So why did Hillary lose?

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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
I've talked to a few Trump people and they admit they were too scared to tell anyone they supported Trump.
Why?
Because people would think them a bigot.

Which is exactly why the polls were so wrong. People (especially women) didn't want the pollsters judging them.

It is a huge problem that isn't easily fixed. The polls need good data to work but if people feel like they have to keep their vote a secret to avoid scorn it is impossible to get good data.

In this election the left, the media, and even Hillary all decided to NOT give Trump or his supporters the common respect most politicians or supporters get. They all decided that Trump is such a bad guy that they were morally bound to beat that drum every time they could, expecting that everyone decent would abandon him. Instead the decent folk turned to lying to hide their intentions to avoid this scorn, which lead to a complacency on the left and in the media that "they won" when really all they did was set themselves up to fail.

I hope the lesson learned by many people today is a lot of America doesn't care about PC, doesn't care about modern "civil rights" movements. They grew up in an age where what Trump is saying doesn't sound that crazy, and they are sick of the leftist elites telling then they are bad people for how they were raised.

Hell, even if they are bad people there are more of them than you...
 

Kazukian

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,034
650
91
Some people weren't forthcoming with their intent, but the poll modeling of the data they collected was wrong.

I'd read "then we oversampled women, and threw in more Democrat votes, because the undecided will swing 2/3'ds for Hillary" and I'm thinking, WTF? How can that be right?

I knew something was up when social media sources started killing trending topics favoring Trump and or anti Hillary.

This forum is an example of how echo chamber group think got it wrong.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,187
4,871
136
Legal immigrants have never been an issue. It is the illegals who need to leave and if they want US citizenship, follow the established process - just like your wife did.
Melania doesn't agree with you. We are a nation of laws that are supposed to apply to everyone equally and unfortunately those with money can buy their way around them. Our common law system can be beaten with the right representation which correlates to wealth.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,637
30,913
146
I think it's interesting that in California bernie Sanders backed proposition 61 and that proposition failed.

Either Bernie didn't have the influence people thought he had or he wasn't recognized, or people didn't support his message.

It's interesting that CA would have voted for Bernie or Hillary no matter what.

What's your point?
 

jtvang125

Diamond Member
Nov 10, 2004
5,399
51
91
I've talked to a few Trump people and they admit they were too scared to tell anyone they supported Trump.
Why?
Because people would think them a bigot.
And if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck......

Many people assumed that the majority of women and especially college educated women would not vote for trump. Yet almost half (45%) of college educated white women that voted went for trump despite of what he has said about women throughout the campaign and what he has done to them in the past. As you can see many of them just didn't care but kept silent because of the very reason you stated.
 

TeeJay1952

Golden Member
May 28, 2004
1,532
191
106
Calm down. Biggest objections to Trump was He doesn't do what he promises, He has no plan to implement, He takes all side of issues, He promised grandiose things and rolls back after commitment. We complained that we won't know what he will do and we still don't. My greatest hope is he is an Orange Lincoln. He is Schroedinger's President.

We thought Obama would be much more effective than he was. We gave up on Income Equality and focused on Health care for Hobos. Now we focused on Bathroom Inequality for .0001% of population. We need loftier goals.


I feel much more comfortable being an outlaw than trying to explain the Bailout of Banks instead of homeowners.

Beware the Constitutional Convention. It will start out removing Electoral College but will end up who knows where.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
So let me get this straight. All research on the matter points to racial resentment as the driving cause of this election and american politics in general. Trump is the only one smart enough to embrace that as a primary strategy, and demonstrates its veracity by winning against all comers, to the "astonishment" of the establishment (that includes you). Remember that cognitive dissonance thing y'all like to accuse conservatives of? Well, it's not some kind of GOP-only disease, though even their estab clearly didn't want to believe it was so simple, too. Appeal to latinos when they can just do this instead? Ha, the fools.

Yes, racial resentment may have been a common factor among the Trump base support. I just think those supporters are strongly conservative and would have voted for any other republican and certainly not for Clinton. But they were not sufficient to deliver the election to Trump. Some independents and democrats were needed. At least some non-racists were needed. This election turned on a dime. Clinton may have actually won the popular vote by as much as 2 points as it turns out. The sliming of Clinton was enough, way more than enough, to deliver this election to Trump.

