The AMD Mantle Thread

[frozentundra123456]

So you're not going to make up your mind until 2 years are past? :|

Interesting to see you brought my latest prediction true however. Even when BF4 shows fantastic gains you'll still be refusing to believe it until...I dunno what you have to see tbh. 2 years of sustained gains? 6 months of being disMantled is all it'll take and Nvidia will be on the way out anyway.

Also, I wasn't projecting anything, that previous post was 100% fact.

Seems like you have made up your mind before any game using it is even playable.

 

[psoomah]

Again, a lot of us remember the days of DOS dying and developers crying the Windows abstraction would kill gaming because it was so slow and inefficient. Well, we all know how that played out...

Hat trick analogy if ever I heard one!!

 

[bystander36]

Hat trick analogy if ever I heard one!!

Do you remember that time very well? I remember most games were written for DOS, and some could be played within Windows, but still written for DOS. It took a while before things migrated to Windows.

 

[3DVagabond]

You have to say it's a real eye-opener when a dev says that 20% more performance is "not unreasonable", using something that has basically always been there but hardly ever used.

We know Mantle will give huge gains in CPU bottlenecked scenarios, but to read about the compute gains, which are basically free...that's in GPU bottlenecked scenarios. I mentioned compute shader lighting before and we might see that in BF4, or some kind of post process AA. I think they talk about other gains in the deep dive from BSN? 5% from the new memory model was one thing mentioned I believe.

There is just so much here, so many new things that devs can take advantage of. It's unbelievable that it's taken so long to realise it.

Assuming they do stuff like Tressfx and compute lighting and it runs a lot faster on AMD hardware, what's the bets review sites test w/o those features turned on?

 

[psoomah]

You have to say it's a real eye-opener when a dev says that 20% more performance is "not unreasonable", using something that has basically always been there but hardly ever used.

We know Mantle will give huge gains in CPU bottlenecked scenarios, but to read about the compute gains, which are basically free...that's in GPU bottlenecked scenarios. I mentioned compute shader lighting before and we might see that in BF4, or some kind of post process AA. I think they talk about other gains in the deep dive from BSN? 5% from the new memory model was one thing mentioned I believe.

There is just so much here, so many new things that devs can take advantage of. It's unbelievable that it's taken so long to realise it.

There are slide decks from the GPU13 and APU13 presentations outlining some of the elements from which Mantle performance gains will be derived. I'll list some of them out for the sake of contextual clarity.

GPU13 - DICE slide deck

-Very low overhead rendering, loading & streaming 
-Perfect parallel rendering - utilize all 8 CPU cores 
-Avoid bottlenecking the GPU and the system 
-Highly optimized GPU usage 
-Full access to graphics hardware capabilities 
-Lots of low-level optimizations made possible 

APU13 - DICE slide deck:

Control

-Thin low-level abstraction to expose how hardware works 
-App explicit memory management 
-Resource CPU access tied to device context 
-Resources are globally accessible  
-App explicit resource state

Control App responsibility 

-Tell when render target will be used as a texture ‒ And many more resource state transitions 
-Don’t destroy resources that GPU is using ‒ Keep track with fences or frames Manual dynamic resource renaming ‒ No DISCARD for driver resource renaming 
-Resource memory tiling 
-Powerful validation layer will help!

Control Explicit control enables 

-App high-level decisions & optimizations ‒ Has full scene information
-Easier to optimize performance & memory 
-Flexible & efficient memory management ‒ Linear frame allocators ‒ Memory pools ‒ Pinned memory 
-Reduced development time ‒ For advanced game engines & apps ‒ Easier to get to target performance & robustness

Control Explicit control enables 
-Transient resources ‒ Alias render targets within frame ‒ Major memory savings ‒ No need to pre-allocate everything 
-Light-weight driver ‒ Easier to develop & maintain ‒ Reduced CPU draw call overhead

