Supercharged the E60 M5

[satyajitmenon]

<Mr Sulu Voice> Oh my... </Mr Sulu Voice>

 

[waggy]

for the WIFE!!?

sigh. well hope she enjoys it

 

[skyking]

Very nice. If you were nearby I could make some tasteful stainless shrouds to at least favor cooler air from out in front. Maybe you can find somebody local who would work with what you have. Even if you can't shroud it in, you can do some less obtrusive work to separate the hotter air from exhaust manifold areas.

 

[CraigRT]

Unreal. That thing would pretty much walk any other car out there, as long as it could hookup of course. Supercharging a car with already 500HP is probably not something even I would do. and I do love fast cars (but no money for them)

 

[manimal]

OMG apex that car is so amazing.

I have been shopping for a m5 for a few weeks now.


Is throttle response any different after the SC? How does the smg handle WOT pulls? How does the launch control deal with the extra power?

When I pick up my m5 I will PM you with a bazzilion questions!!!

 

[Apex]

Only 91 octane available here, no 93.

Wife drives fast. Too fast. I've taken this car to the track once (Streets of Willow). It's a fun car, but you definitely feel the weight. The big track is probably a better choice for it than that tight, technical course.

We started the supercharger project a long time ago. Stage I was pretty easy. Stage II (chargecooler, oil cooler, higher boost, etc) had some more fitment issues.

ESS is one of those companies that only does things their way, or not at all. They will only release a kit if it'll fit without any cutting or destruction of stock parts. It has to be completely bolt on/bolt off. This is very different from the philosophy of say, G-Power, which has no problems sawing through stock supports, piping, etc, or grinding chunks off parts for extra clearance.

Deposit on the F10 M5 is only for a lease. This E60 M5, we're keeping long term.

I may end up doing some sort of shroud, but I'm not hopeful. Shrouds only help, minimally, with radiant heat. Radiant heat isn't really what causes the majority of the intake temperature increase.

A long time ago, I've tried using an open element type intake for this vehicle with metal radiant heat shields, rubber seals (pushing against the hood), and a smooth intake piping. It still made substantially less power than the stock closed system:

The E60/E63 M5/M6 is a really strange car in that it's a great high speed vehicle. It doesn't launch particularly well, but in the 80-140mph range, it does very very well considering its power to weight ratio and relatively large frontal area.

The throttle response is very close to stock. From what I've seen, there are no particular hesitations or lumps as you may find in many aftermarket forced induction applications. The power follows the stock curves, there's just more power everywhere.

SMG is fine with WOT pulls.

I haven't had a chance to try launch control yet, but I have the ESS programming on the SMG controller, which changes launch control from the US spec (1800 rpm launch) to the European spec (4000 rpm launch), as well as tightens up the shifting.

Feel free to ask when you get your M5. Better learn from someone elses mistakes, than pay for your own.

 

[manimal]

Only 91 octane available here, no 93.

Wife drives fast. Too fast. I've taken this car to the track once (Streets of Willow). It's a fun car, but you definitely feel the weight. The big track is probably a better choice for it than that tight, technical course.

We started the supercharger project a long time ago. Stage I was pretty easy. Stage II (chargecooler, oil cooler, higher boost, etc) had some more fitment issues.

ESS is one of those companies that only does things their way, or not at all. They will only release a kit if it'll fit without any cutting or destruction of stock parts. It has to be completely bolt on/bolt off. This is very different from the philosophy of say, G-Power, which has no problems sawing through stock supports, piping, etc, or grinding chunks off parts for extra clearance.

Deposit on the F10 M5 is only for a lease. This E60 M5, we're keeping long term.

I may end up doing some sort of shroud, but I'm not hopeful. Shrouds only help, minimally, with radiant heat. Radiant heat isn't really what causes the majority of the intake temperature increase.

A long time ago, I've tried using an open element type intake for this vehicle with metal radiant heat shields, rubber seals (pushing against the hood), and a smooth intake piping. It still made substantially less power than the stock closed system:

The E60/E63 M5/M6 is a really strange car in that it's a great high speed vehicle. It doesn't launch particularly well, but in the 80-140mph range, it does very very well considering its power to weight ratio and relatively large frontal area.

The throttle response is very close to stock. From what I've seen, there are no particular hesitations or lumps as you may find in many aftermarket forced induction applications. The power follows the stock curves, there's just more power everywhere.

