Star Trek Voyager: Waking Moments

[poofyhairguy]

I disagree. She sacrifices a future version of herself to the borg to save the crew.

Sure, at the end of the series run. If it would have been Sisko, he would have taken the deal in Death Wish and they all would have been back before the third season.

She did everything she could to balance the safety and well being with the crew against their mission of exploration, helping those in need and upholding the prime directive.

Which is dumb. They were stranded in the middle of a distant space with no backup, no supplies, and little hope to see loved ones. She should have dumped the mission, sodomized the Prime Directive and gotten her people home- you know Starfleet wouldn't punish her for it!! I mean, every other Starfleet captain that got a show violated the Prime Directive for lesser reasons.

That was the whole problem with the show. The entire premise does not fit very well with an episodic format. To cause tension you need struggle, but unlike TNG, TOS or DS9 we can't assume they just ran to a Starbase between episodes to fix the damage from the last plot twist.

Either they should have abandoned the stranded aspect, or they should have embraced it and moved to a serial format for the episodes. What makes it worse is between now and then we have BSG NAILING the desperate struggle that Voy should have had. Once the first season of BSG ended Voy became as dated as a family sitcom.

 

[mikeymikec]

IMO TNG raised the bar for sci-fi series but then it didn't continue to excel, and instead the same old writing style and format was recycled throughout ST series in the future (not so sure about DS9, but then its 'space soap' format really annoyed me and I didn't watch much of it). TNG got away with the recycling to some extent because (IMO), Patrick Stewart's acting ability. IMO his performances a lot of the time helped bolster iffy scripts and made better scripts shine.

By the time ST got to Voyager, the recycling had been going on a long time but the actors, passable as they were for the most part, could not deliver performances to compensate for the iffy scripts as well as an apparently staple part of Star Trek - the (generally speaking) two-dimensional characters depthwise.

 

[Skel]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ResetButton

It is why I won't watch Voyager. Well that and the fact Janeway doesn't actually do everything she can to get her crew back home. Sisko does everything to win the war and it is is painful in comparison.

I met a guy back in the 90s when I worked in comics that had a short lived job with the TNG. He had coined the phrase I still use today, of "Star Trek Syndrome". It's basically the reset button you mention. As he would tell it, you could do whatever you wanted with everyone as long as you put the toys back on the shelf exactly how you found them in the last ten mins of the episode. While I know there have been other shows before ST that did it, I can't think of a more blatant showing of it. How else would one explain Picard being absorbed into the Borg and somehow keeping command of the Federations' flagship?

 

[Tim]

Here I come with my usual comment that rustles so many jimmies...

All trek is good trek.

 

[Jeff7]

I met a guy back in the 90s when I worked in comics that had a short lived job with the TNG. He had coined the phrase I still use today, of "Star Trek Syndrome". It's basically the reset button you mention. As he would tell it, you could do whatever you wanted with everyone as long as you put the toys back on the shelf exactly how you found them in the last ten mins of the episode. While I know there have been other shows before ST that did it, I can't think of a more blatant showing of it. How else would one explain Picard being absorbed into the Borg and somehow keeping command of the Federations' flagship?

They also mentioned that sort of thing in The Inner Light, where Picard is given a lifetime of memories from someone living on a planet who's parent star was dying, and life on the planet was also slowly dying off.

Ronald Moore:
"I've always felt that the experience in "Inner Light" would've been the most profound experience in Picard's life and changed him irrevocably. However, that wasn't our intention when we were creating the episode. We were after a good hour of TV, and the larger implications of how this would really screw somebody up didn't hit home with us until later (that's sometimes a danger in TV – you're so focused on just getting the show produced every week that sometimes you suffer from the "can't see the forest for the trees" syndrome)."



Voyager did love time travel though. "There we go, everything's back to normal now! Don't worry, dear Viewer, we won't confuse you with things like story arcs that go beyond a single episode."

