The AMD Mantle Thread

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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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People should try play the games compared to consoles in 720p with medium to low settings. Plus the option of dynamic downscaling. Not even including the reduced feature sets of consoles. In terms of BF4, there is absolutely no console benefit. Rather a penalty.

Else my IGP can also compare to my GTX680 if I can freely pick settings, features and resolutions. Hell, even the HTPC i5 661 might show to be a monster.
 

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
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Talking about flux capacitors reminds me of future time-tables and back on topic:

How will the market react to Mantle in the near term and long term?

Definitely has peaked my curiosity!

Depends on Mantle's performance. If Mantle's a screamer, the sight of an Nvidia 780TI will make women scream in horror and faint dead away and strong men fall to the ground weeping piteously.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
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Nice :thumbsup:

I wonder if AMD used the draw call limit against their own driver. And OpenGL is another weak point for AMDs drivers.

It keep looking like Mantle is a hotfix for their own limitations rather than API. And a desire to stagnante progress. Aka no need to evolve beyond GCN.

Except it's running on a 7970.
 

Spjut

Senior member
Apr 9, 2011
931
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106
People should try play the games compared to consoles in 720p with medium to low settings. Plus the option of dynamic downscaling. Not even including the reduced feature sets of consoles. In terms of BF4, there is absolutely no console benefit. Rather a penalty.

Else my IGP can also compare to my GTX680 if I can freely pick settings, features and resolutions. Hell, even the HTPC i5 661 might show to be a monster.

The console benefit for BF4, is that the PC version wouldn't even start even on a Geforce 7950 GX2 or x1950XTX crossfire

I found some twitters from repi that I've been referring to now and then, some may find them interesting
https://twitter.com/repi/status/278211875269902337
https://twitter.com/repi/status/154828634706808832
https://twitter.com/ZedCull/status/271309510709215232
https://twitter.com/repi/status/387579980260970496
 

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
416
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It keep looking like Mantle is a hotfix for their own limitations rather than API. And a desire to stagnante progress. Aka no need to evolve beyond GCN.

Couldn't agree more, it does indeed look like Nvidia and DX is about to take an arrow to the knee.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
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I present 3.5 million draw calls per second in Open GL...with video and detailed information:
http://www.openglsuperbible.com/2013/10/16/the-road-to-one-million-draws/

It looks to me that OpenGL is makeing a joke of Mantle now...

This is a great feature added to OpenGL, and hopefully DX will copy this at some point. But this is different than the reduction in draw call overhead they are talking about in mantle. This is a single call to the API to tell the GPU to do work on a buffer of known size( this comes with lots of it's own problems and workarounds). Mantle will be able to do this and won't have to rely on the API to create a function to do it. If you wanted to you could create your own function on mantle that does the same thing you could. Better yet you could tailor what you want to do to your graphics engine. While mantle also reduces the API overhead from the actual draw calls on the CPU.
 

desprado

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2013
1,645
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The console benefit for BF4, is that the PC version wouldn't even start even on a Geforce 7950 GX2 or x1950XTX crossfire

I found some twitters from repi that I've been referring to now and then, some may find them interesting
https://twitter.com/repi/status/278211875269902337
https://twitter.com/repi/status/154828634706808832
https://twitter.com/ZedCull/status/271309510709215232
https://twitter.com/repi/status/387579980260970496

Plz dont Bs statement.Everyone knows that it wont start because it require Dx10 or 11.These cards dont support dx10 or dx11 if Bf4 had support dx9 they would run much better on PC rather than ps3 or xbox 360
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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Except it's running on a 7970.

When compared to DirectX. But again, AMD still lacks Command List and falsely advertice DirectX version.

Obviously OpenGL can offer everything AMD claims Mantle does in terms of draw call performance. But OpenGL runs better on nVidia
 
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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
The console benefit for BF4, is that the PC version wouldn't even start even on a Geforce 7950 GX2 or x1950XTX crossfire

Thats purely artificial due to the DX version demand on the PC. And another reason why you cant crosscompare.
 

desprado

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2013
1,645
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It's obviously that console games improve vastly over their lifespan. This generation of consoles has started close to PC quality and if it weren't for Mantle they would overtake PC's in image quality soon.

Console lifespan is more not due to api.It is more because it is an fixed hardware.Every year or less there new hardware technology is coming to PC so where as console is fixed and developers get mature and learn it architecture .
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
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There's nothing magical about it for sure, it's just doing what the hardware was always capable of. Go watch a youtube vid of Gears of War 3 or Last of Us and ask yourself if an x1800 could run at that performance on directx.

Now imagine what games on Mantle could look like. There will be some learning to do but the quality difference is going to be staggering very early on. I think a lot of people just don't realise what is about to happen.


You mean running in lower resolution, at lower FPS, with fewer and lesser shadowmaps, lesser lightning, leser textures comapred to a PC version ect?

Even if you "code to the metal"...you cannot escape the 512 MB shared memory in a Xbox360.
Compare that to a 4 GB PC system with a 512 MB X1800...and you will find out reality isn't as you percieve.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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Couldn't agree more, it does indeed look like Nvidia and DX is about to take an arrow to the knee.

An illusionary arrow fired by the bitboys? :biggrin:

Mantle is still 100% hype, no numbers. Still waiting for that BF4 patch too.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,287
2,371
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When compared to DirectX. But again, AMD still lacks Command List and falsely advertice DirectX version.


