Social Security

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conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I want 100% control of all of my money. I want a flat federal tax % for everyone, everywhere. I want the IRS dismantled and rebuilt from scratch to support the simple new flat taxes.

I wish to be 100% responsible for my own retirement funding. If I somehow blow it all and plan badly, then too damn bad for me.

None of these things will happen with a Deomocratic administration. No Democrat in office believes that the people know better than the government in terms of planning for the future and spending our own money how/where/why we wish.
Sh*t in one hand and want in the other and see which one fills up first.

There will never be a flat Federal tax $. The IRS will never be dismantled. Doesn't matter who's in office.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.

That's not really a fix, that just puts the problem off for a couple years.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.

Not a long term fix.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.
That's not really a fix, that just puts the problem off for a couple years.
It adds another 37 years to the 2042 date for the exhaustion of the trust fund.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.
That's not really a fix, that just puts the problem off for a couple years.
It adds another 37 years to the 2042 date for the exhaustion of the trust fund.

Perfect, we can pass the legacy and burden onto multiple generations!
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
No, moran. That allows the government to find a permanent fix. And, who knows, by then we just might have more workers than retirees and money will be flowing in in waves.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: conjur
No, moran. That allows the government to find a permanent fix. And, who knows, by then we just might have more workers than retirees and money will be flowing in in waves.

And who knows monkeys could be free flowing our of your arse as well,

oh wait.....

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Nothing says somebody lacks a thoughful response than a cookie.

Thank you and Ill have another.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.
That's not really a fix, that just puts the problem off for a couple years.
It adds another 37 years to the 2042 date for the exhaustion of the trust fund.

The exhaustion of the trust fund isn't when the problem starts. We're going to have to start digging into our other tax revenue around 2018.

Can you provide a link for the 37 years? I'd like to see the info on that.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.

That's not really a fix, that just puts the problem off for a couple years.

When in doubt, tax the rich! I wonder what Bill Gates's return on SS will be under conjur's plan.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Bush has the same MO on Social Security that he had on Iraq. First he invents some lie to justify his agenda then he sells the lie to the American people then he acts based on the lie.

Bush's attack on Social Security is based on a lie -- that and the class warfare his family has waged for as long as anyone can remember.

Social Security isn't going anywhere and Bush knows it. But his whispering campaign is starting up again. Who was it this time? Rove? Limbaugh? Hannity?

While we're on the subject of retirement, another small problem based on the Bush agenda is on the horizon...

More Companies Ending Promises for Retirement

By MARY WILLIAMS WALSH
Published: January 9, 2006

The death knell for the traditional company pension has been tolling for some time now. Companies in ailing industries like steel, airlines and auto parts have thrown themselves into bankruptcy and turned over their ruined pension plans to the federal government.

Now, with the recent announcements of pension freezes by some of the cream of corporate America - Verizon, Lockheed Martin, Motorola and, just last week, I.B.M. - the bell is tolling even louder. Even strong, stable companies with the means to operate a pension plan are facing longer worker lifespans, looming regulatory and accounting changes and, most important, heightened global competition. Some are deciding they either cannot, or will not, keep making the decades-long promises that a pension plan involves.

I.B.M. was once a standard-bearer for corporate America's compact with its workers, paying for medical expenses, country clubs and lavish Christmas parties for the children. It also rewarded long-serving employees with a guaranteed monthly stipend from retirement until death.

Most of those perks have long since been scaled back at I.B.M. and elsewhere, but the pension freeze is the latest sign that today's workers are, to a much greater extent, on their own. Companies now emphasize 401(k) plans, which leave workers responsible for ensuring that they have adequate funds for retirement and expose them to the vagaries of the financial markets.

"I.B.M. has, over the last couple of generations, defined an employer's responsibility to its employees," said Peter Capelli, a professor of management at the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. "It paved the way for this kind of swap of loyalty for security."

Mr. Capelli called the switch from a pension plan to a 401(k) program "the most visible manifestation of the shifting of risk onto employees." He added: "People just have to deal with a lot more risk in their lives, because all these things that used to be more or less assured - a job, health care, a pension - are now variable."

I.B.M. said it is discontinuing its pension plan for competitive reasons, and that it plans to set up an unusually rich 401(k) plan as a replacement. The company is also trying to protect its own financial health and avoid the fate of companies like General Motors that have been burdened by pension costs. Freezing the pension plan can reduce the impact of external forces like interest-rate changes, which have made the plan cost much more than expected.

"It's the prudent, responsible thing to do right now," said J. Randall MacDonald, I.B.M.'s senior vice president for human resources. He said the new plan would "far exceed any average benchmark" in its attractiveness.