 

[02ranger]

It doesn't explain why the aliens do what they do (the characters' explanation doesn't make sense), and furthermore (ignoring that point), there ought to be a tonne of ships derelict in that part of space.



I've watched a few when it was aired for the first time here. I can't say I was much impressed, but I fancied a bit of ST (that I hadn't seen before), so I started with watching the most highly recommended episodes. This brought me to the 'Scorpion' two-parter which introduces Seven, at which point I thought there could be some interesting character development there and started at series 4. Most of the episodes there have been OK. This was the first or second stinker I've seen in this series.

Heh, I just read the plot summary.

I'm pretty sure she was already done developing at that point. :biggrin:

 

[poofyhairguy]

They also mentioned that sort of thing in The Inner Light, where Picard is given a lifetime of memories from someone living on a planet who's parent star was dying, and life on the planet was also slowly dying off.

Ronald Moore:
"I've always felt that the experience in "Inner Light" would've been the most profound experience in Picard's life and changed him irrevocably. However, that wasn't our intention when we were creating the episode. We were after a good hour of TV, and the larger implications of how this would really screw somebody up didn't hit home with us until later (that's sometimes a danger in TV – you're so focused on just getting the show produced every week that sometimes you suffer from the "can't see the forest for the trees" syndrome)."

I am willing to give TNG a little pass because at least after Picard's Borg incident they had a "he recovers" episode.

 

[Insomniator]

Voyager had a good concept and loaded it with terrible characters (and actors), resued plot lines, and then tried saving itself by overusing and ruining the Borg -- one of if not the coolest story ST TNG introduced.

Remember the Chakotay and 7of9 epsiode towards the end and the commercials that came with it? It was like a cheesy basic cable teen drama.

The series was for girls -- and I don't think even female trekkies liked the idea behind it.

 

[mikeymikec]

I am willing to give TNG a little pass because at least after Picard's Borg incident they had a "he recovers" episode.

It is repeatedly referenced as well in later episodes.

 

[utahraptor]

I think this was the worst moment of the worst episode of Voyager:


"How did you manage to reintegrate his consciousness?"
"It involved three neural transceivers, two cortical stimulators, and fifty gigaquads of computer memory. I would be happy to take you through the process but it would take at least ten hours to explain it all to you. Needless to say it was a remarkable procedure. I would consider writing a paper about it, if there were a convenient forum in which to publish it."

- B'Elanna Torres and The Doctor

 

[mikeymikec]

I think this was the worst moment of the worst episode of Voyager:


"How did you manage to reintegrate his consciousness?"
"It involved three neural transceivers, two cortical stimulators, and fifty gigaquads of computer memory. I would be happy to take you through the process but it would take at least ten hours to explain it all to you. Needless to say it was a remarkable procedure. I would consider writing a paper about it, if there were a convenient forum in which to publish it."

- B'Elanna Torres and The Doctor

Presumably because you're thinking that they threw a load of technical words into the mix and this is what came out?

It kind of reminds me of a story I once heard that some star trek fan questioned someone to do with ST TOS asking about how the warp drive worked, the response was "very nicely, thank you".

 

[K1052]

I am willing to give TNG a little pass because at least after Picard's Borg incident they had a "he recovers" episode.

Picard also was extensively tortured in Chain of Command, spent about 20 seconds on the consequences after he was released. There are probably another half dozen episodes where he's subjected to stuff that would turn any person into a catatonic wreck or majorly alter their personality.

 

[Skel]

Presumably because you're thinking that they threw a load of technical words into the mix and this is what came out?

It kind of reminds me of a story I once heard that some star trek fan questioned someone to do with ST TOS asking about how the warp drive worked, the response was "very nicely, thank you".

Back in the late 80s I went to a Star Trek con that had James Doohan as the main speaker. A fan asked how the transporter worked. After a long and very interesting (to me at least) explanation on how they filmed it and some of the issues they had, the fan said "No, how does it move you through space". Doohan sighed heavy and said "It's a very complicated process, next question please"

 

[poofyhairguy]

There are probably another half dozen episodes where he's subjected to stuff that would turn any person into a catatonic wreck or majorly alter their personality.