Another factor which flipped the election was Trump's wise decision to push an anti free trade agenda as a way to woo rust belt voters. Trump won Michigan, Wisconsin and Penn by very small margins. That single message alone was also enough to deliver him the election. Yet it has nothing to do with race.

As Nate Silver just pointed out in his blog, if 1 in 100 people had flipped back from Trump to Clinton, it would have given her 2 more points and won her the election. In that case, everyone's analysis would be different. We wouldn't be talking about how "racial resentment" won an election. We'd be talking about how it was discredited as an electoral strategy and this is the year of the woman. We would have been wrong. Broad, sweeping conclusions are not warranted in either scenario, because the demographic implications would be nearly identical in either a Trump win or a Clinton win, unless either had won by a landslide. Tiny, narrow shifts one way or another can switch an outcome, but they don't really point to a different analysis of the electorate. In such a close election, any of a number of things which are unique and particular to the candidates could sway the outcome. Like a single October surprise.

I recall after Obama won in 2008 all the liberal commentators triumphantly declaring that the GOP had gone into the "political wilderness" and how they couldn't win presidential elections any more because of shifting demographics. Then they got closer in 2012, and won in 2016. Because the truth was that Obama won in 2008 because of a collapsed economy and because he was a more savvy campaigner than McCain. It wasn't really a tectonic shift then, and it isn't really a tectonic shift now. It had to do with 2 specific candidates and the circumstances/backdrop within the narrow time frame of the election. But think about this: how could Obama have won twice, then Trump wins simply because of high racial resentment among white voters?

Trump's racial messaging may have fired up turnout among his base, or perhaps not. If you listened to Trump supporters, they talked more about despising Clinton than about any of Trump's messaging. Hatred of Clinton could also have increased their turnout. I support this theory because if racial resentment was what pivoted this by firing up the turnout on the right, you'd think a black man running would have done the same, but this turnout among rural whites was lower when Obama ran. Why were the bigots fired up enough to defeat Clinton in 2016 but not enough to defeat an actual black candidate in 2008 or 2012?

The approval ratings of our current, black president were high during this election cycle. But Clinton's approvals were not. This is not explainable by racial resentment. Racial resentment doesn't make a white democrat fare poorly, and a black democrat fare well. It doesn't explain why the black democrat did better with white voters than the white democrat. The simple truth is, Obama would easily have beaten Trump had he been allowed to run for a third term. But not Clinton.

And, if my prediction is correct that Trump will be a horrible president with mid 30's approval, and will lose by a wide margin 2020, then liberals will come out again and say his racial resentment is now discredited and the demographics have permanently shifted against the GOP, but the real reason will simply be that Trump just sucked as a president. Whatever the election result, too many people want to play amateur socialist and ignore the particulars of the candidates and specific circumstances of the election. Broader conclusions make more sense when one candidate wins by a wide margin, although it should be noted Obama won by a very wide margin in '08, yet the dems sociological analysis of that victory was wrong. Even there, it was more about the particulars.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,382
54,034
136
Some people weren't forthcoming with their intent, but the poll modeling of the data they collected was wrong.

I'd read "then we oversampled women, and threw in more Democrat votes, because the undecided will swing 2/3'ds for Hillary" and I'm thinking, WTF? How can that be right?

I knew something was up when social media sources started killing trending topics favoring Trump and or anti Hillary.

This forum is an example of how echo chamber group think got it wrong.

Oversampling doesn't change the poll outcome and pollsters don't select based on party ID. I'm not sure where you heard that from but you got some bad info.
 

Kazukian

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,034
650
91
Oversampling doesn't change the poll outcome and pollsters don't select based on party ID. I'm not sure where you heard that from but you got some bad info.

Sorry, I thought we were in this reality, where every fucking poll was wrong.

They massaged the data because they couldn't imagine a Trump win.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,382
54,034
136
Sorry, I thought we were in this reality, where every fucking poll was wrong.

They massaged the data because they couldn't imagine a Trump win.

You realize the polls were closer to the actual result this year than they were in 2012, right? Did they 'massage' them even more in 2012?

