You do realize how freaking slow that battle was? There was so much time dilation (the EVE servers slows down time to deal with the insane strain) and the framerate was laughable.
Its pretty bottlenecked still. Mantle might solve that, though needs better servers too obviously.
Not for the server side of things...which is CPU land...it's not a GPU limitation, it's a CPU...not tied to the graphics FYI.
Is guesswork now the "tool" to promote mantle?
It's not the server side that is the issue, it's the game client. You can be in a major city with 100+ people with no issues at all, but when you in a raid where you have only 25 people actively tacking part in combat, the client has to process a ton of data.
Back in Vanilla 40 man raids where working fine, even on worse hardware (9 years ago). But back then people had about 5000 HP and were pulling only a few thousand dps (damage per second). Today people have more abilities, more heals, more damage over time skills, more raid wide heals (don't actually think there were any raids wide heals back in vanilla) and they pull around 300-500k dps. The numbers that your client has to parse have gone increased by a factor of 100, and the number of parses had probably also increased even though there are less people in raids today.
Also, the issue doesn't really appear in LFR and Flex 25, just heroic (due to people pushing higher numbers).
It's purely a CPU limitation on the user client, not the server client.
The time was diluted yes...but the FPS were fine...look again...you seem to think time dilution = low FPS...and that is false...FPS are NOT linkedto timedilution.
No where were there graphics/GPU issues...the bootleneck were pure serverside :biggrin:
You are talking before WoW got multitreaded right?
Dude were you high or something while writing thisCustomers do. Includes me.
"Percieved" might not be the correct term here.
:|
You lack understanding what driver development is like. DX and OGL drivers are hacks, mediocre hacks, driver developer has no access to game source code, they guess, and guess some more, hopefully they guess correct and it works,the back-and-forth clusterpick communication, it's an extremely inefficient way to optimize games which are heavily impacted by each day of delay a released game does not work.
It boggles the mind why people would be defending this trainwreck. Let the failtrain crash already. Mantle is coming! With all it's glory and all it's powah.
I don't care anymore, no more time for this bleh, I'm jogging (faster pace), reading book (human race get off your knees), baking holiday pastry, even more exercising downstairs in basement while listening to the alex jones radio show on an old nokia cellphone via DD-WRT flashed and modified Linksys WRT320N router with DIY external antenna with 3 meter H1000A extension cable ...:awe:
Right Now: morning, recovering data from a friends half-broken HDD, listening to bob marley - get up,stand up; drinking warm camomiles tea with raw lemon juice with beyond tangy tangerine 2.0, scanning the HDD with chkdsk for bad sectors, oh and I just turned on that himalayan salt crystal lamp to clean my air in the room and a nice anti-electrosmog effect ^_^
There is no way I'm going to care about mantle at all until like 3rd of january or something. What the heck were they thinking, better not release it now, it can only make me mad
... oh looks like the wmp playlist switched to ACDC - For Those About To Rock :whiste:
Then what does that video have anything to do with what was shown on the mantle video? Nothing other than they are both is space with ships
Becasue here there are thousands of objects flying around way to showcase to pwer of dx!! Seriously though stop trolling.I run ARMA3 @ 1600x1200, max settings excpet draw distance that I set around ~7 km..and I don't drop under 30 FPS while gaming
Why do you insist on talking false about games you have never tried?
This is me, having fun...recording WHILE i play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkHQlId8GfI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUb2qvg7CbWkPLE4wc9ULT4g
Show me where ARMA3 is limited by drawcalls in that video?
No. The WoW multithread support is terrible right now. It can't even scale past 4 cores, and even with 4 cores, the CPU utilization is bad.
Becasue here there are thousands of objects flying around way to showcase to pwer of dx!! Seriously though stop trolling.
Which Dev are u talking about?Where are those Dev which asked for called low level API?These all Dev are AMD evolved partners and other than that there are no dev that announced that they will be start adopting mantle.
These all are PR and Marketing Slides which are made AMD and its partners.No actual result or demo but only PR talking which is AMD style.