Pension advocates said they were dismayed that rich and powerful companies like I.B.M. and Verizon would abandon traditional pensions.

"With Verizon, we're talking about a company at the top of its game," said Karen Friedman, director of policy studies for the Pension Rights Center, an advocacy group in Washington. "They have a huge profit. Their C.E.O. has given himself a huge compensation package. And then they're saying, 'In order to compete, sorry, we have to freeze the pensions.' If companies freeze the pensions, what are employees left with?"

Verizon's chief executive, Ivan Seidenberg, said in December that his company's decision to freeze its pension plan for about 50,000 management employees would make the company more competitive, and also "provide employees a transition to a retirement plan more in line with current trends, allowing employees to have greater accountability in managing their own finances and for companies to offer greater portability through personal savings accounts."

In a pension freeze, the company stops the growth of its employees' retirement benefits, which normally build up with each additional year of service. When they retire, the employees will still receive the benefits they earned before the freeze.

Like I.B.M., Verizon said it would replace its frozen pension plan with a 401(k) plan, also known as a defined-contribution plan. This means the sponsoring employer creates individual savings accounts for workers, withholds money from their paychecks for them to contribute, and sometimes matches some portion of the contributions. But the participating employees are responsible for choosing an investment strategy. Traditional pensions are backed by a government guarantee; defined-contribution plans are not.

Precisely how many companies have frozen their pension plans is not known. Data collected by the government are old and imperfect, and companies do not always publicize the freezes. But the trend appears to be accelerating.

As recently as 2003, most of the plans that had been frozen were small ones, with less than 100 participants, according to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, which insures traditional pensions. The freezes happened most often in troubled industries like steel and textiles, the guarantor found.

Only a year ago, when I.B.M. decided to close its pension plan to new employees, it said it was "still committed to defined-benefit pensions."

But now the company has given its imprimatur to the exodus from traditional pensions. Its pension fund, the third largest behind General Motors and General Electric, is a pace-setter. Industry surveys suggest that more big, healthy companies will do what I.B.M. did this year and next.

"There's a little bit of a herd mentality," said Syl Schieber, director of research for Watson Wyatt Worldwide, a large consulting firm that surveyed the nation's 1,000 largest companies and reported a sharp increase in the number of pension freezes in 2004 and 2005. The thinking grows out of boardroom relationships, he said, where leaders of large companies compare notes and discuss strategy.

Another factor appears to be impatience with long-running efforts by Congress to tighten the pension rules, Mr. Schieber said. Congress has been struggling for three years with the problem of how to make sure companies measure their pension promises accurately - a key to making sure they set aside enough money to make good. But it is likely to be costly for some companies to reserve enough money to meet the new rules, and they - and some unions - have lobbied hard to keep the existing rules intact, or even to weaken them. So far, consensus has eluded the lawmakers.

"If Congress will not do its job and clarify the regulatory environment, then I think more and more companies will come to the conclusion that, given everything else that they've got to face, this just isn't the way to go," Mr. Schieber said of the traditional pension route.

Defined-benefit pensions proliferated after World War II and reached their peak in the late 1970's, when about 62 percent of all active workers were covered solely by such plans, according to the Employee Benefit Research Institute, a Washington organization financed by companies and unions. A slow, steady erosion then began, and by 1997, only 13 percent of workers had a pension plan as their sole retirement benefit. The percentage has held steady in the years since then. The growth of defined-contribution plans has mirrored the disappearance of pension plans. In 1979, 16 percent of active workers had a defined contribution plan and no pension, but by 2004 the number had grown to 62 percent.

For many workers, the movement away from traditional pensions is going to be difficult. Already there are signs that people are retiring later, or taking other jobs to support themselves in old age. Participation in a pension plan is involuntary, but most 401(k) plans let employees decide whether to contribute any money - or none at all. Research shows that many people fail to put money into their retirement accounts, or invest it poorly once it is there.

Even skillful 401(k) investors can be badly tripped up if the markets tumble just at the time they were planning to retire. Mr. Schieber of Watson Wyatt ran scenarios of what would happen to a hypothetical man who went to work at 25, put 6 percent of his pay into a 401(k) account every year for 40 years, retired at 65, then withdrew his account balance and used it to buy an annuity, a financial product that, like a pension, pays a lifelong monthly stipend.

He found that if the man turned 65 in 2000 he would have enough 401(k) savings to buy an annuity that paid 134 percent of his pre-retirement income. But if he turned 65 in 2003, his 401(k) savings would only buy an annuity rich enough to replace 57 percent of his pre-retirement income.

When a company switches from a pension plan to a 401(k) plan, the transition is hardest on the older workers. That is because they lose their final years in the pension plan - often the years when they would have built up the biggest part of their benefit. They then start from zero in the new retirement plan.