CPU performance

CPU performance Descriptor sets 

-Table with resource references to bind to graphics or compute pipeline
-Image Memory Sampler Link 
-Replaces traditional resource stage binding ‒ Major performance & flexibility advantage ‒ Closer to how the hardware works 
-Example 1: Single simple dynamic descriptor set ‒ Bind everything you need for a single draw call ‒ Close to DX/GL model but share between stages Dynamic descriptor set VertexBuffer (VS) Texture0 (VS+PS) Constants (VS) Texture1 (PS) 
-App managed - lots of strategies possible! ‒ Tiny vs huge sets ‒ Single vs multiple ‒ Static vs semi-static vs dynamic Texture2 (PS) Sampler0 (VS+PS)

CPU performance Command buffers 

-Issue pipelined graphics & compute commands into a command buffer ‒ Bind graphics state, descriptor sets, pipeline ‒ Draw calls ‒ Render targets ‒ Clears ‒Memory transfers ‒ NOT: resource mapping 
-Fully independent objects ‒ Create multiple every frame ‒ Or pre-build up front and reuse

CPU performance Parallel dispatch with Mantle

-CPU 0 Game Game Game
-CPU 1 Render Render Render
-CPU 2 Render Render Render
-CPU 3 Render Render Render
-CPU 4 Render Render Render 
-App can go fully wide with its rendering – minimal latency  
-Close to linear scaling with CPU cores  
-No driver threads – no overhead – no contention  
- Frostbite’s approach on all consoles – and on PC with Mantle!

GPU performance

GPU performance optimizations 

-Thanks to improved CPU performance – CPU will rarely be a bottleneck for the GPU ‒ CPU could help GPU more: ‒ Less brute force rendering ‒ Improve culling 
-Resource states ‒ Gives driver a lot more knowledge & flexibility ‒ Apps can avoid expensive/redundant transitions, such as surface decompression  -Expose existing GPU functionality 
-Shader pipeline object – driver optimizations ‒ Can optimize with pipeline state knowledge ‒ Can optimize across all shader stages ‒ Quad & Rect-lists ‒ HW-specific MSAA & depth data access ‒ Programmable sample patterns ‒ -And more..

GPU performance Queues 

-Modern GPUs are heterogeneous machines with multiple engines Graphics ‒ Graphics pipeline ‒ Compute pipeline(s) ‒ DMA transfer ‒ Video encode/decode ‒ More… 
-Mantle exposes queues for the engines + synchronization primitives -Compute DMA ... Queues GPU
-Async DMA transfers ‒ Copy resources in parallel with graphics or compute Copy DMA Graphics Render Other render Use copy
- Multiple compute kernels collaborating ‒ Copy resources in parallel with graphics or compute ‒ Can be faster than über-kernel ‒ Example: Compute geometry backend & compute rasterizer 
-Async compute together with graphics ‒ ALU heavy compute work at the same time as memory/ROP bound work to utilize idle units Compute 0 Compute 1 Graphics Compute Geometry Compute Rasterizer Ordinary Rendering
-Compute as frontend for graphics pipeline ‒ Compute runs asynchronously ahead and prepares& optimizes geometry for graphics pipeline Process0 Draw1 Draw2

Programmability

Explicit Multi-GPU 

-Explicit control of GPU queues and synchronization, finally! ‒ Implement your own Alternate-Frame-Rendering ‒ Or something more exotic.. 
-Use case: Workstation rendering with 4-8 GPUs ‒ Super high-quality rendering & simulation ‒ Load balance graphics & compute job graphs across GPUs ‒ 20-40 TFlops in a single machine! 
-Use case: Low-latency rendering ‒ Important for VR and competitive games ‒ Latency optimized GPU job graph scheduling ‒ VR: Simultaneously drive 2 GPUs (1 per eye

New mechanisms 

-Command buffer predication & flow control ‒ GPU affecting/skipping submitted commands ‒ Go beyond DrawIndirect / DispatchIndirect ‒ Advanced variable workloads ‒ Advanced culling optimizations 
-Write occlusion query results into GPU buffer ‒ No CPU roundtrip needed ‒ Can drive predicated rendering ‒ Or use results directly in shaders (lens flares)

Bindless resources 

-Mantle supports bindless resources ‒ Shaders can select resources to use instead of static binding from CPU ‒ Extension of the descriptor set support  -Examples ‒ Performance optimizations – less data to update ‒ Logic & data structures that live fully on the GPU ‒ Scene culling & rendering ‒ Material representations 
-Key component that will open up a lot of opportunities! ‒ Deferred shading ‒ Raytracing

There's also a Nixxus slide deck here with numerous additional examples.