'It's funny,' says AMD's worldwide developer relations manager of its GPU division, Richard Huddy. 'We often have at least ten times as much horsepower as an Xbox 360 or a PS3 in a high-end graphics card, yet it's very clear that the games don't look ten times as good. To a significant extent, that's because, one way or another, for good reasons and bad - mostly good, DirectX is getting in the way.' Huddy says that one of the most common requests he gets from game developers is: 'Make the API go away.'
U realize AMD has a deal with DICE.So ofcourse they going many sweat thing they can
Marketing slides? I'll believe it when I see it..
While there's no doubt that the DirectX API has limitations that should be addressed, that "marketing slide" makes it appear much worse than it really is.
Look at BF4. On PC, you get far superior frame rate, graphics and overall experience compared to the PS4 and Xbox One. The PS4 and Xbox one cannot even do 1080p with scaled back visual fidelity, and they still regularly fall far below 60 FPS in large multiplayer battles despite having higher draw call capacity and supposedly greater efficiency.
Hahaha no point in arguing with you a madman and a troll. you arma vid sucked as hell, no objects around to see IF ther is fps dips in lots of objects case. It is you who is failing the point. Eve graphics were lame, lots of ships but no individual light source gun ammo travelling across the scene UNLIKE mantle demo.I am failing to see your argument, please be more specific?
You are mad that the EvE video has more ships than the Mantle tech demo, is that it?
Why is it that this particular thread has attracted quite a few new accounts, all arguing in favor of Mantle's marketing slide greatness?
Just something I've noticed.
And I pose a question: If Mantle is so great, why now at the final hour of when it's BF4 target release have we heard NOTHING about it. 2 man months? Hmm... Perhaps not.
Why is it that this particular thread has attracted quite a few new accounts, all arguing in favor of Mantle's marketing slide greatness?
Just something I've noticed.
And I pose a question: If Mantle is so great, why now at the final hour of when it's BF4 target release have we heard NOTHING about it. 2 man months? Hmm... Perhaps not.
Maybe you should focus on the content of their posts. I wouldn't want to stay on a forum where the validity of posts are determined by how long I've been on the forum.
New is all relative as 2008 to me is recent when others have been here since 1999.
You probably haven't heard anything about it because the game has been a mess just running on DirectX. They are pushing money making DLC back to get it right so I doubt something like Mantle is the focus even if it's a completely different group of devs.
I don't understand why some of you are fighting/resisting Mantle, if Mantle lives up to expectations, it'll move the industry forward, you'll get a better experience out of games, maybe you'll start seeing new types of games that you've never seen before, etc...
If it fails, then Direct3D will still be there, OpenGL will still be there, so for the "non believers" Mantle living up to expectations can only bring good things, if it fails you'll lose absolutely nothing, so I don't understand why you guys are resisting this, it has the makings of something very special.
Why can't mantle do that? Being able to perform a ridiculous amount of draw calls will allow them to put more objects on the screen. Since they can't add random crap that doesn't exist for nvidia hardware they would logically just push the draw distance much further to use up that extra CPU power. The additional GPU performance from mantle could push the lod distance further out. That is really the only thing they can do with the added performance in an fps game that doesn't really need more draw calls.Nothing made by man is perfect, but what are these horrible LOD and draw distance issues you're talking about?
I've played the single player campaign several times, plus I've dabbled in the multiplayer as well, and I've never noticed draw distance issues.
Is there pop in? Yes, any engine that streams data (like all modern gaming engines do) is going to have some level of pop in. But it's not very noticeable in my opinion.
If you have really bad pop in, then it's probably because you don't have enough VRAM and system memory. Textures and objects are cached in the VRAM for quick deployment when needed. But if you don't have enough VRAM, it will have to be stored in the main memory which will take longer to load. Or if you don't have enough system memory, then it will have to load from the HDD or SSD which is even slower.
On a 2GB card, you will get notably worse pop in than on a card that has 3 or 4GB. On my 4GB GTX 770s, I've noticed BF4 routinely uses over 2GB..