Jack VanDerhei, an actuary who is a fellow at the Employee Benefit Research Institute, offered a hypothetical example. If a man joins a firm at 40, works 15 years, and is making $80,000 a year by age 55, he might expect to have built up a pension worth $16,305 a year by that time, Mr. VanDerhei said. If he keeps on working under the same pension plan, that benefit will have increased to $27,175 a year when he retires at 65.

But if instead when the man turns 55 his company freezes the pension plan and sets up a 401(k) plan, the man will get just the $16,305 a year, plus whatever he is able to amass in the 401(k). It will take both discipline and investment skill to reach the equivalent of the old pension payments in just ten years, Mr. VanDerhei said.

For women, the challenge is even tougher. They have longer life expectancies, so they have to pay more than men if they buy annuities in the open market. It turns out the traditional, pooled pension offered them a perk they did not even know they had.

Just how do you Bushies expect people to survive? First you want to destroy the system they've been paying into and been promised benefits from all their lives then the business people who Americans bail out every time due to their incompetent leadership deep six the pensions they've been promised all their lives.

Just what are people who have played by the set of rules they were told to play by supposed to do when suddenly Bush decides to change all the rules? Are they supposed to just disappear?

Is that the goal of Bush's class warfare?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
PS For those people who insist on quoting Roosevelt on Social Security I always like to point to Reagan.

:laugh:
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.
That's not really a fix, that just puts the problem off for a couple years.
When in doubt, tax the rich! I wonder what Bill Gates's return on SS will be under conjur's plan.
Nowhere near as much you think. Last I knew his salary wasn't much over $300k/yr.

But, it's either remove the cap or increase the minimum wage to livable levels, say, $9-10/hr. That will pump a lot more into the SS trust fund from the workers who'll most likely be using it. Plus it will give them the ability to provide for themselves so they won't be living off of those social programs you despise so much.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.
That's not really a fix, that just puts the problem off for a couple years.
It adds another 37 years to the 2042 date for the exhaustion of the trust fund.
The exhaustion of the trust fund isn't when the problem starts. We're going to have to start digging into our other tax revenue around 2018.

Can you provide a link for the 37 years? I'd like to see the info on that.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/24/retirement/wagecap_elimination/
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Just how do you Bushies expect people to survive? First you want to destroy the system they've been paying into and been promised benefits from all their lives then the business people who Americans bail out every time due to their incompetent leadership deep six the pensions they've been promised all their lives.

Just what are people who have played by the set of rules they were told to play by supposed to do when suddenly Bush decides to change all the rules? Are they supposed to just disappear?

Is that the goal of Bush's class warfare?

The only answer you will get will be a quick one liner that offers no solution to the problem that they won't even acknowledge exists

Does something need to be done with SS, medicaid, medicare? I think so, so build up a new system that bundles all three into a streamlined package for all americans. You pay in and you recieve retirement, and medical for yourself and your family. And next get rid of the pig known as the health insurance companies.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,080
136
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: BBond
PS For those people who insist on quoting Roosevelt on Social Security I always like to point to Reagan. :laugh:
:thumbsup:
Yup. The GOP can point fingers all they want. They're still evil and selfish.
You what's the the best argument a republican has?

"DEMOCRATS! Look, over there! Those darn democrats! Look, they're at it again! NO,NO,NO,NO,NO,! Dont look at us! Look at those darn democrats! They're bad!"
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Which party was opposed to Social Security from the very beginning and is now trying to kill Social Security outright?

Ummm, yep. The Repulican Party.

Which party took a budget surplus and overnight turned it into a budget deficit with their irresponsible tax cut for the rich instead of using that surplus to pay back some of the money that both parties spent out of the Social Security trust fund over the years?

Ummm, yep. The Republican Party.

 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.
That's not really a fix, that just puts the problem off for a couple years.
It adds another 37 years to the 2042 date for the exhaustion of the trust fund.
The exhaustion of the trust fund isn't when the problem starts. We're going to have to start digging into our other tax revenue around 2018.

Can you provide a link for the 37 years? I'd like to see the info on that.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/24/retirement/wagecap_elimination/

Thanks for the link.

The problem with that solution is that sure it does increase the date for exhaustion by 37 years but it only raises the time until we have to dip into other tax revenue by 6 years. Those liabilities have to get paid somehow. I'd prefer not paying too higher taxes. Anyway you look at it, the returns on Social Security will go down significantly. I'm fine with eliminating the wage cap as long as there is some privitization. I really haven't heard any good arguments against it.

I think Bush killed SS privitization by spending up big deficits, not allowing higher taxes to fund it, and not allowing for the elimination of the wage cap.
 
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