SMG is fine with WOT pulls.

I haven't had a chance to try launch control yet, but I have the ESS programming on the SMG controller, which changes launch control from the US spec (1800 rpm launch) to the European spec (4000 rpm launch), as well as tightens up the shifting.

Feel free to ask when you get your M5. Better learn from someone elses mistakes, than pay for your own.

Your the man!

What did stage 1 run you? I had one that I test drove with a dinan chip and it seemed a lot different then the two other stockers I drove. Sadly that car was sold before I could make a decision.

What do you use to scan it? I have a snap on solus and some of its bmw support sucks..

 

[Safeway]

This E60 M5, we're keeping long term.

You plan to keep a temperamental, and now supercharged, V10 ... long term?

I agree with you, heat is an issue. Heat is an issue for the stock M5, too. How long do you expect to keep the M5? How much have you set aside for maintenance, both regular and catastrophic? I know that, with all the excess heat, wiring harnesses are particularly susceptible to failure. Rerouting a wiring harness in that vehicle will take an absurd amount of money, or, if you do it yourself, time. Additionally, I figure you're seeing 8 to 12 MPG?

I ask because I am planning on selling my S5 and buying an M5. I am unsure whether to buy a used E60 M5 or hold out for a used F10 M5. The looks don't matter as much. Every M5 I see on the road, old or new, still reeks of awesomeness. The V10 does, too. I can see the blown V8 in the F10 resulting in easier long-term maintenance and cost of ownership. Buying an E60 will save, at a minimum, $30,000, probably closer to $40,000. One major problem with the V10, however, would quickly eat up that savings.

Your opinion?

 

[manimal]

You plan to keep a temperamental, and now supercharged, V10 ... long term?

I agree with you, heat is an issue. Heat is an issue for the stock M5, too. How long do you expect to keep the M5? How much have you set aside for maintenance, both regular and catastrophic? I know that, with all the excess heat, wiring harnesses are particularly susceptible to failure. Rerouting a wiring harness in that vehicle will take an absurd amount of money, or, if you do it yourself, time. Additionally, I figure you're seeing 8 to 12 MPG?

I ask because I am planning on selling my S5 and buying an M5. I am unsure whether to buy a used E60 M5 or hold out for a used F10 M5. The looks don't matter as much. Every M5 I see on the road, old or new, still reeks of awesomeness. The V10 does, too. I can see the blown V8 in the F10 resulting in easier long-term maintenance and cost of ownership. Buying an E60 will save, at a minimum, $30,000, probably closer to $40,000. One major problem with the V10, however, would quickly eat up that savings.

Your opinion?

Well I decided to go the used E60 route because of the lower cost of entry. If you stayed relatively stock you could also get an extended warranty if you are worried long term.
I of course would plan to spend 5-10k a year so even a catastrophic SMG failure wont surprise me. I would of course do all of my own maintenance so that would make things cheaper for me.

Most of the E60s I have seen are RIGHT out of warranty and have all been dealer maintained. One even already had the SMG replaced. Costs have been surprisingly low too.

I for some reason want the V10 over the newer engines.

 

[Safeway]

Well I decided to go the used E60 route because of the lower cost of entry. If you stayed relatively stock you could also get an extended warranty if you are worried long term.
I of course would plan to spend 5-10k a year so even a catastrophic SMG failure wont surprise me. I would of course do all of my own maintenance so that would make things cheaper for me.

Most of the E60s I have seen are RIGHT out of warranty and have all been dealer maintained. One even already had the SMG replaced. Costs have been surprisingly low too.

I for some reason want the V10 over the newer engines.

That's my point. The F10 ditches the death-prone SMG. The V10 is an expensive work of art.

If you figure $5,000 to $10,000 a year for the E60, how does that relate to the F10? I am planning on, mechanicals permitting, driving the M5 to 200,000 miles and beyond. I want this to be a long-term, babied vehicle. At the same time, however, if the F10 would work out to be cheaper over the next 10 years, I will wait and buy a used F10.

If you look at eBay, the highest mileage E60 M5 is a 2006 with 87k miles. That's nothing. Major repairs pop up north of 100k.

On m5board.com, there was discussion re: an E60 M5 with 140,000 miles for $20,000. They said, "Do not buy." Others have said that you can expect to get 150,000 miles out of an E60 M5 as long as you are willing to spend $2,000/year on maintenance. But north of 150,000 miles, you should expect to see $10,000 and $20,000 engine failures, etc.