As for being in this reality, that's my whole point. You said something about oversampling, but oversampling is a statistical technique to get a better understanding of smaller groups, it has nothing to do with the end result. (ie: by design you sample 4 times as many women, this means you then weight each woman 1/4th as much as normal) It's an incredibly common thing to do and it has nothing to do with poll accuracy. Second, 'throwing in democrats' is not how any reputable pollster rates their samples. Their methodology is public in case you want to read more about it.

I'm just telling you that your criticisms of the polls are not grounded in fact.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
Sorry, I thought we were in this reality, where every fucking poll was wrong.

They massaged the data because they couldn't imagine a Trump win.

Really? Did they "massage the data" when they overly favored Mitt Romney in 2012? Because as it turns out, the popular vote polling only erred in Clinton's favor by 1-2 points depending on final vote count, while in 2012 it was off in Romney's favor by about 2.5 points. The rust belt polling and polling in a few other states was way off here, for whatever reason. I doubt "massaging" was the reason. Past systemic polling errors have been explained by methodological problems. For example, underpolling of cell phones in 2012. There is no reason to assume it wasn't a different set of methodological errors this time around.

Pollsters do not "massage" their results because pollsters need to be accurate to be credible, and unlike with opinion polling, the accuracy of election polling is always proven by the actual election results. So if you massage your data, you know you will be proven to have gotten it wrong, which will decrease trust in your polling in the future. There's a lot of competition amongst pollsters now. No one is going to flush their credibility down a toilet because of wishful thinking or whatever you are claiming. They did it by making mistakes, not by massaging. It happens all the time with polling.

Edit: eski posted before me and said something similar.
 
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lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,310
687
126
Part of the problem is believing that those voters couldn't possibly have mattered. The other part is thinking that the oft-repeated dem message of "making the 1% pay" still resonates. I do believe that still sells, but this looked like an election about personality. She's out there giving substantive policy messages with details and real solutions, Trump is running around saying "Life bad. Jobs good. Me make jobs and make bad people pay!" All the while, The only message and ads the party put out against Trump were about pussy grabbing and such. Yes, she spent tons of time talking about the vacuousness, incompetence, in inexperience, fantasy of his policies, but those weren't in the ads--the things people see.
Over 70 million people watched the 3rd debate in which Clinton repeatedly invoked the 1%. The message could not have been missed. Indeed, Clinton ran on a platform that is way to the left of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama's.

Under this circumstance, if people voted against her because:

She was in D.C. for 25 years.
She has a vagina.
She is supported by "those people."
James Comey..
etc.

There is not much she could have done differently. That is all I am saying. There is only as much you can say in 30 second commercials. And I do think her ads were effective. (especially the one where children are watching TV)

I am not as upset about the election result as I worry about what is coming. Trump has shown that there is an audience for the kind of demogoguery he pouted, and many in the GOP took notice. Breitbart will grow its size and influence (it is already huge). Newt Gingrich and Ann Coulter will roam around as "change" agents commanding "respect" and followers. Milo Yiannopoulus as White House press secretary. Echo chamber loop is complete and running full steam, etc
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Klein: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/rise-of-the-davos-class-sealed-americas-fate

Frank: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ld-trump-white-house-hillary-clinton-liberals

Greenwald: https://theintercept.com/2016/11/09...gerous-refusal-to-learn-the-lesson-of-brexit/

I hope Democrats learn the right lesson from this election. I fear they won't. Smarter liberals such as the three writers above understand, but most establishment Democrats and the morons in this forum are blaming racists, misogynists, Bernie, 3rd parties, and everyone but themselves.

The Democrats should have beaten Trump easily, but the it's a party of fools.
 
Reactions: Mursilis

Kazukian

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,034
650
91
That 2nd article in the guardian nailed it. To the screaming in Republican's faces...

No they haven't learned, and they're not going to learn. The democrats are so hopelessly corrupted by the Clinton machine that spent a decade stacking the deck it'll take years to clean it up.

