, but here it is as I can remember it as accurately as possible:

"If you took the combined knowledge of AT we could put a man on the moon or build a nuclear bomb"

That is probably more true than not, there are some extremely educated and intelligent people on this forum covering literally every field know to man. The point, there is no need to constantly bleat about your knowledge or claim to be the ONLY one (or top dog) about anything, you may find yourself looking rather pompus and maybe even foolish. Treat everyone else here with the same intellectual respect you feel you deserve, as they may be years ahead of you even though they don't wear it on their sleeve.

Got a question for you though, noticed in another post you mentioned speaking with someone on a daily level and he is part of Dayton University. Is that your school?

 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Will any of you ever sleep again knowing I have cleared various passenger airplanes and nuclear plants among other things all around your daily life? Enjoy your flight, LMAO.......
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Alistar7
No guesses cyclowizard?


Thats's ok, there was another point in those posts. We all know what you go to school for, but never think you are the only one here with that qualification and expertise to comment on those issues. Can't remember who said this here, but here it is as I can remember it as accurately as possible:

"If you took the combined knowledge of AT we could put a man on the moon or build a nuclear bomb"

That is probably more true than not, there are some extremely educated and intelligent people on this forum covering literally every field know to man. The point, there is no need to constantly bleat about your knowledge or claim to be the ONLY one (or top dog) about anything, you may find yourself looking rather pompus and maybe even foolish. Treat everyone else here with the same intellectual respect you feel you deserve, as they may be years ahead of you even though they don't wear it on their sleeve.

Got a question for you though, noticed in another post you mentioned speaking with someone on a daily level and he is part of Dayton University. Is that your school?
I've been ignoring your posts because of the jackassery you pulled a couple weeks ago. That said, I never said i am THE expert on these issues, just that I have more in-depth knowledge than does Vic. I try to impart what I know in the context of the conversation on others so that they can know more to base their decision on. If that makes me pompous or what have you, then so be it. I'm not one to sit idly by while people make comments based on misinformation. I readily accept when someone corrects me, so I would hope others would do the same. I have a perspective that most others here do not, and I'm willing to share it. If they want to cast it aside, so be it. Whatever gets you going.

I did my undergrad at the University of Dayton. Currently at Washington U in St. Louis.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Alistar7
No guesses cyclowizard?


Thats's ok, there was another point in those posts. We all know what you go to school for, but never think you are the only one here with that qualification and expertise to comment on those issues. Can't remember who said this here, but here it is as I can remember it as accurately as possible:

"If you took the combined knowledge of AT we could put a man on the moon or build a nuclear bomb"

That is probably more true than not, there are some extremely educated and intelligent people on this forum covering literally every field know to man. The point, there is no need to constantly bleat about your knowledge or claim to be the ONLY one (or top dog) about anything, you may find yourself looking rather pompus and maybe even foolish. Treat everyone else here with the same intellectual respect you feel you deserve, as they may be years ahead of you even though they don't wear it on their sleeve.

Got a question for you though, noticed in another post you mentioned speaking with someone on a daily level and he is part of Dayton University. Is that your school?
I've been ignoring your posts because of the jackassery you pulled a couple weeks ago. That said, I never said i am THE expert on these issues, just that I have more in-depth knowledge than does Vic. I try to impart what I know in the context of the conversation on others so that they can know more to base their decision on. If that makes me pompous or what have you, then so be it. I'm not one to sit idly by while people make comments based on misinformation. I readily accept when someone corrects me, so I would hope others would do the same. I have a perspective that most others here do not, and I'm willing to share it. If they want to cast it aside, so be it. Whatever gets you going.

I did my undergrad at the University of Dayton. Currently at Washington U in St. Louis.

Sigh, still the same, never mind then, have a good day. You missed the FUN days at DU BTW, not anywhere what it used to be since the school took over the housing in the "ghetto".
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,166
16,637
136
I'm a smoker, and I would support a ban.
Why? Because all of this raising taxes and banning them here and there just pisses me off. Either let me smoke in peace and STFU, or ban them altogether. None of this "Smoking is bad! You're the devil!" while the state budget is depending on the $1.80 in taxes on each pack.
 

mwtgg

Lifer
Dec 6, 2001
10,491
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
It is child abuse to smoke around children.

If there is anything we could do for the children, this is it.

Nothing good can come from smoking; it has absolutely no redeeming value.

Always for the children, eh? Ban this... why you ask? Oh for the children. It's a sorry excuse for anything.