Operating on the logical assumption each of the above listed Mantle advantages will result in some performance gain and that the above list is by no means a complete delineation of the performance gains Mantle can enable, totaling up the sum of the individual performance gains would logically result in a very substantial figure indeed. As the order of magnitude increase in draw calls alone can enable a 20% performance increase, a 'guesstimate' of a 40% performance increase overall would not be amiss.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Assuming they do stuff like Tressfx and compute lighting and it runs a lot faster on AMD hardware, what's the bets review sites test w/o those features turned on?

I'd be curious how the reviewers(s) would justify not enabled said features, or would they simply pretend they didn't exist? What if the eye candy is enabled by default?

Here's an interesting question. Seeing as Mantle looks like it will bring better visuals and performance to the low-ish end stuff and give it the ability to run games at rez/settings previously unusable, does that mean AMD is cutting off its nose to spite its face? Put another way, will they cannibalize their higher end hardware because more people will decide they don't need a $300 card anymore? Or will we see developers use Mantle to push visuals farther and take full advantage of the fastest GPUs, and the low end stuff will be as per usual, having to lower settings to get playable frame rates.

It's a quandary to me, and makes me wonder if Nvidia wants no part of coming up with their own thin API for the reasons I give above.

 

[bystander36]

I'd be curious how the reviewers(s) would justify not enabled said features, or would they simply pretend they didn't exist? What if the eye candy is enabled by default?

Here's an interesting question. Seeing as Mantle looks like it will bring better visuals and performance to the low-ish end stuff and give it the ability to run games at rez/settings previously unusable, does that mean AMD is cutting off its nose to spite its face? Put another way, will they cannibalize their higher end hardware because more people will decide they don't need a $300 card anymore? Or will we see developers use Mantle to push visuals farther and take full advantage of the fastest GPUs, and the low end stuff will be as per usual, having to lower settings to get playable frame rates.

It's a quandary to me, and makes me wonder if Nvidia wants no part of coming up with their own thin API for the reasons I give above.

They almost always benchmark games not using PhysX, why would it be different with new AMD features? They don't include those settings, typically, as it gives a bias towards one company. They prefer apples to apples comparisons.

That said, they certainly will review the new features when first presented, just as a way to show case new tech, but beyond that, he's right, they won't likely benchmark due to brand bias.

 

[3DVagabond]

I'd be curious how the reviewers(s) would justify not enabled said features, or would they simply pretend they didn't exist? What if the eye candy is enabled by default?

Here's an interesting question. Seeing as Mantle looks like it will bring better visuals and performance to the low-ish end stuff and give it the ability to run games at rez/settings previously unusable, does that mean AMD is cutting off its nose to spite its face? Put another way, will they cannibalize their higher end hardware because more people will decide they don't need a $300 card anymore? Or will we see developers use Mantle to push visuals farther and take full advantage of the fastest GPUs, and the low end stuff will be as per usual, having to lower settings to get playable frame rates.

It's a quandary to me, and makes me wonder if Nvidia wants no part of coming up with their own thin API for the reasons I give above.

Although we are going to see IQ advancement in games due to Mantle, the future is APU's (iGPU). This is a tool that moves in that direction. I'm sure AMD would rather sell $300 APU's than $300 video cards.

Make no mistake though, we are going to see some games that without Mantle are going to be very difficult to render. They start doing 100K draw calls per frame and we're going to see slideshows on non GCN hardware. I'm not sure how that's going to be handled.

 

[blastingcap]

Although we are going to see IQ advancement in games due to Mantle, the future is APU's (iGPU). This is a tool that moves in that direction. I'm sure AMD would rather sell $300 APU's than $300 video cards.