Why the fuck does Donna Brazile still have a job? She should have been out on her ass weeks ago.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
As a liberal who supported Obama and Hillary, I've been struggling to make sense of this. On one hand I recognize that I fell victim to the reflexive dismissal of these disaffected rural voters as racists and bigots. Now for a good deal of these people I think that perception is absolutely true, but thats not really the point. The plight of poor blacks manifests undesirable behaviors as well, yet liberals like myself for some reason extend more sympathy to these people due to the historical victimization of blacks as a whole, while they both are legitimately hurting. Democrats and Republicans alike have both victimized this group in different ways. Democrats outright dismiss them, while Republicans have exploited their resentment for the political ends of their donor class while actually working against their interests by helping dismantle trade unions and fighting universal health care. The Republican party likely thinks this has been some kind of validation of conservative orthodoxy, but I think that would be a grievous misreading of the message they have sent. These people dont want what the Paul Ryan's of the party have been selling. They want respect, jobs, and opportunity. If they are given these things, much like poor blacks, the rough edges will be smoothed over, and deplorable can give way to respectable.

The positive I am trying to take from this is that Trump might have wrecked both party establishments, and may give rise to new coalitions that might actually be interested in governing rather than pandering. Much like Trump's ex-wives, he might have little use for the voting coalition that got him there and may ditch it for a new one that sits in the middle somewhere. Trump could propose a deficit funded single payer healthcare system, or a massive infrastructure program and his supporters would gobble it up. His desire for personal greatness should hopefully compel him to be a successful and transcendent president, and spending his time in office catering only to the people who got him there would not further that goal.

With that said, it's far more likely that this will be a fucking disaster, but I'm seeking any silver lining in this mess that I can find.

Great analysis. Much respect.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,310
687
126
Those are lazy criticism that is just as insightful as those in the other direction. For example,

Thomas Frank said:
The even larger problem is that there is a kind of chronic complacency that has been rotting American liberalism for years, a hubris that tells Democrats they need do nothing different, they need deliver nothing really to anyone – except their friends on the Google jet and those nice people at Goldman.

I am not sure if anyone will take a shrill diagnosis like this seriously, even as an exaggeration. It was only a short while ago people complained about either 1) GOP obstructionism, or 2) Obama/Liberal activism depending on their ideological fealty. There is no complacency in American politics. Never have.

Look. People are invested, emotionally and intellectually, in these elections, and I get it that people want answers. But we are in a system where there is one president at a time. That means no matter how well campaigns are run, no matter how superb candidates are, and no matter how hard the parties tried, there will be a winner and a loser. Piling on lazy criticism like the above is what "the media" do, and those who are engaged in it do not even realize that while they criticize "the media" in the same sentence.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
I hope Democrats learn the right lesson from this election. I fear they won't.

I don't fear that they won't learn, I hope they do what any good elitist would do: blame the loss on racists (even though the previous black president did way better and has relatively high approval ratings even currently), misogynists, bigotry blah blah blah, instead of even for a second stopping to think they themselves and their terrible candidate had anything to do with it.

The Democrats should have beaten Trump easily, but the it's a party of fools.

Any reasonable candidate would have taken Trump behind the shed. He's disliked by the vast majority of the population, had no real political qualifications, he has tons of baggage, embarrassing skeletons in his closet, he fought against his own party, said offensive things about several groups, had no "ground game", no campaign to speak of, no giant war chest of big donor contributions, had to battle the full might of the lefty media and the leftist social media empires (facebook, google, twitter etc). He went up against the queen, the anointed one, her majesty in waiting for 8 years for her rightful crown....... and yet he won. You'd think that would be reason for for some soul searching to say "what went wrong here, what did we do wrong", but instead is just leading to the same tired blathering: must have been racists, misogynists, hatemongers etc etc.

I think it's terrific
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,252
16,569
136
Posts like these are what I'm really not looking forward to for the next four years. Just complete ignorance spouted as truth as if trump winning is some sort of validation for their stupidity.

That 2nd article in the guardian nailed it. To the screaming in Republican's faces...

No they haven't learned, and they're not going to learn. The democrats are so hopelessly corrupted by the Clinton machine that spent a decade stacking the deck it'll take years to clean it up.

Why the fuck does Donna Brazile still have a job? She should have been out on her ass weeks ago.

