The AMD Mantle Thread

[krumme]

By AMD, who else...

So AMD is lying about how they use their ressources? - look my prior post.

What is the argument?

 

[krumme]

Microsoft has had an iron grip on PC gaming for how many years now? They've grown fat and lazy, with no incentive to do anything different from what they've been doing.

Mantle now gives them that incentive, as it's a genuine threat to their monopoly on PC gaming.

How is MS earning money on dx monopoly?

 

[Arkadrel]

How is MS earning money on dx monopoly?

by it being one of the very few reason to keep upgradeing windows.
Basically their sales of windows wouldnt be as good, if they didnt force you to buy a new OS from them, to get newer versions of DirectX.

 

[3DVagabond]

How is MS earning money on dx monopoly?

Selling Windows to gamers.

 

[krumme]

You are assuming a single API, capable of being compatible with every card made for the past 10 years, can easily be improved.

It would be easy, relatively speaking, to make an API work well on a single architecture. Making one work well for many different architectures is another thing.

Agree. The thought that MS can suddenly improve DX is nonsense. They can tune it, and they have for years. DX is improving with each version. There is nothing wrong with DX given the circumstances, - meaning full backwards compatability and the huge advantages it gives. Who says DX is not a fantastic piece of engineering given that context?

I think the basic problem is, who is going to pay for the DX development? - Is it MS themselves??? -/ what is the success of MS gaming platform?

I know who pays for Windows and Office.
I know MS is interesting i keeping Win the major os. I think thats pretty much in AMD interest also - at least at present.

Perhaps Mantle takes more attention than DX for the new high performance games. So what? Why should MS care?

As i see it its not Mantle but PS4 and linux that is the threat to MS. Not some API they not even pay for - and is protecting their x86 market.

 

[jj109]

A part of protecting their x86 market is ensuring that gamers have to use Windows to get the best gaming experience. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

 

[krumme]

by it being one of the very few reason to keep upgradeing windows.
Basically their sales of windows wouldnt be as good, if they didnt force you to buy a new OS from them, to get newer versions of DirectX.

Yeaa. Good argument. I can see they use that method. But i dont think it works great though. That selling argument only applies to a small segment of high performance gamers as i see it.

You can also see it this way. Mantle enables better ports to the pc and higher performance on the games. Without all the driver updating every week. That should also protect the x86 and windows market from the consoles and eg steam platforms imho?

 

[krumme]

A part of protecting their x86 market is ensuring that gamers have to use Windows to get the best gaming experience. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

Doesnt Mantle exactly do that?

The priorities for Mantle was according to AMD:

1. More ports
2. Quality ports
3. Speed

As i see it MS are better of with mantle than eg. prior versions of consoles with ps3 beeing very different from PC hardware. Today its practically the same.

Edit: Mantle and DX is protecting the pc platform better than dx alone imho.

 

[Leadbox]

I doubt MS are going to be too bothered at least not until an API threatens to take gaming away from the Windows platform.
So even if nvidia or intel were to push their own APIs, there is every chance they will run on windows and game developers who choose to support them will also have a DX path for their games, just like they will with mantle

 

[BFG10K]

Good thing you didnt say Descent 2. That game was Glide only. No OpenGL/Direct3D. Only alternative was the software renderer

Classic example of the problem.

Some more games with the same issue. Much more than these btw:

Yep, which raises another point: Glide wrappers. Thanks to the abstraction of DirectX/OpenGL, you can now play those games on any card that has such drivers.

It takes a vendor-neutral API with the necessary level of abstraction to correct the mistakes of the past and achieve near-universal compatibility.

The opposite of a Glide wrapper is for Intel/AMD/nVidia to implement a Glide driver for their respective hardware. This is exactly where Mantle is poised right now, with AMD the only one who will do it.

This is why Mantle/NVAPI/PhysX/etc will never be a robust solution. IHVs won't support competitors' technologies, so these things are more marketing than any universal benefit for consumers.

 

[krumme]

To those who say Microsoft isn't innovating DirectX because it has a monopoly - that's absolute rubbish. They have to improve things, if for no other reason than the fact that their compositing window manager is essentially a full screen Direct3D application with multiple buffers. This is yet another reason why Mantle will never supplant DirectX.

But let's assume Mantle takes off and Direct3D is dropped. The reality is that neither nVidia nor Intel is going to support Mantle. That means nVidia will push their own API and so will Intel.

Do we want AMD sponsored games to use only Mantle and nVidia sponsored to only use NVAPI? This is what some of you argue in the name of some nebulous performance improvement which has yet to be substantiated.