Make no mistake though, we are going to see some games that without Mantle are going to be very difficult to render. They start doing 100K draw calls per frame and we're going to see slideshows on non GCN hardware. I'm not sure how that's going to be handled.

Not anytime soon, if ever. Many people do not have the latest hardware. Many are on NV or pre-7000 series GPUs. Unless AMD pulls a PhysX you will not see games that do 100k draw calls per frame. I'm sorry but that is simply horrible business and nobody sane is going to do that without a fat check from AMD, PhysX-style, because the vast majority of the market isn't Mantle-compatible right now.

I am hoping that more programs will be able to take advantage of iGPUs/APUs though, maybe make that do TressFX or something while the discrete card handles the main duties.

 

[psoomah]

Here's an interesting question. Seeing as Mantle looks like it will bring better visuals and performance to the low-ish end stuff and give it the ability to run games at rez/settings previously unusable, does that mean AMD is cutting off its nose to spite its face? Put another way, will they cannibalize their higher end hardware because more people will decide they don't need a $300 card anymore? Or will we see developers use Mantle to push visuals farther and take full advantage of the fastest GPUs, and the low end stuff will be as per usual, having to lower settings to get playable frame rates.

It's a quandary to me, and makes me wonder if Nvidia wants no part of coming up with their own thin API for the reasons I give above.

AMD has the very considerable Intel/Nvidia buying demographic to draw from. AIB buyers are used to AMD and Nvidia continually trading cost/performance places, operating at relative parity. Intel has a much longer and more entrenched reputation for superior performance on the CPU side, so most of the people that will stick with an Intel processor for the time being will be far more open to switching to an AMD GPU to go with it for the Mantle advantage. Over time people with Intel processors not all that into gaming will hear buying even a cheap low end AMD AIB can enable an amazing gaming experience. Once released Kaveri will start to nibble at Intel's market share, but once Mantle's performance is verified GCN AIBs are going to be doing a great deal more than 'nibbling' at Nvidia's market share.

 

[3DVagabond]

Not anytime soon, if ever. Many people do not have the latest hardware. Many are on NV or pre-7000 series GPUs. Unless AMD pulls a PhysX you will not see games that do 100k draw calls per frame. I'm sorry but that is simply horrible business and nobody sane is going to do that without a fat check from AMD, PhysX-style, because the vast majority of the market isn't Mantle-compatible right now.

I am hoping that more programs will be able to take advantage of iGPUs/APUs though, maybe make that do TressFX or something while the discrete card handles the main duties.

They're talking about striving towards even higher draw calls, 300k by 2015 and 1mil by 2018. Oxide had a demo with 100k draw calls running @ 60fps. we are going to see games using this. It likely won't be BF4 (too commercial), but I wouldn't be surprised to see Star Citizen pushing those kinds of numbers.

Time will tell.

 

[AnandThenMan]

They almost always benchmark games not using PhysX, why would it be different with new AMD features? They don't include those settings, typically, as it gives a bias towards one company. They prefer apples to apples comparisons.

That said, they certainly will review the new features when first presented, just as a way to show case new tech, but beyond that, he's right, they won't likely benchmark due to brand bias.

Are you saying Mantle enabled games won't be benched at all? Same game, just different API I see no reason not to test both, especially considering Mantle is going to be packaged in with the driver set.

The PhysX example doesn't work because there is no fall back rendering path for GPU enabled PhysX games, the visuals are either there or nothing. With Mantle you have DX as the fallback when you don't have AMD hardware (GCN in this case).

 

[bystander36]

Are you saying Mantle enabled games won't be benched at all? Same game, just different API I see no reason not to test both, especially considering Mantle is going to be packaged in with the driver set.

The PhysX example doesn't work because there is no fall back rendering path for GPU enabled PhysX games, the visuals are either there or nothing. With Mantle you have DX as the fallback when you don't have AMD hardware (GCN in this case).

I didn't say they wouldn't be tested at all, just it won't be done often. And by the sound of most Dev's, the Mantle path may have different IQ settings.