Well yes, if anyone can get through the first season without a little bit of emotional damage I would be shocked.

You are correct though, what we really need is a modern serial Star Trek.

 

[Kadarin]

This was the best episode:

Wrong kind of lesbian

 

[Sonikku]

I met a guy back in the 90s when I worked in comics that had a short lived job with the TNG. He had coined the phrase I still use today, of "Star Trek Syndrome". It's basically the reset button you mention. As he would tell it, you could do whatever you wanted with everyone as long as you put the toys back on the shelf exactly how you found them in the last ten mins of the episode. While I know there have been other shows before ST that did it, I can't think of a more blatant showing of it. How else would one explain Picard being absorbed into the Borg and somehow keeping command of the Federations' flagship?

They presumably tried to take it away from him in a court martial, but then he played lawyer and delivered The Picard smackdown to the prosecution. They had no choice but to give it back to him.

 

[Eug]

Seriously though, if I were to pick from any of the Star Trek series' for a best episode, it'd probably be Mirror, Mirror from the original series.

However, Inner Light from TNG was pretty good too.

I can't think of a Voyager episode that would make my top ten. Worst ten would include that salamander episode from Voyager, and The Omega Glory from TOS, written by Gene Roddenberry.

 

[silverpig]

Seriously though, if I were to pick from any of the Star Trek series' for a best episode, it'd probably be Mirror, Mirror from the original series.

However, Inner Light from TNG was pretty good too.

I can't think of a Voyager episode that would make my top ten. Worst ten would include that salamander episode from Voyager, and The Omega Glory from TOS, written by Gene Roddenberry.

Worst ones for me:

Devil's Due from TNG
The one where Dr. Crusher has that ghost love affair in TNG

A lot of the Bajoran stuff from seasons 1-2 of DS9

The dream one from Voyager (not the one in this thread, the one with the space clown)

 

[ViRGE]

I think this was the worst moment of the worst episode of Voyager:


"How did you manage to reintegrate his consciousness?"
"It involved three neural transceivers, two cortical stimulators, and fifty gigaquads of computer memory. I would be happy to take you through the process but it would take at least ten hours to explain it all to you. Needless to say it was a remarkable procedure. I would consider writing a paper about it, if there were a convenient forum in which to publish it."

- B'Elanna Torres and The Doctor

Unsurprisingly it's a season 1 episode. Starting off slow is a hallmark of Star Trek, but Voyager had an especially bad case.:|

Seriously though, if I were to pick from any of the Star Trek series' for a best episode, it'd probably be Mirror, Mirror from the original series.

However, Inner Light from TNG was pretty good too.

I can't think of a Voyager episode that would make my top ten. Worst ten would include that salamander episode from Voyager, and The Omega Glory from TOS, written by Gene Roddenberry.

IMHO, if you're going to pick Mirror, Mirror, then you need to add In A Mirror Darkly to your list. Enterprise absolutely nailed the Mirror Universe.

 

[mikeymikec]

Worst ones for me:

Devil's Due from TNG

I liked that one

"Impudence is pretending to be Fek'lhr!"

I doubt I ever treated that episode very seriously though; the idea that most of a planet of people falling for "it's the Devil!" seems improbable* I can't think of any actual flaws in the episode though (however it's been a long time since I watched it).

'Nemesis' and 'Retrospect' from Voyager S4 caught my attention the most so far. The former was a bit predictable in places.

* - I doubt that if Jesus appeared out of nowhere, changed water in to wine in public with the event covered by several international news networks, as well as other 'seemingly impossible' tasks, whether you'd suddenly get most witnesses praising him as their messiah even though they weren't Christian in the first place. I imagine it would cause a bit of a stir though

A lot of the Bajoran stuff from seasons 1-2 of DS9

There was a string of Bajorian politics episodes culminating in an attempted coup that I thought wasn't bad (ie. with respect to plot flaws).