My mom smoked around me, she didn't smoke while she was pregnant, but when I was born, she started up again. Am I fine? You're damn right I'm fine. Am I lucky that I don't have respiratory problems? Maybe, who knows.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Sigh, still the same, never mind then, have a good day. You missed the FUN days at DU BTW, not anywhere what it used to be since the school took over the housing in the "ghetto".
We had more than enough fun in the Ghetto, despite it being university-owned. It was a lot more fun before homecoming of my sophomore year (the one with the riot cops and the Ghetto almost getting burned down). After that, they were a lot more anal. We still managed to have some pretty awesome parties, especially during my fifth year. Where are those pictures...
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I fail to see how you being an ASE certified mechanic qualifies you to tell me about the health effects of a car's exhaust. I've likely done just about everything to a car that you have, and with absolutely no training - nothing but a Chiltons, but it didn't impart any understanding of the chemistry or dynamics of the exhaust. My engineering background has, however. It has taught me that chemicals can be endured at certain concentrations without risk. The safe concentration varies per chemical. The chemicals in cigarettes, such as cyanide, require a ridiculously low concentration to have effects on you. Some of the effects of chemicals are also chronic rather than acute, but that doesn't mean there isn't an effect.

In reality, the volumetric efficiency has very little to do with this conversation. In reality, the conversion of fuel to carbon dioxide and gas has everything to do with it as far as this discussion goes. The two are related, but as far as this discussion goes, you're missing the point, as it isn't the volume of gas that leaves the exhaust that is the problem. The problem is the makeup of that stream. If we had 100% consumption of fuel, then the exit stream would ideally be carbon dioxide and water. Instead, it comes out with various COx and NOx species, since the engine is hardly an ideal reactor. So, if you want to make an argument of the form you're weaving, you need to consider the net output of these harmful species. You would also need to consider their health effects (which are very, very low relative to chemicals in smoke). You would also need to consider dilution effects.

As for the calculation itself, the volume output matters not at all. What matters is the molar/mass output rate of these 'harmful' chemicals. So, you'd need to look at the engine as a reactor instead of a simple airflow unit. You'd need to consider catalytic conversion effects. You'd need to consider chemistry of fuel additives. All of these things you ignore because you don't have the background I do, which is fine. However, I do understand them and am trying to tell you what I know. If you're going to reject it out of hand, then you're closed minded, as I previously stated.

I take no issue with whatdguy said because it's obviously ridiculous. You, on the other hand, are trying to pass yourself off as an authority on the subject when you are not. Since I am (at least relatively speaking), I feel obligated to call you on it. If you're going to try to persuade someone, you should be aware of the relevant considerations before you try to make an argument. I can't fault you for not knowing everything I do, as 99.999% of society does not. However, that doesn't mean I'll sit idly by and watch you spout out things that I know are false. It's what I do, whether you or I like it or not.
I bow before your superior elitism. Thank God that 22 year-old career students like yourself are sooo superior that you are qualified to make moral decisions for the rest of us, and seek the power to do so.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Vic
I bow before your superior elitism. Thank God that 22 year-old career students like yourself are sooo superior that you are qualified to make moral decisions for the rest of us, and seek the power to do so.
Correcting your ignorance != making moral decisions. The strawman is dead. Let him rest in peace.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Correcting your ignorance != making moral decisions. The strawman is dead. Let him rest in peace.
You don't get it. I'm not using strawman, I'm purposefully insulting you. There is a difference, and trust me, you deserve it.

And you're not correcting my ignorance. You're trying (from the safety of your own keyboard) to establish the tyranny of your own mind over everyone else, by dictating your moral decisions. It's pretty typical, but just makes your claims of elitism that much more laughable. After that last post of yours I quoted, it's gonna be pretty much impossible for me to ever take you seriously again. There is no such thing as a discussion or debate with a person who already thinks they know everything, nor is it even remotely possible to consider such a person as wise.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Unbeivable 40% here would ban smoking. I'm reminded yet again I should have bought that 360 acres in montana when I saw it in a fishing magazine 15 yrs ago for $22,000. Stay far away from you creeps.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Correcting your ignorance != making moral decisions. The strawman is dead. Let him rest in peace.
You don't get it. I'm not using strawman, I'm purposefully insulting you. There is a difference, and trust me, you deserve it.

And you're not correcting my ignorance. You're trying (from the safety of your own keyboard) to establish the tyranny of your own mind over everyone else, by dictating your moral decisions. It's pretty typical, but just makes your claims of elitism that much more laughable. After that last post of yours I quoted, it's gonna be pretty much impossible for me to ever take you seriously again. There is no such thing as a discussion or debate with a person who already thinks they know everything, nor is it even remotely possible to consider such a person as wise.
You're trying to impose your own ignorance on me. Sorry for shooting you down. If you can demonstrate where I've tried to use morality to argue any of my points, feel free to point it out. What you call 'elitism' is my education. You don't have it, and it sounds like you're pissed. Instead of admitting that you don't know as much as I do, you try to personally attack me. Whatever floats your boat. I hardly know everything, and I'll readily admit when I'm wrong. This is not one of those cases, however. In this case, in the argument between yourself and myself, it's based on facts. I know the facts, you don't. You demonstrated your lack of knowledge and I can demonstrate my knowledge. I never even claimed that my knowledge is complete - only that it is complete relative to your own. Feel free to ignore me if it makes it easier for you to hold on to your own ego.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: Zebo
Unbeivable 40% here would ban smoking. I'm reminded yet again I should have bought that 360 acres in montana when I saw it in a fishing magazine 15 yrs ago for $22,000. Stay far away from you creeps.