 

[Obsoleet]

Do you remember that time very well? I remember most games were written for DOS, and some could be played within Windows, but still written for DOS. It took a while before things migrated to Windows.

I remember. I was gaming on computers since the Commodore128.
And DOS games were always faster/ran better with less hardware. The only reason they died off, was because support did. MS had great power.
I was sad to see DOS go. Otherwise, we'd be using lower level platform today.

Such as: SteamOS; Mantle.
You could call it a comeback.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Here's an interesting question. Seeing as Mantle looks like it will bring better visuals and performance to the low-ish end stuff and give it the ability to run games at rez/settings previously unusable, does that mean AMD is cutting off its nose to spite its face? Put another way, will they cannibalize their higher end hardware because more people will decide they don't need a $300 card anymore? Or will we see developers use Mantle to push visuals farther and take full advantage of the fastest GPUs, and the low end stuff will be as per usual, having to lower settings to get playable frame rates.

The writing is on the wall. AMD is fully aware that discrete GPU's are going to basically cease to exist for regular consumers at some point (I'd say within 10 years). They are making a push to get in on the ground floor right now.

 

[tential]

I'd be curious how the reviewers(s) would justify not enabled said features, or would they simply pretend they didn't exist? What if the eye candy is enabled by default?

Here's an interesting question. Seeing as Mantle looks like it will bring better visuals and performance to the low-ish end stuff and give it the ability to run games at rez/settings previously unusable, does that mean AMD is cutting off its nose to spite its face? Put another way, will they cannibalize their higher end hardware because more people will decide they don't need a $300 card anymore? Or will we see developers use Mantle to push visuals farther and take full advantage of the fastest GPUs, and the low end stuff will be as per usual, having to lower settings to get playable frame rates.

It's a quandary to me, and makes me wonder if Nvidia wants no part of coming up with their own thin API for the reasons I give above.

Not at all.
First off, Mantle isn't available on EVERY game. If you want to play non Mantle games, you still need to look at who has better perf. So you'll still need a decent GPU. But, the Mantle games, you'll be able to enable resolutions/settings that you may have needed a much better GPU. So you gain a + in that.

However, I think many people are looking at the GPU in the traditional sense. However, you're forgetting about the APU. Right now, we're looking at "Steam Boxes" that play games. However, it will cost quite a bit to get a decent Steam Box. But, imagine you could get an APU and if most games were Mantle enabled? All of a sudden, your cheap APU which probably could only 720p game before at medium settings, can play 1080p everything enabled. And it can fit in a nice platform that is easy to upgrade/sell to the mainstream consumer (fit in a smaller xbox/ps looking package).
I think this may be more of a push to make APUs a more viable option to budget minded/entry level PC gamers.

My sister was using my PC hooked up to my 70 inch TV, and said "Wow, I can basically do whatever I want with this. I can watch HDTV, Browse the Internet, or play games. Whatever." This is the same niche the Xbone is trying to get. PCs generally aren't able to do EVERYTHING because the cost of a CPU+GPU combination to play at a decent level for 8 years is hard to obtain. But with an APU, with Mantle, you have cut the cost, and boosted performance. I hope it works out for AMD. I think the APU does have its niche for PC/Mobile. But well, since the average consumer doesn't need graphics, I don't know how long it will last.

 

[ocre]

With all this doom and gloom for everyone but AMD, i just want to know one thing. If mantle is so easy to code, so easy to convert console code to run on PC..... if this is remotely close to true, then why is there still no BF4 mantle patch? The game has launched on the consoles. The game has launched already and running perfect on PC in DX. You see, it doesnt add up. Mantle obviously is more work and not simply taking console code and running it on a PC. Or it would be here already. If you cannot see the issue with this then I dont know what to tell you.

Mantle is a very big deal to AMD. They are trying to push it and push it hard. Yet BF4 launch came and went, without mantle. Lucky this is a game that has a huge MP aspect that people play for many months but not every game is like that. As a matter of fact, most games are not like this. And if AMD could not implement their huge game changing Mantle to spotlight their huge architecture with a grade A title at launch, what makes anyone think that any other game would be different. Why is so many in this thread so sure of so many things? Wishful thinking? Praying and hoping that AMD will rise above and crush Nvidia and Intel based on nothing more than blind faith?

