Social Security

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marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Greenspan's Fraud
Thought some of you might like this. I saw this guy on TV a few months ago and it all makes perfect sense.

Reagan got Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Alan Greenspan
together to form a commission on Social Security reform, along with a few other politicians and economists, and they recommend a near-doubling of the Social Security tax on the then-working Boomers. That tax created - for the first time in history - a giant savings account that Social Security could use to pay for the Boomers' retirement.

This was a huge change. Prior to this, Social Security had always paid for today's retirees with income from today's workers (it still is today). The Boomers were the first generation that would pay Social Security taxes both to fund current retirees and save up enough money to pay for their own retirement. And, after the Boomers were all retired and the savings account - called the "Social Security Trust Fund" - was all spent, the rabbit would have finished its journey through the python and Social Security could go back to a "pay as you go" taxing system.

Thus, within the period of a few short years, Reagan dramatically dropped the income tax on America's most wealthy by more than half, and roughly doubled the Social Security tax on people earning $30,000 or less. It was, simultaneously, the largest income tax cut in America's history (almost entirely for the very wealthy), and the most massive tax increase in the history of the nation (which entirely hit working-class people).

But Reagan still had a problem. His tax cuts for the wealthy - even when moderated by subsequent tax increases - weren't generating enough money to invest properly in America's infrastructure, schools, police and fire departments, and military. The country was facing bankruptcy.

No problem, suggested Greenspan. Just borrow the Boomer's savings account - the money in the Social Security Trust Fund - and, because you're borrowing "government money" to fund "government expenditures," you don't have to list it as part of the deficit. Much of the deficit will magically seem to disappear, and nobody will know what you did for another 50 years when the Boomers begin to retire 2015.

Reagan jumped at the opportunity. As did George H. W. Bush. As did Bill Clinton (although Al Gore argued strongly that Social Security funds should not be raided, but, instead, put in a "lock box"). And so did George W. Bush.

The result is that all that money - trillions of dollars - that has been taxed out of working Boomers (the ceiling has risen from the tax being on your first $30,000 of income to the first $90,000 today) has been borrowed and spent. What are left behind are a special form of IOUs - an unique form of Treasury debt instruments similar (but not identical) to those the government issues to borrow money from China today to fund George W. Bush's most recent tax cuts for billionaires (George Junior is still also "borrowing" from the Social Security Trust Fund).


Greenspan's Fraud: How Two Decades of His Policies Have Undermined the Global Economy by Ravi Batra

http://www.buzzflash.com/hartmann/05/07/har05007.html
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Thanks for the link.

The problem with that solution is that sure it does increase the date for exhaustion by 37 years but it only raises the time until we have to dip into other tax revenue by 6 years. Those liabilities have to get paid somehow. I'd prefer not paying too higher taxes. Anyway you look at it, the returns on Social Security will go down significantly. I'm fine with eliminating the wage cap as long as there is some privitization. I really haven't heard any good arguments against it.

I think Bush killed SS privitization by spending up big deficits, not allowing higher taxes to fund it, and not allowing for the elimination of the wage cap.
The Propagandist killed privatization by backing a failed plan and going around the country and speaking to hand-picked and bused-in crowds. He didn't want a debate on the issue. He wanted to ram it down our throats so his cronies could make some bank and he could move to assigning a stigma that Social Security was for the poor.

The rich have gotten tremendous gifts from this administration and it cut into tax revenues (lowest % of GDP in 40 years) and more and more financial burden is being placed on the lower and middle classes.

Why not bump up the minimum wage to at least $8/hr and index it to the rate of inflation, permanently? That will increase the monies going into Social Security by those who will most likely be the ones needing it and it will still put money in their pockets to help them survive and lessen the burden on the social programs, too.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur

Nowhere near as much you think. Last I knew his salary wasn't much over $300k/yr.

But, it's either remove the cap or increase the minimum wage to livable levels, say, $9-10/hr. That will pump a lot more into the SS trust fund from the workers who'll most likely be using it. Plus it will give them the ability to provide for themselves so they won't be living off of those social programs you despise so much.
If they were worthy of $10 an hour they would be paid so.

Of course people like you want to collect their SS payments with 1 hand and hand out welfare checks with the other. Circular flow of money indeed!