 

[mikeymikec]

I met a guy back in the 90s when I worked in comics that had a short lived job with the TNG. He had coined the phrase I still use today, of "Star Trek Syndrome". It's basically the reset button you mention. As he would tell it, you could do whatever you wanted with everyone as long as you put the toys back on the shelf exactly how you found them in the last ten mins of the episode.

I agree that it's a common style for ST episodes (and I agree that it's a poor story-telling style - people must develop if they're going to be interesting, and that development can improve the plots of future episodes).

In a Voyager S4 episode, Torres becomes unstable / potentially suicidal for reasons that ought to have been character developing / permanent, but in later episodes that are directly relevant, it's an event that appears to be forgotten.

While I know there have been other shows before ST that did it, I can't think of a more blatant showing of it. How else would one explain Picard being absorbed into the Borg and somehow keeping command of the Federations' flagship?

I disagree in that I think this is a poor example of what you described.

Furthermore, 'First Contact' (the film that is) has Picard sent as far away from the Borg incursion as possible for the reason you described.

Generally speaking though, it would be a pretty poor plan to discard / demote your people who have the most experience with a particular enemy just because you think there's a chance that they might have been "compromised". LaForge was used as a remote control pawn by the Romulans once, and I think I can come up with an episode for every major character being compromised/captured in some similar way.

I think however it would be a pretty dull episode where Starfleet evaluate Picard's ability after 'The Best of Both Worlds', unless a decent script writer can be found to make a lot of discussion into an interesting episode - perhaps along the lines of 'The Measure of a Man'? That's a very low action episode but the discussion is interesting.

Picard was given the Enterprise because he was considered to be Starfleet's best captain. What would you have done with him instead? Demoting him (either officially or reassigning him to a less important post), sends a negative message to everyone in Starfleet, at least all the go-getters whom you potentially want as leaders, that if you're caught, you may as well commit suicide even if you survive the experience - or to put it less dramatically, your career is over / severely stunted.

 

[Skel]

I agree that it's a common style for ST episodes (and I agree that it's a poor story-telling style - people must develop if they're going to be interesting, and that development can improve the plots of future episodes).

In a Voyager S4 episode, Torres becomes unstable / potentially suicidal for reasons that ought to have been character developing / permanent, but in later episodes that are directly relevant, it's an event that appears to be forgotten.

I disagree in that I think this is a poor example of what you described.

Furthermore, 'First Contact' (the film that is) has Picard sent as far away from the Borg incursion as possible for the reason you described.

Generally speaking though, it would be a pretty poor plan to discard / demote your people who have the most experience with a particular enemy just because you think there's a chance that they might have been "compromised". LaForge was used as a remote control pawn by the Romulans once, and I think I can come up with an episode for every major character being compromised/captured in some similar way.

I think however it would be a pretty dull episode where Starfleet evaluate Picard's ability after 'The Best of Both Worlds', unless a decent script writer can be found to make a lot of discussion into an interesting episode - perhaps along the lines of 'The Measure of a Man'? That's a very low action episode but the discussion is interesting.

Picard was given the Enterprise because he was considered to be Starfleet's best captain. What would you have done with him instead? Demoting him (either officially or reassigning him to a less important post), sends a negative message to everyone in Starfleet, at least all the go-getters whom you potentially want as leaders, that if you're caught, you may as well commit suicide even if you survive the experience - or to put it less dramatically, your career is over / severely stunted.

The way the Federation has always been described to me is much like the Navy. Only much much much bigger and in space. Picard should have been retired or 'promoted' and assigned to a place where they wouldn't have to worry about it. Not on the front lines commanding the flagship of the fleet. If I recall (and it's been a very long time and honestly i didn't care for First Contact... though it is one of the better TNG go fig) he did 'hear' the Borg in the back of his mind. My point was even he knew he was forever changed. The risk of him being in charge of the Enterprise when there are a bunch of people qualified to take the job is so high it's beyond stupid. As for Leforge.. yeah he should have been relieved of duty as well. To answer your overarching question of what that tells everyone in StarFleet? Bad things happen to good people, even in the future.

