State of the Union 2024

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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,859
15,920
146
You just now figuring out how credit reports work?
I understand credit reports, I just don't understand why a report is even being made on that and framed as relevant to the economy. It's a figure with no meaning, some bastardized mix of 'how much people spend on shit' and 'how underwater everyone is'.
 
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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,235
10,628
136
I understand credit reports, I just don't understand why a report is even being made on that and framed as relevant to the economy. It's a figure with no meaning, some bastardized mix of 'how much people spend on shit' and 'how underwater everyone is'.

The #s from reporting bureaus are probably the best/closest capture of the big picture you can get. It's just that it's susceptible to nuances like what's being described in this thread.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,859
15,920
146
The individual CC companies would know hard #s. But good luck getting it all from every vendor.
Then it's a pointless figure lol, no wonder the govt is so out of touch with the average American if the understanding is that debt statements is just people buying TVs and shit and using cc instead of cash.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
12,971
3,732
136
Yes, I think that part of the article is economically ignorant. The data most certainly does not speak for itself though as crucial context is left out as you mention below. That’s bad journalism.
That was one chart out of 8. We agree nominal CC debt doesn't mean much. My point is that, as a whole, the charts in the article show that the Biden economy is doing fairly well. If you want to nitpick the writer for one misleading chart, or for perhaps trying too hard to appear "fair and balanced," that's okay. IMO that doesn't ruin the credibility of the entire piece.

Otherwise, I'll save my scorn for a lot worse "journalism" out there.


I understand credit reports, I just don't understand why a report is even being made on that and framed as relevant to the economy. It's a figure with no meaning, some bastardized mix of 'how much people spend on shit' and 'how underwater everyone is'.
Although my assumption is that reported aggregate CC debt is heavily based on statement balances reported to credit agencies, the methodology is likely more complex. Analysts know who all the major CC issuers are, and they regularly report their credit portfolios in financial results. The Visa/MC/etc. networks report transactional data so they can somewhat model behaviors from that as well. Disclaimer: I'm not an econometrician.

Total CC debt may be too fuzzy here, but one can look at outstanding auto loans, which have exploded in the past decade. Late payments and delinquencies are still very manageable, but they are trending up.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,859
15,920
146
I mean it's not useless since majority of CC users don't pay off every month. It's just not perfect.
It is if you're making policy off it. It's only partial information so you can only make a partially successful policy off it. I'd rather the govt force the credit agencies to centrally report anonymized debt quantities first, then make policies off that information (both debt carried and spending levels).
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,245
6,634
126
That's pretty rare. I havent' seen it around here in my time. If someone doesn't want to sell their home to an investor, no, the government doesn't come in and claim eminent domain. People sell willingly, but zoning laws then restrict denser housing from being built there.
People sell willingly is a fiction we winners tell ourselves to hide from the fact that many many real estate transactions are based on human misery and the destruction of socially vibrant neighborhoods to be replaced by people living in pod-like isolation chambers They sell because the system does not give a shit about them. And I suppose also you don't see that this is exactly what the system is designed to do. Happy people don't spend their pay checks chasing after this and that balm that promises all manner of gratifications.
 

gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
3,196
2,324
136
State of the union?

On life support.

How do you even begin to counter this ideology? If not Trump in 2024, then what about 2028, 2032, etc? The right is showing no intention of moderating its views and gets more extreme by the year.

If you thought Project 2025 was bad, wait until you see 2029. The modern conservative movement is essentially rejecting America and liberal democracy.

"What can men do against such reckless hate?"

 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,233
31,101
136
Yes. I basically never use cash anymore. I haven’t confirmed this but I assume the data here is statement balances, not revolving debt. Ten years ago I would say my non-bill spending was about 50-50 cash/credit. Now it’s like 95% credit and each month I have a several thousand dollar balance that I pay off in full.
Same here. I keep a little cash but rarely use it so now there isn’t a month Im not carrying CC debt and those totals are higher than 10 years ago
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,401
136
While I am late with this factoid, I’ll present it.
Had to stop at a McDonalds tonight. Quarter pounder with cheese value meal (comes with drink & fries) was $12.40 or $12.48 sort of forgot the change amount.
Middlesex County Massachusetts

Don’t ask how it was I didn’t have that.
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
24,715
5,866
146
es. I basically never use cash anymore. I haven’t confirmed this but I assume the data here is statement balances, not revolving debt. Ten years ago I would say my non-bill spending was about 50-50 cash/credit. Now it’s like 95% credit and each month I have a several thousand dollar balance that I pay off in full.