Do we want to go back to buying a different GPU for each game we play like the 1990s? Do some of you enjoy the prospect of having to physically swap hardware just to play certain games? Because that's where this path leads.

I mean we already had what Mantle supporters want: it was called DOS. Devs could bypass the OS completely and directly program the hardware. Is anyone going to sit here with a straight face and claim DOS was superior to the benefits of the abstraction provided by Windows and DirectX?

This abstraction is what allows me to play 15 year old games like Descent 3 on my Titan.

It took Oxide 2 man-month (albeit not a normal man )to adapt Mantle for the cpu side giving 3 times performance benefit on the application side for their new engine.
Its working fine on windows. And will do so on different versions of DX.
You can continue to play Descent 3.

What is the problem ?

All this talk of fragmentation is utterly meaningless if the cost of Mantle is what is claimed. Who cares then.

 

[krumme]

I doubt MS are going to be too bothered at least not until an API threatens to take gaming away from the Windows platform.
So even if nvidia or intel were to push their own APIs, there is every chance they will run on windows and game developers who choose to support them will also have a DX path for their games, just like they will with mantle

The thought that AMD could release something like Mantle without having serious talks with MS prior is very unrealistic. AMD is by far the smallest and weakest player in x86 side and with no technology for the arm side. They are dependant on good relations.

On contrast NV have the financial, branding and technological muscles to pose a threat to the x86 pc platform and thereby Windows monopoly. Denver is comming to arm and we are probably in for some new technolgy on the api side also, and Denver is probablyt one of the most important and interesting innovations, comming hopefully at the end at this year.

 

[DamnedLife]

Are you guys all on windwos 8.1? I don't think so. Last time I checked all the gamers were so antagonised against win 8.1 or 8, they stayed with win 7. Previously it happened with XP and Vista, but ppl chose win 7 over Vista which is a first for a general population advancement. Now if this is true and I believe it is then they are not successful anymore wtih the buisness plan you guys are offering as proof of DirectX's gradual/slow but asurred improvement.
They are not successful at that biz. plan AND it's actually proof of the other way around, the stalemate of DirectX. The so called improvements over Dx 9 towards Dx 10 is such a small increment that there are small number of games that's primarily dx 10. Dx 11 brings out better lighting due to ray tracing and better models bc of tesselation and other things, now there are more games primarily designed as dx 11 then there was for dx 10 however this number is STILL way to SMALL compared to Dx 9 games and directx 9 stuck around for waaay to long for that reason. Also on multi threading department even Microsoft knows that Dx is lackuster, they tried to improve it with deferred rendering and that fails to improve performance significantly, what it does is such a small increment increase in performance while it takes huge amounts and resources to just to implement it. So MT in Dx11 is inefficient. Nv may have good drivers for it but then again only some game titles which are not that much use it and nvidia wins against amd cards. But you can say what you are saying now about mantle to that situation also, nv may have bigger market share and better mt drivers than amd, BUT THEN WHY there isn't lots of MT Dx11 games around that use deferred rendering?

Mantle is targeting a very small market share that's true but they are making this api FORWARD compatible with not just amd's GCN but actually with other architectures as long as it can manage some prerequisites such as some compute units and the like (not exactly known atm at least by me ) as long as it's not VLIW which was around HD 2000 series and not very high perf. capable. Nv can utilise Mantle if they want, their chips are capable of it, directx can't truly withstand both of them using Mantle primarily, but even with only amd using it Microsoft is feeling the whiplash behind them. EA and their future games are not to be looked down upon on this matter. Dx and mantle will co exist for some time but IF the performance increase is huge AND the production is made easy, I don't think even Nv can't support dx then or any other company for that matter incl. Microsoft.

 

[DamnedLife]

The thought that AMD could release something like Mantle without having serious talks with MS prior is very unrealistic. AMD is by far the smallest and weakest player in x86 side and with no technology for the arm side. They are dependant on good relations.

On contrast NV have the financial, branding and technological muscles to pose a threat to the x86 pc platform and thereby Windows monopoly. Denver is comming to arm and we are probably in for some new technolgy on the api side also, and Denver is probablyt one of the most important and interesting innovations, comming hopefully at the end at this year.

That's way MS is delegating DX improvements to other companies with lots of enginners specialised on these matter, and that is how MS diverting it's business plan to a new one. We have ssen amd's move now it's Nvidia's turn. Maxwell may not incl. Denver cores for the time being and 2014 lineup may be devoid of denver while it does come out with 2015 lineup. So if this is true, which is talked about on number of sites, then they are late to the api wars and may make wrappers for mantle for the time being OR stuck with Dx11 but will their new products truly shine in these circumstances?