Look, BF4 is their Mantle debut. Their big Mantle showcase and its completely MIA. This is a great way to start off your huge game changing API, wouldnt you think. Well, i dont think so. I think this says a lot in itself. It says that Mantle is not easier for devs, that it is more work. If it wasnt, it would be here before a complete DX 11 version of a game comes out.
You can try but this is a very hard reality to squirm out of. It says a lot in itself. Now if you months late on the most important Mantle title ever........ I guess you can fill in the rest. Because, yes! BF4 is the most important Mantle title because it is the very one they chose to showcase their new API on. And of course, pay no attention to the fact that its nowhere to be seen. This makes everything about Mantle questionable. If your launching Mantle versions several months after everyone else beats the game, would it really have that huge of a significance? Lucky for AMD, BF4 is a shooter whos multiplayer mode will be popular for awhile. But this is the exception not the rule. And if your this late on a game as important and as big as BF4, the Mantle highlight? Games of less importance will get much less money thrown at them. And pretty much all games out there are less important.

I just think way to many people have driven off to fantasy land here. Obvious what your wishes are but there are many many many cold hard facts right in front of you that for some reason no one seems to be bringing up. So quick to swear doom and gloom when the very the weapon at hand is misfiring right out of the gate. There is no way anyone should be sure of anything right now. Except the obvious: Mantle is extra work for developers, games, and AMD. If it was not we wouldnt be waiting on the BF4 matle patch that single handedly puts intel and nvidia out of business. You know, the one that is so much like console code that porting games over is so simple yet the DX11 PC version will be out ages before Mantle ever shows face.

Now, i am sure mantle is capable of better performance. As any close to the metal code could be. But everything else is marketing hype plus buckets of wild speculation

/rant end

 

[AnandThenMan]

So over the top I don't even know what to say. I certainly don't understand the anger over something that is looking to finally break the stagnation of DX.

With all this doom and gloom for everyone but AMD, i just want to know one thing. If mantle is so easy to code, so easy to convert console code to run on PC..... if this is remotely close to true, then why is there still no BF4 mantle patch? The game has launched on the consoles. The game has launched already and running perfect on PC in DX. You see, it doesnt add up. Mantle obviously is more work and not simply taking console code and running it on a PC. Or it would be here already. If you cannot see the issue with this then I dont know what to tell you.

Mantle is a very big deal to AMD. They are trying to push it and push it hard. Yet BF4 launch came and went, without mantle. Lucky this is a game that has a huge MP aspect that people play for many months but not every game is like that. As a matter of fact, most games are not like this. And if AMD could not implement their huge game changing Mantle to spotlight their huge architecture with a grade A title at launch, what makes anyone think that any other game would be different. Why is so many in this thread so sure of so many things? Wishful thinking? Praying and hoping that AMD will rise above and crush Nvidia and Intel based on nothing more than blind faith?

Look, BF4 is their Mantle debut. Their big Mantle showcase and its completely MIA. This is a great way to start off your huge game changing API, wouldnt you think. Well, i dont think so. I think this says a lot in itself. It says that Mantle is not easier for devs, that it is more work. If it wasnt, it would be here before a complete DX 11 version of a game comes out.
You can try but this is a very hard reality to squirm out of. It says a lot in itself. Now if you months late on the most important Mantle title ever........ I guess you can fill in the rest. Because, yes! BF4 is the most important Mantle title because it is the very one they chose to showcase their new API on. And of course, pay no attention to the fact that its nowhere to be seen. This makes everything about Mantle questionable. If your launching Mantle versions several months after everyone else beats the game, would it really have that huge of a significance? Lucky for AMD, BF4 is a shooter whos multiplayer mode will be popular for awhile. But this is the exception not the rule. And if your this late on a game as important and as big as BF4, the Mantle highlight? Games of less importance will get much less money thrown at them. And pretty much all games out there are less important.

