The AMD Mantle Thread

[bystander36]

if there games run on kabini apus from amd while not running on others like Intel....through mantle; that will sell more hardware.

someone running r260 - suddenly able to game next gen games as fast as something like 760 from Nvidia or faster....that will move hardware and games.

Mantle very well could be game changer; high end you could see 30%....but the low end.......could see much; much higher returns and that will move systems and apus; specially Kaveri...

But we'll see...

I think you have that backwards.

I do believe it will be the high end GPU's that see the most benefit, and the low end may see no benefit, or very little.

Mantle's benefits are with all the draw calls, not the actual rendering. I would expect this will help out when the CPU is limiting, not so much when the GPU is limiting performance. Generally it's the high end systems that are CPU bound more so than low end, which have weak GPU's.

And based on many of the charts being shown, which show all the draw calls taking up about 20% while the rendering takes up 80% of the time, I would be very surprised if we see more than 10% boosts in performance and 20% max.

Of course this is all guess work based on what we know.

 

[ultimatebob]

Hyping up a product with outrageous performance claims before any actual benchmarks are available makes for an annoying read... But it's sometimes fun to play along

Besides, the whole idea of yet another vendor specific API seems like a step backward to me. You would have thought that we would have learned this lesson with 3dfx Glide optimized games back in the 90’s, but I guess not.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Speculating about potential positives of mantle in a thread dedicated to mantle is called contributing. Speculating that mantle can't possibly work because its amd is called thread crapping and it is against forum rules.

There has been a lot of thread crapping going on.

I would call it logical reasoning to examine all the possible outcomes and be open to different points of view. I also dont think anybody, or at least the majority of skeptics, said it cant possibly work because it was made by amd. Sometimes healthy skepticism is viewed by some posters as anti-amd bias, IMO.

They just realize that undocumented claims or speculation are just that, and that there are complications and barriers to its adoption. This thread started out with a fairly realistic analysis of mantle IMO, but as it went on the speculated benefits got more and more unreasonable.

 

[SiliconWars]

I would call it logical reasoning to examine all the possible outcomes and be open to different points of view. I also dont think anybody, or at least the majority of skeptics, said it cant possibly work because it was made by amd. Sometimes healthy skepticism is viewed by some posters as anti-amd bias, IMO.

They just realize that undocumented claims or speculation are just that, and that there are complications and barriers to its adoption. This thread started out with a fairly realistic analysis of mantle IMO, but as it went on the speculated benefits got more and more unreasonable.

Funniest post I've ever read here, good job.

 

[Kenmitch]

I would call it logical reasoning to examine all the possible outcomes and be open to different points of view. I also dont think anybody, or at least the majority of skeptics, said it cant possibly work because it was made by amd. Sometimes healthy skepticism is viewed by some posters as anti-amd bias, IMO.

They just realize that undocumented claims or speculation are just that, and that there are complications and barriers to its adoption. This thread started out with a fairly realistic analysis of mantle IMO, but as it went on the speculated benefits got more and more unreasonable.

The whole thread is based on speculation.

Posting anti-speculative comments defeats the purpose of the thread.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I would call it logical reasoning to examine all the possible outcomes and be open to different points of view. I also dont think anybody, or at least the majority of skeptics, said it cant possibly work because it was made by amd. Sometimes healthy skepticism is viewed by some posters as anti-amd bias, IMO.

They just realize that undocumented claims or speculation are just that, and that there are complications and barriers to its adoption. This thread started out with a fairly realistic analysis of mantle IMO, but as it went on the speculated benefits got more and more unreasonable.

I may make it a project when I get home to quote every post in this thread that said mantle will not work because amd. There are more than a few.

I'm all for skepticism. Just not blatant trolling. Maybe not trolling but "focusing."