All your imaginary nonsense would do is create unemployment for those individuals meriting a $6 an hour wage and put then on government teat. But I guess thats what you want.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: conjur

Nowhere near as much you think. Last I knew his salary wasn't much over $300k/yr.

But, it's either remove the cap or increase the minimum wage to livable levels, say, $9-10/hr. That will pump a lot more into the SS trust fund from the workers who'll most likely be using it. Plus it will give them the ability to provide for themselves so they won't be living off of those social programs you despise so much.
If they were worthy of $10 an hour they would be paid so.

Of course people like you want to collect their SS payments with 1 hand and hand out welfare checks with the other. Circular flow of money indeed!

All your imaginary nonsense would do is create unemployment for those individuals meriting a $6 an hour wage and put then on government teat. But I guess thats what you want.

$6/hr??? It should be illegal to pay such a pitance and call that a living. Starvation wages so a-holes like you can sit around and bitch about people being on the goverment teat? Why don't you take your insane ideas someplace else because you bring absolutley nothing to the table.

Conjur has the right idea. If a business can only afford to pay $6/hr then it should move to someplace where people can live on $6/hr. Take those jobs to the third world countries where they need them instead of forcing the taxpayer to subsidize businesses loike Walmart.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: conjur

Nowhere near as much you think. Last I knew his salary wasn't much over $300k/yr.

But, it's either remove the cap or increase the minimum wage to livable levels, say, $9-10/hr. That will pump a lot more into the SS trust fund from the workers who'll most likely be using it. Plus it will give them the ability to provide for themselves so they won't be living off of those social programs you despise so much.
If they were worthy of $10 an hour they would be paid so.

Of course people like you want to collect their SS payments with 1 hand and hand out welfare checks with the other. Circular flow of money indeed!

All your imaginary nonsense would do is create unemployment for those individuals meriting a $6 an hour wage and put then on government teat. But I guess thats what you want.

$6/hr??? It should be illegal to pay such a pitance and call that a living. Starvation wages so a-holes like you can sit around and bitch about people being on the goverment teat? Why don't you take your insane ideas someplace else because you bring absolutley nothing to the table.

Conjur has the right idea. If a business can only afford to pay $6/hr then it should move to someplace where people can live on $6/hr. Take those jobs to the third world countries where they need them instead of forcing the taxpayer to subsidize businesses loike Walmart.

Insane ideas? This is the law. A business can afford to pay more that $6 an hour, but why should it pay above market value? That runs against the concept of profit maximization.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Insane ideas? This is the law. A business can afford to pay more that $6 an hour, but why should it pay above market value? That runs against the concept of profit maximization.
And now we get to the heart of the matter.

All hail the mighty corporation! Let's all kiss the asses of every CEO!


"Please, sir, I want some more."
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Cooler
They need to get rid of it . I hate having chunk of my pay check going in there when there is a good chance i will never see it when a get to 65.
There's an easy fix for SS.

Eliminate the wage cap.
That's not really a fix, that just puts the problem off for a couple years.
It adds another 37 years to the 2042 date for the exhaustion of the trust fund.
The exhaustion of the trust fund isn't when the problem starts. We're going to have to start digging into our other tax revenue around 2018.

Can you provide a link for the 37 years? I'd like to see the info on that.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/24/retirement/wagecap_elimination/

People seem to like to throw around numbers. While they mention the date at which the thing starts becoming a leach at 2024 they make it sound as if the program is fine until 2074 which it isnt.

The big number is 2018 or if they erase the cap 2024. Because that is when they start dipping into the tax revenue stream to fund the bloated pig. Each year it grows and grows. The solution to raise the cap gives us a whole 6 more years to twiddle our thumbs and stick them up our arse bickering about solutions that will fix it permantly. Raisng the cap doesnt fix it and only gives us 6 more years before it affects our budget.

At the same time nobody knows what raising the cap will do on income growth for the highest % of the nation who fund 54% of our federal tax dollars. It could very well stagnant those wages and cause lower than expected federal tax dollars collected that will make it even harder to fund SS after 2024.


 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: conjur

Nowhere near as much you think. Last I knew his salary wasn't much over $300k/yr.