I just think way to many people have driven off to fantasy land here. Obvious what your wishes are but there are many many many cold hard facts right in front of you that for some reason no one seems to be bringing up. So quick to swear doom and gloom when the very the weapon at hand is misfiring right out of the gate. There is no way anyone should be sure of anything right now. Except the obvious: Mantle is extra work for developers, games, and AMD. If it was not we wouldnt be waiting on the BF4 matle patch that single handedly puts intel and nvidia out of business. You know, the one that is so much like console code that porting games over is so simple yet the DX11 PC version will be out ages before Mantle ever shows face.

Now, i am sure mantle is capable of better performance. As any close to the metal code could be. But everything else is marketing hype plus buckets of wild speculation

/rant end

 

[3DVagabond]

With all this doom and gloom for everyone but AMD, i just want to know one thing. If mantle is so easy to code, so easy to convert console code to run on PC..... if this is remotely close to true, then why is there still no BF4 mantle patch? The game has launched on the consoles. The game has launched already and running perfect on PC in DX. You see, it doesnt add up. Mantle obviously is more work and not simply taking console code and running it on a PC. Or it would be here already. If you cannot see the issue with this then I dont know what to tell you.

Mantle is a very big deal to AMD. They are trying to push it and push it hard. Yet BF4 launch came and went, without mantle. Lucky this is a game that has a huge MP aspect that people play for many months but not every game is like that. As a matter of fact, most games are not like this. And if AMD could not implement their huge game changing Mantle to spotlight their huge architecture with a grade A title at launch, what makes anyone think that any other game would be different. Why is so many in this thread so sure of so many things? Wishful thinking? Praying and hoping that AMD will rise above and crush Nvidia and Intel based on nothing more than blind faith?

Look, BF4 is their Mantle debut. Their big Mantle showcase and its completely MIA. This is a great way to start off your huge game changing API, wouldnt you think. Well, i dont think so. I think this says a lot in itself. It says that Mantle is not easier for devs, that it is more work. If it wasnt, it would be here before a complete DX 11 version of a game comes out.
You can try but this is a very hard reality to squirm out of. It says a lot in itself. Now if you months late on the most important Mantle title ever........ I guess you can fill in the rest. Because, yes! BF4 is the most important Mantle title because it is the very one they chose to showcase their new API on. And of course, pay no attention to the fact that its nowhere to be seen. This makes everything about Mantle questionable. If your launching Mantle versions several months after everyone else beats the game, would it really have that huge of a significance? Lucky for AMD, BF4 is a shooter whos multiplayer mode will be popular for awhile. But this is the exception not the rule. And if your this late on a game as important and as big as BF4, the Mantle highlight? Games of less importance will get much less money thrown at them. And pretty much all games out there are less important.

I just think way to many people have driven off to fantasy land here. Obvious what your wishes are but there are many many many cold hard facts right in front of you that for some reason no one seems to be bringing up. So quick to swear doom and gloom when the very the weapon at hand is misfiring right out of the gate. There is no way anyone should be sure of anything right now. Except the obvious: Mantle is extra work for developers, games, and AMD. If it was not we wouldnt be waiting on the BF4 matle patch that single handedly puts intel and nvidia out of business. You know, the one that is so much like console code that porting games over is so simple yet the DX11 PC version will be out ages before Mantle ever shows face.

Now, i am sure mantle is capable of better performance. As any close to the metal code could be. But everything else is marketing hype plus buckets of wild speculation

/rant end

Funny how you wouls accuse Mantle fans of claiming to know so much without proof and then you would launch into 5 paragraphs about how much you know about mantle. I'm sure you don't see any irony though.

 

[3DVagabond]

With all this doom and gloom for everyone but AMD, i just want to know one thing. If mantle is so easy to code, so easy to convert console code to run on PC..... if this is remotely close to true, then why is there still no BF4 mantle patch? The game has launched on the consoles. The game has launched already and running perfect on PC in DX. You see, it doesnt add up. Mantle obviously is more work and not simply taking console code and running it on a PC. Or it would be here already. If you cannot see the issue with this then I dont know what to tell you.