 

[krumme]

There sure is a lot of conflicting information. Here is an obviously-slanted piece written over at Semi-Accurate, that goes against what a lot of the mantle-enthusiasts are saying in these threads. The author seems worried that Microsoft is flat out rejecting Mantle, because nobody is going to code for D3d and Mantle unless they get paid to.

I can see the original Ryan article of Mantle, with its "THE api" and "brought from Xbox" gave a lot of confusion - it could easily be interpreted wrong. But we all knew from the start it was different api. We dont know how many whitepapers or basic structures was shared from AMD between xbox, PS4 and The api labelled Mantle. We know this is all the same hardware 99%.

But the most important thing is how this difference between api is compared to the prior generation. This is a giant leap towards making this the same. And no matter the sharing of whitepapers or software building blocks, from a business perspective this is 99.9% the same. And thats what matters. The rest is semantics and politics.

So please dont bring this Ryan was wrong strawman argumentation from the other xbox mantle thread here - reading his remarks like the devil reads the bible. Adding link to SA with information that brings nothing. I think we are beyond this in this thread.

A little advice: If you want to start quoting from SA better pay for a subscription, and read very critically, otherwise you could end up looking a little silly

 

[MeldarthX]

I think you have that backwards.

I do believe it will be the high end GPU's that see the most benefit, and the low end may see no benefit, or very little.

Mantle's benefits are with all the draw calls, not the actual rendering. I would expect this will help out when the CPU is limiting, not so much when the GPU is limiting performance. Generally it's the high end systems that are CPU bound more so than low end, which have weak GPU's.

And based on many of the charts being shown, which show all the draw calls taking up about 20% while the rendering takes up 80% of the time, I would be very surprised if we see more than 10% boosts in performance and 20% max.

Of course this is all guess work based on what we know.

No - if we look at what the consoles are running - jaguar cpu cores and GCN -....with low level writes they are going to look awesome.

Take similar apu - with windows; they can't run those games playable.......put similar low level writes for them to run; suddenly they can.

High end will see great gains also; but when you can take low end from unplayable to playable/decent playable.....that is just as huge.

 

[krumme]

No - if we look at what the consoles are running - jaguar cpu cores and GCN -....with low level writes they are going to look awesome.

Take similar apu - with windows; they can't run those games playable.......put similar low level writes for them to run; suddenly they can.

High end will see great gains also; but when you can take low end from unplayable to playable/decent playable.....that is just as huge.

Agree. Its been aparent for me the most important purpose for Mantle is to open a new gaming segment on the low end of the pc market.

Those who wants to play BF4 can do it without mantle and will buy the game. Only a minority will prefer BF4 to eg COD because of Mantle.

But if eg Star Wars 2014 can only be played on a kabini machine using Mantle, that is a huge new market for EA. Its loads of money.

Without the console wins and Mantle it would hardly be doable at all and certainly not profitable to do the porting. Now the chance of porting have increased enormously.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Take similar apu - with windows; they can't run those games playable.......put similar low level writes for them to run; suddenly they can.

Thats not how it works. Consoles remove features and downscales. Thats how you make it work. The few % that coding to metal gives is not what make much change.

 

[OCGuy]

A little advice: If you want to start quoting from SA better pay for a subscription, and read very critically, otherwise you could end up looking a little silly

Huh? People would pay for that garbage over at SA?

Your advice is noted...LOL.

 

[MeldarthX]

Thats not how it works. Consoles remove features and downscales. Thats how you make it work. The few % that coding to metal gives is not what make much change.

I have friends who do this for a living Shin - and they code to the metal; things they can do on consoles; they have to wait for 3-4 gens on the pc because they don't have access to the metal.

That is the truth - these days - on PS3- 360; yes stuff is turned down because how many generations we're past them. Allow writing to the metal and you'll see machines that couldn't game before be able to game....this is how its always been done. Why do you think we needed a hell of a lot of power to be able to run games from ps2 with wrappers, even then some of the later games still won't work. We still don't have a proper ps3 emulator - why because we don't brute force to do it yet.