But, it's either remove the cap or increase the minimum wage to livable levels, say, $9-10/hr. That will pump a lot more into the SS trust fund from the workers who'll most likely be using it. Plus it will give them the ability to provide for themselves so they won't be living off of those social programs you despise so much.
If they were worthy of $10 an hour they would be paid so.

Of course people like you want to collect their SS payments with 1 hand and hand out welfare checks with the other. Circular flow of money indeed!

All your imaginary nonsense would do is create unemployment for those individuals meriting a $6 an hour wage and put then on government teat. But I guess thats what you want.

$6/hr??? It should be illegal to pay such a pitance and call that a living. Starvation wages so a-holes like you can sit around and bitch about people being on the goverment teat? Why don't you take your insane ideas someplace else because you bring absolutley nothing to the table.

Conjur has the right idea. If a business can only afford to pay $6/hr then it should move to someplace where people can live on $6/hr. Take those jobs to the third world countries where they need them instead of forcing the taxpayer to subsidize businesses loike Walmart.

Insane ideas? This is the law. A business can afford to pay more that $6 an hour, but why should it pay above market value? That runs against the concept of profit maximization.

You mean against the concept of GREED, don't you Mr. Dollar sign? I have nothing against a business making a profit, but it needs to take care of it's employees instead of being allowed to use them up and throw them away like they are nothing but toilet paper.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: zendari
Insane ideas? This is the law. A business can afford to pay more that $6 an hour, but why should it pay above market value? That runs against the concept of profit maximization.

You mean against the concept of GREED, don't you Mr. Dollar sign? I have nothing against a business making a profit, but it needs to take care of it's employees instead of being allowed to use them up and throw them away like they are nothing but toilet paper.
It is taking care of its employees. In exchange for their services every employee receives a salary of some sort.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: zendari
Insane ideas? This is the law. A business can afford to pay more that $6 an hour, but why should it pay above market value? That runs against the concept of profit maximization.
And now we get to the heart of the matter.

All hail the mighty corporation! Let's all kiss the asses of every CEO!


"Please, sir, I want some more."

 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Insane ideas? This is the law. A business can afford to pay more that $6 an hour, but why should it pay above market value? That runs against the concept of profit maximization.

You mean against the concept of GREED, don't you Mr. Dollar sign? I have nothing against a business making a profit, but it needs to take care of it's employees instead of being allowed to use them up and throw them away like they are nothing but toilet paper.[/quote]

He doesn't understand how anyone can care for their fellow humans. He constantly throws in comments about abortion, but could care less what happens to the baby once it pops out, he constantly talks out against SS and the elderly, but admitted he had no grandparents himself.

I can see how misguided you might be, as I had an ideallistic view of the business world when I was 19 and fresh out of school with an AAS. However it didn't take long for me to find out how heartless corporations can be and how in the end you have to look after your self. Zendari would probably be happy for working conditions to degenerate back to the standard of the late 1800's / early 1900's, can you say sweatshops or worse?

I rarely say this, but I hope you have some bad luck in life, maybe a layoff or two, maybe a stretch in a homeless shelter, or possibly be forced to enlist because no other work is available. Maybe some severe health problems w/o having good insurance so you can see how fast medical bills can accumulate, or maybe the death of a spouse so you can see how a two income family is dropped to one overnight, plus the burden of being a single parent.

Until that day happens I have / will never have any respect for you or your ilk.

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: zendari
Insane ideas? This is the law. A business can afford to pay more that $6 an hour, but why should it pay above market value? That runs against the concept of profit maximization.

You mean against the concept of GREED, don't you Mr. Dollar sign? I have nothing against a business making a profit, but it needs to take care of it's employees instead of being allowed to use them up and throw them away like they are nothing but toilet paper.
It is taking care of its employees. In exchange for their services every employee receives a salary of some sort.
no Zensari, you dont get it. what these people want is their CEO to hold their hands and wrap them up in cozy little blankets. it's apparently HIS job to make sure they spend their money intelligently, and that they also plan ahead appropriately for their future. and whatever their CEO cant help them do, they want Uncle Sam to do it for them... and for everyone else too!

bah...SOFT i say... this entire country has grown SOFT! 49.9% of our nation are a bunch of Sallies who want to be coddled from birth until death.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I always find it sad liberals on these forums cant express their ideas without hoping for something bad to happen to the person they are conversing with.