Here's a clue idiot: Republican turnout was less than it was in 2012, there was no energizing of Republicans because of Democrats hate. Democrats, like always, simply didn't show up.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
14,879
10,421
136
As a liberal who supported Obama and Hillary, I've been struggling to make sense of this. On one hand I recognize that I fell victim to the reflexive dismissal of these disaffected rural voters as racists and bigots. Now for a good deal of these people I think that perception is absolutely true, but thats not really the point. The plight of poor blacks manifests undesirable behaviors as well, yet liberals like myself for some reason extend more sympathy to these people due to the historical victimization of blacks as a whole, while they both are legitimately hurting. Democrats and Republicans alike have both victimized this group in different ways. Democrats outright dismiss them, while Republicans have exploited their resentment for the political ends of their donor class while actually working against their interests by helping dismantle trade unions and fighting universal health care. The Republican party likely thinks this has been some kind of validation of conservative orthodoxy, but I think that would be a grievous misreading of the message they have sent. These people dont want what the Paul Ryan's of the party have been selling. They want respect, jobs, and opportunity. If they are given these things, much like poor blacks, the rough edges will be smoothed over, and deplorable can give way to respectable.

The positive I am trying to take from this is that Trump might have wrecked both party establishments, and may give rise to new coalitions that might actually be interested in governing rather than pandering. Much like Trump's ex-wives, he might have little use for the voting coalition that got him there and may ditch it for a new one that sits in the middle somewhere. Trump could propose a deficit funded single payer healthcare system, or a massive infrastructure program and his supporters would gobble it up. His desire for personal greatness should hopefully compel him to be a successful and transcendent president, and spending his time in office catering only to the people who got him there would not further that goal.

With that said, it's far more likely that this will be a fucking disaster, but I'm seeking any silver lining in this mess that I can find.

Nice analysis and we got a major fucking epiphany on how and why NOT to communicate with emails or on a private server.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
Posts like these are what I'm really not looking forward to for the next four years. Just complete ignorance spouted as truth as if trump winning is some sort of validation for their stupidity.



Here's a clue idiot: Republican turnout was less than it was in 2012, there was no energizing of Republicans because of Democrats hate. Democrats, like always, simply didn't show up.

True. She'll win in 2020. Hang in there bud.
 
Reactions: Kazukian

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Posts like these are what I'm really not looking forward to for the next four years. Just complete ignorance spouted as truth as if trump winning is some sort of validation for their stupidity.

Here's a clue idiot: Republican turnout was less than it was in 2012, there was no energizing of Republicans because of Democrats hate. Democrats, like always, simply didn't show up.

What do you think the over/under on how long it will take for folks like ivwshane and Jhhnn to accept that Clinton was a terrible and hugely disliked candidate that was a bad choice to run? I bet Jhhnn goes to his grave thinking Hillary was great, and ivwshane will admit it once the next set of nominees is in play and he can focus on how great they are instead.
 
Reactions: BoberFett

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
The below chart isn't the full story, you need to look at how things changed from 2012. Trump merely maintained with whites. Clinton lost minorities.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...s-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

*White, straight, Christian and predominantly male working class people. Virtually every other group swung heavily toward Clinton (see the chart below as a representative example). It just so happens that the US is still mostly white in battleground states.

Also, don't confuse anti-establishment sentiment with a frustration with liberal agendas. Or pretend that a self-proclaimed billionaire who evades taxes and represents big business is a man of the people. I suspect that people just thought Clinton was too establishment and voted accordingly.

 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,252
16,569
136
Nice analysis and we got a major fucking epiphany on how and why NOT to communicate with emails or on a private server.

Pretty much.

Take a guess at what president elect doesn't use a computer let alone email?
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
You realize the polls were closer to the actual result this year than they were in 2012, right? Did they 'massage' them even more in 2012?

As for being in this reality, that's my whole point. You said something about oversampling, but oversampling is a statistical technique to get a better understanding of smaller groups, it has nothing to do with the end result. (ie: by design you sample 4 times as many women, this means you then weight each woman 1/4th as much as normal) It's an incredibly common thing to do and it has nothing to do with poll accuracy. Second, 'throwing in democrats' is not how any reputable pollster rates their samples. Their methodology is public in case you want to read more about it.

I'm just telling you that your criticisms of the polls are not grounded in fact.

From what you just said wouldn't that technique still overweight the opinion of that one group that was over sampled? Assuming that group has an opinion that is drastically different from all other groups involved?
 
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