That is basic coding 101.....and yes is done right this will happen. If they don't do it; then I'm wrong. I'll admit when I'm wrong; unlike others.

Mantle if used correctly - would take kabini netbooks from super light gaming; to alot more gaming....Why do you think big 3 publishers will use it; why do you think it will be in all the major engines. Its less than a month before we know all the partners that are involved; I can tell you this - its not just Dice; because if you think that you are foolish......this is about writing smarter and using the hardware and not just brute forcing your way through it.

 

[GaiaHunter]

That is the truth - these days - on PS3- 360; yes stuff is turned down because how many generations we're past them.

G70->G80->GT200->GF100->GK100
R520->R600->RV770->Evergreen/N.Islands->GCN1.0

So 4 gens and some refreshes in between.

And we not even touching the CPU.

 

[krumme]

Huh? People would pay for that garbage over at SA?

Your advice is noted...LOL.

Good. You were the one quoting a garbage article. You still think xbox is not mantle? Lol.

Ms and sony will talk all day how their api and hardware is so unique and attach all fancy names to it. No wonder, who expected them to do otherwise. Lol.
At the same time the cost of porting have practically been eliminated compared to earlier generation. There is no need to bring the news here everytime someone says their coding for jaguar/cgn is so special.

 

[GaiaHunter]

By the way, some people have doubts that AMD can just copy the low level API of the Xbone since that would be copyright infregement.

But in the case of Oracle vs Google it was ruled that the structure of the Java APIs used by Google was not copyrightable.

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterpris...-Alsup-Ruling-on-Copyrightability-of-APIs.pdf

SUMMARY OF RULING
So long as the specific code used to implement a method is different, anyone is free
under the Copyright Act to write his or her own code to carry out exactly the same function or specification of any methods used in the Java API. It does not matter that the declaration or method header lines are identical. Under the rules of Java, they must be identical to declare a method specifying the same functionality — even when the implementation is different.
When there is only one way to express an idea or function, then everyone is free to do so and no one can monopolize that expression. And, while the Android method and class names could have been different from the names of their counterparts in Java and still have worked, copyright protection never extends to names or short phrases as a matter of law.
It is true that the very same functionality could have been offered in Android
without duplicating the exact command structure used in Java. This could have been doneby re-arranging the various methods under different groupings among the various classes and packages (even if the same names had been used). In this sense, there were many ways to group the methods yet still duplicate the same range of functionality.
But the names are more than just names — they are symbols in a command structure
wherein the commands take the form
java.package.Class.method()

Each command calls into action a pre-assigned function. The overall name tree, of course, has creative elements but it is also a precise command structure — a utilitarian and functional set of symbols, each to carry out a pre-assigned function. This command structure is a system or method of operation under Section 102(b) of the Copyright Act and, therefore, cannot be copyrighted. Duplication of the command structure is necessary for interoperability.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I have friends who do this for a living Shin - and they code to the metal; things they can do on consoles; they have to wait for 3-4 gens on the pc because they don't have access to the metal.

That is the truth - these days - on PS3- 360; yes stuff is turned down because how many generations we're past them. Allow writing to the metal and you'll see machines that couldn't game before be able to game....this is how its always been done. Why do you think we needed a hell of a lot of power to be able to run games from ps2 with wrappers, even then some of the later games still won't work. We still don't have a proper ps3 emulator - why because we don't brute force to do it yet.

That is basic coding 101.....and yes is done right this will happen. If they don't do it; then I'm wrong. I'll admit when I'm wrong; unlike others.

Mantle if used correctly - would take kabini netbooks from super light gaming; to alot more gaming....Why do you think big 3 publishers will use it; why do you think it will be in all the major engines. Its less than a month before we know all the partners that are involved; I can tell you this - its not just Dice; because if you think that you are foolish......this is about writing smarter and using the hardware and not just brute forcing your way through it.