 

[Apex]

Your the man!

What did stage 1 run you? I had one that I test drove with a dinan chip and it seemed a lot different then the two other stockers I drove. Sadly that car was sold before I could make a decision.

What do you use to scan it? I have a snap on solus and some of its bmw support sucks..

Stage 1 is $12k, Stage 2 is $16k. Expensive, but not too bad considering the pricing on a G-Power setup or Dinan stroker.

Don't worry too much about finding a car with Dinan software or whatever. Main thing is going for a car in good condition. IMHO, it's also nice to get an 08+ model if not too much more expensive.

Haven't really needed to scan, though basic code clearing and stuff I have some cheap $100 tool lying around. I've met up with ESS a few times and they've handled anything specific I wanted done.

You plan to keep a temperamental, and now supercharged, V10 ... long term?

I agree with you, heat is an issue. Heat is an issue for the stock M5, too. How long do you expect to keep the M5? How much have you set aside for maintenance, both regular and catastrophic? I know that, with all the excess heat, wiring harnesses are particularly susceptible to failure. Rerouting a wiring harness in that vehicle will take an absurd amount of money, or, if you do it yourself, time. Additionally, I figure you're seeing 8 to 12 MPG?

I ask because I am planning on selling my S5 and buying an M5. I am unsure whether to buy a used E60 M5 or hold out for a used F10 M5. The looks don't matter as much. Every M5 I see on the road, old or new, still reeks of awesomeness. The V10 does, too. I can see the blown V8 in the F10 resulting in easier long-term maintenance and cost of ownership. Buying an E60 will save, at a minimum, $30,000, probably closer to $40,000. One major problem with the V10, however, would quickly eat up that savings.

Your opinion?

I think it really depends on what you're looking for. I haven't had anything really bad happen with the M5, but it always could. I do have a good mechanic I trust locally, which helps.

I honestly think it comes down to where your preferences lie. If you have the buffer, buy what you like, and enjoy it! I'm not a huge believer in the "daily driver" (beater that you hate driving for 6 days a week, so that you can spend a few minutes with the car you really like).

I generally see 10-12 MPG on it, mainly because it's used for very short drives and up/down hills. I saw less than 6 MPG at the track. I think the most I've seen for an extended period is 18 MPG on a long, relatively fast drive. At 70mph or so, you can see 21-23 MPG.

Don't get me wrong. I love turbocharged vehicles, and I think the F10 will be a monster. Heck, my daily driver is 600hp & twin turbo'd and comes in at almost a full ton less weight. However, there's something pretty special about this v10 TO ME. Not everyone feels this way.

 

[Safeway]

...

My intention is to keep the M5 stock and used it as my exclusive daily driver. Still, it won't rack up the miles as my commute is single-digits, round-trip. I just want it to last for at least 10 years or 200,000 miles. I estimate that, in 10 years time, I will put less than 100,000 miles on the vehicle. If maintenance costs associated with running an E60 would raise the cost of ownership to F10 levels, then I will go the F10 route.

 

[manimal]

My intention is to keep the M5 stock and used it as my exclusive daily driver. Still, it won't rack up the miles as my commute is single-digits, round-trip. I just want it to last for at least 10 years or 200,000 miles. I estimate that, in 10 years time, I will put less than 100,000 miles on the vehicle. If maintenance costs associated with running an E60 would raise the cost of ownership to F10 levels, then I will go the F10 route.

Wow 10 years. Thats commitment. I cant commit to a car for more than a couple years these days.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Congrats to all of you who work so hard and can afford such cool hobbies.

 

[soccerballtux]

You plan to keep a temperamental, and now supercharged, V10 ... long term?

I agree with you, heat is an issue. Heat is an issue for the stock M5, too. How long do you expect to keep the M5? How much have you set aside for maintenance, both regular and catastrophic? I know that, with all the excess heat, wiring harnesses are particularly susceptible to failure. Rerouting a wiring harness in that vehicle will take an absurd amount of money, or, if you do it yourself, time. Additionally, I figure you're seeing 8 to 12 MPG?