Mantle can't do that, because draw distance is affected by hardware as well; plus as I mentioned earlier, data streaming is a function of the engine so there will ALWAYS be some level of pop in. A well designed native DX11 engine will hide it well though, and BF4 seems to do that provided you have the hardware.
If you have a 1GB video card and only 4GB of memory however, then you're going to have really bad object and texture pop in, and no API is going to be able to help you.
But it does have significant downsides, in terms of compatibility. The difference between Mantle and DirectX/OpenGL is actually much deeper than its just another API. Mantle's entire design goal is to be fast to run by representing the hardware, pushing hardware limitations into the software. DirectX is actually about 3D models and worlds and how they are put together, you can run it in software on the CPU and it will work just fine. OpenGL equally is about putting together 3D worlds. These abstractions based on the essence of 3D graphics last a lot longer as a concept, because these abstractions aren't about just layering away from hardware they are about making 3D worlds and rendering them with rasterization.
Mantle would not only introduce a completely different concept into this world but do so tied to a single manufacturer and model of card. It throws away decades of careful abstraction to allow hardware/software changes for the future in favour of performance in the short term, only to become a throw away API that when architecture and hardware changes causes changes in the future. I don't doubt the performance benefits might be significant, but its not a good trend for yet another API of any type to be introduced, its certainly not good for an API of this type to be introduced, its the sort of API only aimed at experts.
Just as an aside the problem with Arma 3 is that its single threaded. DirectX calls do take up a significant part of the games thread but it also manages to offload to extra threads (6 in all) during the render process. Its mostly dominated by its simulation updates, its that which in multiplayer seems to grow to a high amount and make the game CPU limited. The rendering process pretty much always achieves about 85 fps on its own and at all times, its just the simulation that seems to get out of hand and I am hoping with my profiles BIS can work out why. Its just an old engine with new spit and polish on the top but its not designed for many core CPUs as a game at all, which considering the complexity of the game is a real problem.
BF4 - the issue I have had with the game are bugs in the gameplay. But graphically it runs really well 110-170 fps for me in 64 player games. Its actually one of the best running games I have ever owned.
I don't believe it is for the short term. It sounds to me like DX needs an overhaul. That overhaul might be mantle or it will be the push needed. If mantle fails and doesn't cause a fundamental change in how DX works. Then I will be sad.
But it does have significant downsides, in terms of compatibility. The difference between Mantle and DirectX/OpenGL is actually much deeper than its just another API. Mantle's entire design goal is to be fast to run by representing the hardware, pushing hardware limitations into the software. DirectX is actually about 3D models and worlds and how they are put together, you can run it in software on the CPU and it will work just fine. OpenGL equally is about putting together 3D worlds. These abstractions based on the essence of 3D graphics last a lot longer as a concept, because these abstractions aren't about just layering away from hardware they are about making 3D worlds and rendering them with rasterization.
Mantle would not only introduce a completely different concept into this world but do so tied to a single manufacturer and model of card. It throws away decades of careful abstraction to allow hardware/software changes for the future in favour of performance in the short term, only to become a throw away API that when architecture and hardware changes causes changes in the future. I don't doubt the performance benefits might be significant, but its not a good trend for yet another API of any type to be introduced, its certainly not good for an API of this type to be introduced, its the sort of API only aimed at experts.
Just as an aside the problem with Arma 3 is that its single threaded. DirectX calls do take up a significant part of the games thread but it also manages to offload to extra threads (6 in all) during the render process. Its mostly dominated by its simulation updates, its that which in multiplayer seems to grow to a high amount and make the game CPU limited. The rendering process pretty much always achieves about 85 fps on its own and at all times, its just the simulation that seems to get out of hand and I am hoping with my profiles BIS can work out why. Its just an old engine with new spit and polish on the top but its not designed for many core CPUs as a game at all, which considering the complexity of the game is a real problem.
BF4 - the issue I have had with the game are bugs in the gameplay. But graphically it runs really well 110-170 fps for me in 64 player games. Its actually one of the best running games I have ever owned.