 

[Jeff7]

The way the Federation has always been described to me is much like the Navy. Only much much much bigger and in space. Picard should have been retired or 'promoted' and assigned to a place where they wouldn't have to worry about it. Not on the front lines commanding the flagship of the fleet. If I recall (and it's been a very long time and honestly i didn't care for First Contact... though it is one of the better TNG go fig) he did 'hear' the Borg in the back of his mind. My point was even he knew he was forever changed. The risk of him being in charge of the Enterprise when there are a bunch of people qualified to take the job is so high it's beyond stupid. As for Leforge.. yeah he should have been relieved of duty as well. To answer your overarching question of what that tells everyone in StarFleet? Bad things happen to good people, even in the future.

For that matter, they shouldn't even be sending upper management down into dangerous situations.

Voyager - The Chute.
The highest member of management, Janeway, goes blindly into a dangerous prison as part of a rescue operation, followed by the Security Department's manager.


(Star Trek is just "The Adventure of Upper and Middle Management. In spaaaace!")


But it's probably a bit tougher to have a cast the audience can get attached to if each away team is nothing but redshirts with a 20% survival rate. Or even if they do survive, you'd likely send down different specialists for each trip. Investigating an ancient technological relic would likely have a different team than a hostile situation, or an interesting geological site.

 

[mikeymikec]

The way the Federation has always been described to me is much like the Navy. Only much much much bigger and in space. Picard should have been retired or 'promoted' and assigned to a place where they wouldn't have to worry about it. Not on the front lines commanding the flagship of the fleet. If I recall (and it's been a very long time and honestly i didn't care for First Contact... though it is one of the better TNG go fig) he did 'hear' the Borg in the back of his mind. My point was even he knew he was forever changed. The risk of him being in charge of the Enterprise when there are a bunch of people qualified to take the job is so high it's beyond stupid. As for Leforge.. yeah he should have been relieved of duty as well. To answer your overarching question of what that tells everyone in StarFleet? Bad things happen to good people, even in the future.

Now go through all the episodes of all the Star Trek series where a crew member was captured, incapacitated, and/or mind-controlled (or something similar) by enemy forces, and relieve them of duty (PS - I would be surprised if you found a regular character that none of these things happened to).

So now that you've sidelined all the go-getters in Starfleet, you now have the more mediocre, play-it-safe crews manning the starships. Your message has been "please don't take any risks, if something bad happens, ever, then we won't be able to trust you". Good plan!

 

[Skel]

Now go through all the episodes of all the Star Trek series where a crew member was captured, incapacitated, and/or mind-controlled (or something similar) by enemy forces, and relieve them of duty (PS - I would be surprised if you found a regular character that none of these things happened to).

So now that you've sidelined all the go-getters in Starfleet, you now have the more mediocre, play-it-safe crews manning the starships. Your message has been "please don't take any risks, if something bad happens, ever, then we won't be able to trust you". Good plan!

I worked in comics so I can argue real world vs a TV show, just so you know. I'm totally OK with this..

I think you're confusing principal actors vs go getters. The ONLY reason senior staff would be taking risks like they do in any of the Star Trek shows is because they need to do something interesting with it's actors. In a more realistic (again, I'm totally OK with debating realistic stuff in a TV show based on a Soap Opera in space.) The red shirts would be the only people put in hazardous situations. The Senior staff would be back on the ship going "I hope that fool don't die". In the Borg stuff, that made sense as the Borg wanted to take the guy who was the most senior officer in the area (and they lucked out in getting the guy who's in command of the flagship). What doesn't make any sense at all is Starfleet going, "You feel OK? You're not lying about being OK are you?" and allowing him to retain command. I do agree that if you go through the entire story, you'd find a completely replaced crew (at least senior staff) because of all the things that happened to them. They really did have the worst luck.