Command List is an optional feature of DX11 (unfortunately), there is no false advertising. Would be nice if AMD would support it though. Like Mantle partially IHV support is suboptimal on PC for developers.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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Command List is an optional feature of DX11 (unfortunately), there is no false advertising. Would be nice if AMD would support it though. Like Mantle partially IHV support is suboptimal on PC for developers.

290/290X is sold as DX11.2 Featurelist only shows 11.1 in DirectX Caps Viewer.

I wonder if the PS4 actually supports Command List in its driver. This is from Project CARS:

“The bottlenecks are mainly in command list building – we now have this split-up of up to four cores in parallel. There are still some bottlenecks to work out with memory flushing to garlic, even after changing to LCUE, the memory copying is still significant.”
 
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Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
1,469
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obviously it supports it, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned a bottleneck in using it
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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obviously it supports it, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned a bottleneck in using it

The bottleneck again in the PS4 is the CPU. API didnt magicaly fix that. And thats essentially what Mantle targets.

“It’s been challenging splitting the renderer further across threads in an even more fine-grained manner – even splitting already-small tasks into 2-3ms chunks. The single-core speed is quite slow compared to a high-end PC though so splitting across cores is essential.”
 

Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
1,469
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PS4 uses a 15w CPU bro. Are you really comparing it to the 4770 and 8350 or whatever that Oxide was running on? If so you are really stretching and I don't know how I'm supposed to respond. What are you trying to say?
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
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PS4 uses a 15w CPU bro. Are you really comparing it to the 4770 and 8350 or whatever that Oxide was running on? If so you are really stretching and I don't know how I'm supposed to respond. What are you trying to say?

That there is no magical performance...and that a lowrange CPU with an IGP(both consoles) dosn't hold a candle to a gamer PC performance wise....no matter the API.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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PS4 uses a 15w CPU bro. Are you really comparing it to the 4770 and 8350 or whatever that Oxide was running on? If so you are really stretching and I don't know how I'm supposed to respond. What are you trying to say?

Its 4 core/threads, just for the renderer. No magic anywhere. Besides getting the multithreading to work.
 

Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
1,469
21
81
I'm still lost. I don't understand how this relates to Mantle. Are you guys off-topic again?

Or are you trying to prove using that quote about porting a PC engine to PS4 that you can't optimize code on any platform (both PS4 and consoles in general, and also PC) and then using that as a basis to discredit Mantle's supposed efficiency gains vs DirectX (which is architecturally different than the PS4's API) in a roundabout way? Even though that quote talks about splitting the engine into fine-grained threads to run on two 15w CPUs taped together, the act of which would qualify as "magic" performance in comparison to the 90w+ CPUs the engine normally runs on? Again, sorry for being dumb.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
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benefits of " coding to the metal " :

" You just cannot compare consoles to PC directly. Consoles could do at least 2x what a comparable PC can due to the fixed platform and low-level access to hardware."

-Oleg Shishkovstov ( 4A - Metro developer )
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-inside-metro-last-light

So that is why Metro on consoles have subpar I.Q compared to the PC edition?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-tech-interview-metro-2033?page=4
Digital Foundry: Does PC hardware offer up any additional bonuses in Metro 2033 aside from higher frame-rates and resolutions?
Oles Shishkovstov: Yes and no. When you have more performance on the table, you can either do nothing as you say, and as most direct console ports do, or you add the features. Because our platforms got equal attention, we took the second route.
Naturally most of the features are graphics related, but not all. The internal PhysX tick-rate was doubled on PC resulting in more precise collision detection and joint behavior. We "render" almost twice the number of sounds (all with wave-tracing) compared to consoles. That's just a few examples, so that you can see that not only graphics gets a boost. On the graphics side, here's a partial list:

  • Most of the textures are 2048^2 (consoles use 1024^2).
  • The shadow-map resolution is up to 9.43 Mpix.
  • The shadow filtering is much, much better.
  • The parallax mapping is enabled on all surfaces, some with occlusion-mapping (optional).
  • We've utilised a lot of "true" volumetric stuff, which is very important in dusty environments.
  • From DX10 upwards we use correct "local motion blur", sometimes called "object blur".
  • The light-material response is nearly "physically-correct" on the PC on higher quality presets.
  • The ambient occlusion is greatly improved (especially on higher-quality presets).
  • Sub-surface scattering makes a lot of difference on human faces, hands, etc.
  • The geometric detail is somewhat better, because of different LOD selection, not even counting DX11 tessellation.
  • We are considering enabling global illumination (as an option) which really enhances the lighting model. However, that comes with some performance hit, because of literally tens of thousands of secondary light sources.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-metro-last-light-face-off

Same story...less features in order to make the game run.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
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I'm still lost. I don't understand how this relates to Mantle. Are you guys off-topic again?

Not all posts not prasing "mantle" as the second comming is off-topic, sorry to burst you bubble.
We are debating some of the key features being touted by mantle:
Draw calls
API performance

This thread is about mantle yes, but mantle dosn't excist in a void.
If you are expecting a mantle thread to be only prasing mantle and not asking questions or pointing out obvious flawed assumptions, you should make a:
"The praise mantle thread - NO critique allowed!"
 

Spjut

Senior member
Apr 9, 2011
931
160
106
So that is why Metro on consoles have subpar I.Q compared to the PC edition?

Same story...less features in order to make the game run.

While you're at it, why don't you take note of the system requirements for the PC versions of Metro 2033 and Last Light, and compare them to the console specs?

But both 2033 and last light still support DX9, so if you have the opportunity, I'd like if you could try running those games on the 7950 GTX or x1950xtx, so we can compare them to the console versions

But it's sad seeing how easily you dismiss statements from actual programmers working in the business.
 
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