Even ten years ago I was probably at 95% credit card usage. I think I used cash twice last year.
Once for getting quarters for the hand car wash, and second for giving my newspaper delivery guy a Christmas tip.

I've paid off my CC balances every month for probably 20 years.

I am a "credit card deadbeat" and proud of it, according to the CC companies.

"While the term “deadbeat” generally carries a negative connotation, when it comes to the credit card industry, you should consider it a compliment. Card issuers refer to customers as deadbeats if they pay off their balance in full each month, avoiding interest charges and fees on their accounts."

 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,912
24,239
136
People sell willingly is a fiction we winners tell ourselves to hide from the fact that many many real estate transactions are based on human misery and the destruction of socially vibrant neighborhoods to be replaced by people living in pod-like isolation chambers They sell because the system does not give a shit about them. And I suppose also you don't see that this is exactly what the system is designed to do. Happy people don't spend their pay checks chasing after this and that balm that promises all manner of gratifications.
You are so fucking dumb as always. I've literally sold people's homes that was part of their retirement nest egg and part of the plan. Trust me they were very fucking happy. People get older and want to move on from a more urban life because they prefer boringness culture free living at some retirement community they boughta house in. They're all pretty fucking happy when they cash out though let me tell you.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,245
6,634
126
You are so fucking dumb as always. I've literally sold people's homes that was part of their retirement nest egg and part of the plan. Trust me they were very fucking happy. People get older and want to move on from a more urban life because they prefer boringness culture free living at some retirement community they boughta house in. They're all pretty fucking happy when they cash out though let me tell you.
I am not so fucking dumb that when I read someone saying that many many real estate sales take place for reasons than you have described as not having seen in your own experience, that a rebuttal to my assertion can’t be you don’t see that in your experience. That was already a given.

But even in the happy instances where lucky people bought low in the best growth areas, their decisions to sell may be happy because they are fleeing an area that has become inamicable to their concept of a decent life. I would not want to flatter myself with the thought that a service that helps people gladly flee some sort misery conforms to my idea of free will. That was my point. The economy is driven by emotional needs the system participates in ensuring exist because in a capitalist system money is everything.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,985
32,243
136
I am not so fucking dumb that when I read someone saying that many many real estate sales take place for reasons than you have described as not having seen in your own experience, that a rebuttal to my assertion can’t be you don’t see that in your experience. That was already a given.

But even in the happy instances where lucky people bought low in the best growth areas, their decisions to sell may be happy because they are fleeing an area that has become inamicable to their concept of a decent life. I would not want to flatter myself with the thought that a service that helps people gladly flee some sort misery conforms to my idea of free will. That was my point. The economy is driven by emotional needs the system participates in ensuring exist because in a capitalist system money is everything.
I'm not sure why it is so difficult for you to understand that it isn't moral to prevent everything around you from changing. And I don't want to get into a side discussion about how morality doesn't exist. That isn't the point. You should not have the right to prevent other people from doing things they think will make them happy, whether you think they are making a mistake or not. You bought your land and house. You didn't buy the right to control everything that happens around it. Short of creating a physical health hazzard, people should be able to do what they want with their land.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
25,504
11,885
136
Same here. I keep a little cash but rarely use it so now there isn’t a month Im not carrying CC debt and those totals are higher than 10 years ago
I use CC for everything except for groceries and fast food (not very often). Not sure why I draw the line. I guess I feel that if you can't feed yourself without borrowing, you are in trouble, or something like that.
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,664
12,089
136
I use CC for everything except for groceries and fast food (not very often). Not sure why I draw the line. I guess I feel that if you can't feed yourself without borrowing, you are in trouble, or something like that.
I use my CC for groceries because I get a 6% discount. Hell, I even put my rent on a CC because I get rewards for that (Bilt card - no fees when paying rent). All of them get paid off each cycle.