Mantle is a very big deal to AMD. They are trying to push it and push it hard. Yet BF4 launch came and went, without mantle. Lucky this is a game that has a huge MP aspect that people play for many months but not every game is like that. As a matter of fact, most games are not like this. And if AMD could not implement their huge game changing Mantle to spotlight their huge architecture with a grade A title at launch, what makes anyone think that any other game would be different. Why is so many in this thread so sure of so many things? Wishful thinking? Praying and hoping that AMD will rise above and crush Nvidia and Intel based on nothing more than blind faith?

Look, BF4 is their Mantle debut. Their big Mantle showcase and its completely MIA. This is a great way to start off your huge game changing API, wouldnt you think. Well, i dont think so. I think this says a lot in itself. It says that Mantle is not easier for devs, that it is more work. If it wasnt, it would be here before a complete DX 11 version of a game comes out.
You can try but this is a very hard reality to squirm out of. It says a lot in itself. Now if you months late on the most important Mantle title ever........ I guess you can fill in the rest. Because, yes! BF4 is the most important Mantle title because it is the very one they chose to showcase their new API on. And of course, pay no attention to the fact that its nowhere to be seen. This makes everything about Mantle questionable. If your launching Mantle versions several months after everyone else beats the game, would it really have that huge of a significance? Lucky for AMD, BF4 is a shooter whos multiplayer mode will be popular for awhile. But this is the exception not the rule. And if your this late on a game as important and as big as BF4, the Mantle highlight? Games of less importance will get much less money thrown at them. And pretty much all games out there are less important.

I just think way to many people have driven off to fantasy land here. Obvious what your wishes are but there are many many many cold hard facts right in front of you that for some reason no one seems to be bringing up. So quick to swear doom and gloom when the very the weapon at hand is misfiring right out of the gate. There is no way anyone should be sure of anything right now. Except the obvious: Mantle is extra work for developers, games, and AMD. If it was not we wouldnt be waiting on the BF4 matle patch that single handedly puts intel and nvidia out of business. You know, the one that is so much like console code that porting games over is so simple yet the DX11 PC version will be out ages before Mantle ever shows face.

Now, i am sure mantle is capable of better performance. As any close to the metal code could be. But everything else is marketing hype plus buckets of wild speculation

/rant end

Funny how you would accuse Mantle fans of claiming to know so much without proof and then you would launch into 5 paragraphs about how much you know about mantle. I'm sure you don't see any irony though.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Getting Mantle up and running from conception to the first game that uses it, yes this is a lot of work, years worth. But that is not the same as using Mantle going forward. And no matter what WE think about Mantle, the most compelling evidence is what the devs are saying, and how many have jumped on board.

Mantle has gained broad support because game developers are frustrated with the state of DirectX, and how it limits what they can do. If the speed at which Mantle aware games come out fails to meet your expectations that is fine. But I really don't know what "marketing hype" you're talking about, pretty much everything I've heard and read about Mantle has been from game developers, AMD has said pretty much nothing outside of their presentation/marketing slides.

Do you think AMD is bribing everyone involved and it's all smoke and mirrors?

 

[desprado]

So over the top I don't even know what to say. I certainly don't understand the anger over something that is looking to finally break the stagnation of DX.

how it will break Dx can u explain.It is not using its own OS it will be still using Ms windows which means they still have to use DX as main api.

 

[blastingcap]

how it will break Dx can u explain.It is not using its own OS it will be still using Ms windows which means they still have to use DX as main api.

Dude. Mantle is an API available on more than Windows. Already there are plans to have it available in Linux/SteamOS.

 

[AnandThenMan]

how it will break Dx can u explain.It is not using its own OS it will be still using Ms windows which means they still have to use DX as main api.

I'm curious, do you think OpenGL games on Windows have to go through DirectX?

 

[3DVagabond]

how it will break Dx can u explain.It is not using its own OS it will be still using Ms windows which means they still have to use DX as main api.

He never said break DX. He said break the stagnation of DX. Not the same thing.