I ask because I am planning on selling my S5 and buying an M5. I am unsure whether to buy a used E60 M5 or hold out for a used F10 M5. The looks don't matter as much. Every M5 I see on the road, old or new, still reeks of awesomeness. The V10 does, too. I can see the blown V8 in the F10 resulting in easier long-term maintenance and cost of ownership. Buying an E60 will save, at a minimum, $30,000, probably closer to $40,000. One major problem with the V10, however, would quickly eat up that savings.

Your opinion?

how long can you really keep a turbo'd car? I walked away with the impression that if I ran 260+hp through my scion tC I was going to blow the engine before 50k. That's when I bought a motorcycle instead.

 

[Safeway]

how long can you really keep a turbo'd car? I walked away with the impression that if I ran 260+hp through my scion tC I was going to blow the engine before 50k. That's when I bought a motorcycle instead.

There is a big difference between a Scion engine and ... other engines. All 335i are blown. All 535i, too. Look at all the forced Ford Mustangs that rack up the miles.

 

[Safeway]

Wow 10 years. Thats commitment. I cant commit to a car for more than a couple years these days.

It depends on the car. If I wanted to buy a 335i or an A4, I'd have to upgrade. An M5 is different. It is still badass 10 years later.

There are two things that really date modern cars: efficiency and technology.

 

[IcePickFreak]

Badass car!

Props to the wife for taming that beast too, my gf is dangerous enough with 130hp.

 

[Zenmervolt]

how long can you really keep a turbo'd car? I walked away with the impression that if I ran 260+hp through my scion tC I was going to blow the engine before 50k. That's when I bought a motorcycle instead.

There's also a big difference in how a kit is designed. There's no reason why a 2.4 litre engine shouldn't be able to push 260 hp reliably if the setup is done right. Of course, doing it "right" involves things like new pistons and forged internals and lowered compression ratios and whatnot. And you're going to be pushing somewhere between 14 and 16 PSI to get there. That's a LOT, especially for the stock 9.6:1 or 9.8:1 compression ratio.

If you're just slapping a turbo on and not cracking the block to do a major retrofit on the internals, then yes, you're going to have problems trying to get 260+ hp out of the stock tC engine. If you're willing to open it up and start getting into proper internals, however, you'd be fine. Hell, the 2.3 litre engine in my Volvo manages about 240 hp on 10 PSI stock, but it's also running only an 8.5:1 compression ratio (and, again, there are forged bits on the inside and the cylinder walls are reinforced).

The "official" TRD supercharger kit for the Scion tC ran 6 PSI for 200 hp total. Not much different than the 6.5 PSI that Apex is safely running here. Percentage wise you're getting about the same gain, it's just that 25% of 160 hp is only 40 hp, while 25% of 500 hp is just a bit more than 40 hp.

Turbos get painted as "unreliable" because people seem to think they're magic. Just because you can get 125 hp from a low-pressure turbo on an M5 with perfect safety doesn't mean that you can gain that same amount on a 150 hp econobox. The reason that a 260+ hp tC will be thrashed in 50,000 miles is because you're trying to get more than a 60% power increase. That same level of increase for an M5 would be trying to get a 700 hp M5; of course at that level you're going to have issues.

Bottom line: If you do it right and don't get crazy, you're fine. The problem comes when people try to get too much without the proper supporting modifications.

ZV

 

[alfa147x]

Love the stock look! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[skyking]

Shrouds only help, minimally, with radiant heat.

I took a look at the pics again, I think you could make something to get almost 100% cool air into the main filter. That secondary is more problematic.

 

[Apex]

I took a look at the pics again, I think you could make something to get almost 100% cool air into the main filter. That secondary is more problematic.

ESS has a new intake design being finished up. I'll get that put in when they do.

The M3 has much better filter placement, with a wide enough opening for the filter to be fitted down at the bottom.

The E60 M5 actually has 2 small openings to the stock airbox instead of just the usual 1 big one. This is part of what's causing the placement issues.



Side note: Couldn't do the dyno yesterday because of rain. The plan is to reschedule for tomorrow (wed), but it may rain as well.

 

[RichUK]

That car is going to be epic. Are you going to post any videos?

 

[Apex]

She's strapped down tight and ready for a flogging!

Only about a week and a half to go to the airstrip drag event.

 

[satyajitmenon]

She's strapped down tight and ready for a flogging!

Only about a week and a half to go to the airstrip drag event.

What's the deal with the ESS decals? i.e. did you put it on cos you like it? Or is ESS giving you some special deal because of it?