I might as well get free rewards. I know we're all technically paying for it through higher fees passed onto merchants, but as long as these things exist, I may as well use them.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,401
54,069
136
I'm not sure why it is so difficult for you to understand that it isn't moral to prevent everything around you from changing. And I don't want to get into a side discussion about how morality doesn't exist. That isn't the point. You should not have the right to prevent other people from doing things they think will make them happy, whether you think they are making a mistake or not. You bought your land and house. You didn't buy the right to control everything that happens around it. Short of creating a physical health hazzard, people should be able to do what they want with their land.
Exactly - the YIMBY movement is simply looking to allow people to make their own choices as to where they want to live. Moonbeam wants to ban people from living in houses he personally disapproves of.

It's annoying how constantly deceptive the NIMBY movement is where they constantly talk about how YIMBYs want to force people to live in apartments when the actual movement is just giving people the CHOICE to live in apartments if they want to.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,912
24,239
136
I am not so fucking dumb that when I read someone saying that many many real estate sales take place for reasons than you have described as not having seen in your own experience, that a rebuttal to my assertion can’t be you don’t see that in your experience. That was already a given.

But even in the happy instances where lucky people bought low in the best growth areas, their decisions to sell may be happy because they are fleeing an area that has become inamicable to their concept of a decent life. I would not want to flatter myself with the thought that a service that helps people gladly flee some sort misery conforms to my idea of free will. That was my point. The economy is driven by emotional needs the system participates in ensuring exist because in a capitalist system money is everything.

You are fucking dumb. And you aren't even thinking of renters. Because of NIMBY's like you, renters are pushed out of neighborhoods and areas constantly, because as the value of homes rises, most (not all) landlords are greedy and always want tippity top market value. Some landlords are reasonable with rent when they have great tenants. But sometimes they sell because they need to cash out for any reason, and now those tenants that were paying below market, now are fucked. All because NIMBY"s like you kept the supply low, and prices rose astronimically.

And as we can see from the data posted, housing costs have skyrocketed far beyond wage increases, and require a much larger percentage of income.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,370
43,782
136
People sell willingly is a fiction we winners tell ourselves to hide from the fact that many many real estate transactions are based on human misery and the destruction of socially vibrant neighborhoods to be replaced by people living in pod-like isolation chambers They sell because the system does not give a shit about them. And I suppose also you don't see that this is exactly what the system is designed to do. Happy people don't spend their pay checks chasing after this and that balm that promises all manner of gratifications.

Definitely In the running for the dumbest thing I've heard this year so far.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,245
6,634
126
I'm not sure why it is so difficult for you to understand that it isn't moral to prevent everything around you from changing. And I don't want to get into a side discussion about how morality doesn't exist. That isn't the point. You should not have the right to prevent other people from doing things they think will make them happy, whether you think they are making a mistake or not. You bought your land and house. You didn't buy the right to control everything that happens around it. Short of creating a physical health hazzard, people should be able to do what they want with their land.
Two things, dank……….. I don’t see anything in what I said equating to me wanting to prevent change, nor do I see anything in your post to suggest it would be immoral to do so.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,401
54,069
136
Two things, dank……….. I don’t see anything in what I said equating to me wanting to prevent change, nor do I see anything in your post to suggest it would be immoral to do so.
If you don't want to prevent change then you're ok with eliminating zoning laws that prevent people from building 'pod-like isolation chambers' - correct?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,370
43,782
136
If you don't want to prevent change then you're ok with eliminating zoning laws that prevent people from building 'pod-like isolation chambers' - correct?

Why do I think he's probably describing like a 400sq ft studio apartment as some kind of inhumane torture dungeon.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,401
54,069
136
Why do I think he's probably describing like a 400sq ft studio apartment as some kind of inhumane torture dungeon.
I think a small studio would be an unpleasant place to live. That being said, I would never want to ban someone from living in it and I bet it's a whole hell of a lot nicer than sleeping on the street or in your car, which is the real alternative.
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,664
12,089
136
On the topic of housing, when are the NIMBYs who are allegedly for affordable housing going to sell their own properties at cost they bought at + some inflation adjustment instead of maximizing their sale price so they don't contribute to unaffordable housing?
 
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