 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
I always find it sad liberals on these forums cant express their ideas without hoping for something bad to happen to the person they are conversing with.

Yeah, but what do you expect? They reek of desperation and jealousy.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Originally posted by: Genx87
I always find it sad liberals on these forums cant express their ideas without hoping for something bad to happen to the person they are conversing with.


Unfortuately that is what it takes in our mind numbed society .....
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: Genx87
I always find it sad liberals on these forums cant express their ideas without hoping for something bad to happen to the person they are conversing with.


Unfortuately that is what it takes in our mind numbed society .....

No it doesnt
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: Genx87
I always find it sad liberals on these forums cant express their ideas without hoping for something bad to happen to the person they are conversing with.

Yeah, but what do you expect? They reek of desperation and jealousy.


Try pity
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: Genx87
I always find it sad liberals on these forums cant express their ideas without hoping for something bad to happen to the person they are conversing with.

Yeah, but what do you expect? They reek of desperation and jealousy.

I was thinking more along the lines of they just arent nice people period.
Anybody who hopes somebody else into poverty or bad health is most like not a nice person at all.

it is the same type of people who goto a reagan movie and cheer when he dies in the movie or cheer when he dies in real life. Just not very nice people.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
He doesn't understand how anyone can care for their fellow humans. He constantly throws in comments about abortion, but could care less what happens to the baby once it pops out, he constantly talks out against SS and the elderly, but admitted he had no grandparents himself.

I can see how misguided you might be, as I had an ideallistic view of the business world when I was 19 and fresh out of school with an AAS. However it didn't take long for me to find out how heartless corporations can be and how in the end you have to look after your self. Zendari would probably be happy for working conditions to degenerate back to the standard of the late 1800's / early 1900's, can you say sweatshops or worse?

I rarely say this, but I hope you have some bad luck in life, maybe a layoff or two, maybe a stretch in a homeless shelter, or possibly be forced to enlist because no other work is available. Maybe some severe health problems w/o having good insurance so you can see how fast medical bills can accumulate, or maybe the death of a spouse so you can see how a two income family is dropped to one overnight, plus the burden of being a single parent.

Until that day happens I have / will never have any respect for you or your ilk.
Funny how the employees have so little compassions for the company.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
0
76
That is a horrible idea. That just removes any incentive to find a fix for another 32 years.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: zendari
Insane ideas? This is the law. A business can afford to pay more that $6 an hour, but why should it pay above market value? That runs against the concept of profit maximization.
And now we get to the heart of the matter.

All hail the mighty corporation! Let's all kiss the asses of every CEO!


"Please, sir, I want some more."
Awww...truth hurts, eh?

Is your daddy some CEO someplace and spouting so much right-wing crap that it's affected your ability to think?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Funny how the employees have so little compassions for the company.
compassion for a company? WTF? Employees owe a company nothing other than putting in a good day's work. The company owes the employee a decent (at least living) wage and benefits.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106


[/quote]
Funny how the employees have so little compassions for the company.[/quote]


Work for a few years before saying that. My experience has been the employees are only as loyal as the company is loyal to them (respect is earned). I worked at a semiconductor plant that offered a mediocre wage ($10 / hr), but with a phenominal benefits package). Most the the employees were happy, and profits were at record levels. Six months after I started they went public. All of a sudden the company focus was shifted from good product and the employees to the shareholders. Quality went down, as they started laying off and replacing employees with temps, and benefits were cut. Do you really expect a company to recieve respect under those kinds of conditions? Overall community opion of this plant has gone down, and anymore it is considered a last resort place to work at. Sadly this is what is happening in America. Anymore if you expect any kind of loyalty you have to look for a small business or a government job.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: zendari
Insane ideas? This is the law. A business can afford to pay more that $6 an hour, but why should it pay above market value? That runs against the concept of profit maximization.

You mean against the concept of GREED, don't you Mr. Dollar sign? I have nothing against a business making a profit, but it needs to take care of it's employees instead of being allowed to use them up and throw them away like they are nothing but toilet paper.
It is taking care of its employees. In exchange for their services every employee receives a salary of some sort.

Cop out. Just what I would expect from someone like you.
 
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