:thumbsup: :laugh:
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
You're trying to impose your own ignorance on me. Sorry for shooting you down. If you can demonstrate where I've tried to use morality to argue any of my points, feel free to point it out. What you call 'elitism' is my education. You don't have it, and it sounds like you're pissed. Instead of admitting that you don't know as much as I do, you try to personally attack me. Whatever floats your boat. I hardly know everything, and I'll readily admit when I'm wrong. This is not one of those cases, however. In this case, in the argument between yourself and myself, it's based on facts. I know the facts, you don't. You demonstrated your lack of knowledge and I can demonstrate my knowledge. I never even claimed that my knowledge is complete - only that it is complete relative to your own. Feel free to ignore me if it makes it easier for you to hold on to your own ego.
LOL! Now I just feel an overwhelming need to try to help you or something. First, you haven't presented any "facts", just windbagging. Second, anyone can claim doctorate after doctorate on the internet, very few care. It's obvious enough you haven't ever left school, so let's not make this ridiculous. Last, your argument is based entirely on morals. It has been ever since I pointed out that the cost of enforcing a tobacco ban would most likely exceed any health savings and you said you didn't care about that. But originally, your entire argument was based on cost considerations. And then it wasn't and you were arguing morals. When that blew up it fell back on your elitism. Finally, unable to admit that you have nothing left, you're attacking me for trying to impose "my ignorance" on you, and wrapping all your many degrees around you, all the while reneging on your bet that I knew nothing about car engines (when in fact I did). It's pretty sad.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
You're trying to impose your own ignorance on me. Sorry for shooting you down. If you can demonstrate where I've tried to use morality to argue any of my points, feel free to point it out. What you call 'elitism' is my education. You don't have it, and it sounds like you're pissed. Instead of admitting that you don't know as much as I do, you try to personally attack me. Whatever floats your boat. I hardly know everything, and I'll readily admit when I'm wrong. This is not one of those cases, however. In this case, in the argument between yourself and myself, it's based on facts. I know the facts, you don't. You demonstrated your lack of knowledge and I can demonstrate my knowledge. I never even claimed that my knowledge is complete - only that it is complete relative to your own. Feel free to ignore me if it makes it easier for you to hold on to your own ego.
LOL! Now I just feel an overwhelming need to try to help you or something. First, you haven't presented any "facts", just windbagging. Second, anyone can claim doctorate after doctorate on the internet, very few care. It's obvious enough you haven't ever left school, so let's not make this ridiculous. Last, your argument is based entirely on morals. It has been ever since I pointed out that the cost of enforcing a tobacco ban would most likely exceed any health savings and you said you didn't care about that. But originally, your entire argument was based on cost considerations. And then it wasn't and you were arguing morals. When that blew up it fell back on your elitism. Finally, unable to admit that you have nothing left, you're attacking me for trying to impose "my ignorance" on you, and wrapping all your many degrees around you, all the while reneging on your bet that I knew nothing about car engines (when in fact I did). It's pretty sad.

It's his normal routine actually, and you're hardly the first to see it or post it here, even though you are 100% correct.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Vic
LOL! Now I just feel an overwhelming need to try to help you or something. First, you haven't presented any "facts", just windbagging. Second, anyone can claim doctorate after doctorate on the internet, very few care. It's obvious enough you haven't ever left school, so let's not make this ridiculous. Last, your argument is based entirely on morals. It has been ever since I pointed out that the cost of enforcing a tobacco ban would most likely exceed any health savings and you said you didn't care about that. But originally, your entire argument was based on cost considerations. And then it wasn't and you were arguing morals. When that blew up it fell back on your elitism. Finally, unable to admit that you have nothing left, you're attacking me for trying to impose "my ignorance" on you, and wrapping all your many degrees around you, all the while reneging on your bet that I knew nothing about car engines (when in fact I did). It's pretty sad.
Actually, I have no moral opposition to smoking. Thanks for trying to denigrate me by assuming away any logic that may reside behind my argument, then hand-waving your argument (something would most likely blah blah unsupported by any facts) into the realm of reality.

Your argument was that automotive exhaust is worse for people than smoking. It's untrue. I told you why in detail. You threw out some handwaving 'calculation' that I pointed out had absolutely no bearing on your claim. Then you started personally attacking me. It's true I've been in school my entire life. It's also true that I've been constantly working since I was in sixth grade - construction, janitor, vacuum salesman, Air Force researcher, environmental researcher, now biomedical researcher. It's also true that I have a great deal of automotive repair experience. I fail to see how my young age makes me any less credible when you're talking about engineering matters such as what constitutes automobile exhaust. If you're going to try to undermine my arguments by claiming that they're morally based, I'd at least choose one that could be morally based. This isn't it.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
I'm still waiting for my mathematical definition of sin and for CycloWizard to prove how a QUESTION can be WRONG.......
 
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