 

[flopper]

Are you guys all on windwos 8.1? I don't think so. Last time I checked all the gamers were so antagonised against win 8.1 or 8, they stayed with win 7.

I love windows 8.1 its awesome with gaming for me.
win 7 feels clunky and slow.

 

[krumme]

I love windows 8.1 its awesome with gaming for me.
win 7 feels clunky and slow.

Yes, and in what game, and to what degree?

 

[krumme]

That's way MS is delegating DX improvements to other companies with lots of enginners specialised on these matter, and that is how MS diverting it's business plan to a new one. We have ssen amd's move now it's Nvidia's turn. Maxwell may not incl. Denver cores for the time being and 2014 lineup may be devoid of denver while it does come out with 2015 lineup. So if this is true, which is talked about on number of sites, then they are late to the api wars and may make wrappers for mantle for the time being OR stuck with Dx11 but will their new products truly shine in these circumstances?

Its a damn difficult situation. I dont know.
What would you do if you were to decide at NV?

As i know JHH and NV history, there is no way they will just try to sit this out and handle it with some minor moves like g-synch, pr bs and their typical strong arm tactics. Its not enough. Its not JHH style to be reactive.

I agree if the bold move is with Denver its probably around 1½ later than Mantle and ttm is crucial here. The console wins and Mantle is comming at a very unfortunate time. Either the board or the major shareholders at NV is very shortsighted. Loosing the consoles is risking their entire future portfolio on the consumer side for some idiotic principles about margins. Something went seriously wrong here imho.

 

[DiogoDX]

MSI GX70 (M290X) running BF4 mantle.

M290X = 8970M = 7870 downclocked

5760X1080 - HIGH - 30FPS

http://www.nordichardware.se/CES2014/vi-spelar-mantle-versionen-av-bf4-i-eyefinity-pa-en-laptop.html

Unfortunately, we also managed to crash the system twice in ten minutes, which may be one of the reasons that AMD and Dice kept on the crisp version of Mantle update. The latest data we have heard are still talking about a boat launch in January, and of course we will come back with more information when it reaches we get the opportunity to test the final version of BF 4 with Mantle.

 

[frozentundra123456]

MSI GX70 (M290X) running BF4 mantle.

M290X = 8970M = 7870 downclocked

5760X1080 - HIGH - 30FPS

http://www.nordichardware.se/CES2014/vi-spelar-mantle-versionen-av-bf4-i-eyefinity-pa-en-laptop.html

Yea, no comparison with Dx and it crashed twice in ten minutes. Okay.......

 

[blackened23]

Yea, no comparison with Dx and it crashed twice in ten minutes. Okay.......

"AMD did not want to talk or show any performance differences between the traditional DirectX version of BF4."

^This quote from the article. Wonder why. Seems like AMD could easily demonstrate the supposed "45%" increase that their marketing department likes to mention all too often.

 

[Arkadrel]

MSI GX70 (M290X) running BF4 mantle.

M290X = 8970M = 7870 downclocked

5760X1080 - HIGH - 30FPS

http://www.nordichardware.se/CES2014/vi-spelar-mantle-versionen-av-bf4-i-eyefinity-pa-en-laptop.html

That is impressive performance, for a M290X mobile gpu, on a laptop.

You dont normally think, lets just play BF4 with 3x monitors in eyefinity @high settings on a laptop.

Also you Probably dont expect it to avg more than 30 fps either, so in that sense its impressive that it does.

 

[DarkKnightDude]

What's M290X's DirectX performance with eyefinity? Probably the closest thing we have to a comparison.

 

[DiogoDX]

What's M290X's DirectX performance with eyefinity? Probably the closest thing we have to a comparison.

M290X is a 850-900mhz 7870.

270X DirectCU (1120mhz)

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/revie...aphics-card-review-5760x1080-performance.html

 

[Skurge]

"AMD did not want to talk or show any performance differences between the traditional DirectX version of BF4."

^This quote from the article. Wonder why. Seems like AMD could easily demonstrate the supposed "45%" increase that their marketing department likes to mention all too often.

Not completely unreasonable to want to wait till something is ready before showing it off. Rushing things is what got us the mess that is Battlefield 4.

 

[krumme]

The translation is "around" 30fps. I guess that doesnt make us more clever than up to 45% faster. Lol.

And if it crashed 2 times its actually worthless and one have to question if they can make it ready for kaveri launch.