You never tried playing Skyrim on something like a 7900GTX have you?

 

[krumme]

By the way, some people have doubts that AMD can just copy the low level API of the Xbone since that would be copyright infregement.

But in the case of Oracle vs Google it was ruled that the structure of the Java APIs used by Google was not copyrightable.

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterpris...-Alsup-Ruling-on-Copyrightability-of-APIs.pdf

They can not copy it. Its different. Like its different to ps4. But they dont have to.

But by all practical means above the level of adapting/developing the code to the specific machine, this is not of economic importance. Amd have the knowledge at hand. They have shared that knowlege to ms and sony and the developers. There have been controlled feedback in the design fase. Its basically sharing cost for development. Perhaps Ryan words caling mantle xbox api "brought" to pc the right description. But its not a port.

Ms have been informed back about this situation. Should they say no and go other places? Well they would have preferred it was all ms but that is not the way things is going aparently.

 

[GaiaHunter]

You never tried playing Skyrim on something like a 7900GTX have you?

Have you paired that with a PowerPC Xenon?

 

[MeldarthX]

You never tried playing Skyrim on something like a 7900GTX have you?

Yep keep moving the goal posts - and completely avoid what I said; if skyrim had the same low level writes as ps3/360 has for 7900GT you could play it same as it would play on the ps3....

but hey - nice try - lets tryi this again. Consoles has access to the metal; PC does not.......*I'm speaking slowly and clearly so you will understand and get this* Allow the same thing to happen on the PC; like Mantle will - its not just high end that will see a boost....its also low end.

Remember the gpu in the ps3 is 7800 - so proving my point - code to the metal and you can run it on lower hardware....

 

[ShintaiDK]

Yep keep moving the goal posts - and completely avoid what I said; if skyrim had the same low level writes as ps3/360 has for 7900GT you could play it same as it would play on the ps3....

but hey - nice try - lets tryi this again. Consoles has access to the metal; PC does not.......*I'm speaking slowly and clearly so you will understand and get this* Allow the same thing to happen on the PC; like Mantle will - its not just high end that will see a boost....its also low end.

Remember the gpu in the ps3 is 7800 - so proving my point - code to the metal and you can run it on lower hardware....

You can already play Skyrim with higher settings than the consoles on a 7900GTX.

 

[frozentundra123456]

So kabini has what, 128 sp I believe? No matter how much you reduce draw calls to the cpu,, I still don't see how that is going to be sufficient to play AAA titles with any kind of decent settings. You might shift the limitation from CPU to gpu, but I think you will still be severely limited.

 

[MeldarthX]

You can already play Skyrim with higher settings than the consoles on a 7900GTX.

This I got to see - ps3 - now mostly fixed with memory issues - runs it at 1280 by 720 at 30 frames - high settings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUE6QdaDlvg

here you can see he's running ultra laggy as hell. No where near 30 frames; says on med settings he's fine.

*hint* that's not higher than ps3 - yes... the 7900 gt is more powerful and double the memory....

You have people saying they couldn't get skyrim to run on 8800 gt....some can.

So come on - prove it will run better than the ps3 - you made the claim; I've shown at least one it doesn't.......or you just again *making your predictions?*

 

[GaiaHunter]

This I got to see - ps3 - now mostly fixed with memory issues - runs it at 1280 by 720 at 30 frames - high settings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUE6QdaDlvg

here you can see he's running ultra laggy as hell. No where near 30 frames; says on med settings he's fine.

*hint* that's not higher than ps3 - yes... the 7900 gt is more powerful and double the memory....

You have people saying they couldn't get skyrim to run on 8800 gt....some can.

So come on - prove it will run better than the ps3 - you made the claim; I've shown at least one it doesn't.......or you just again *making your predictions?*

What is the point of even discussing it?
Do we want to compare the Cell and the Xenon of PS3 & Xbox360?

We are talking about in order processors.

Those things are slower than Pentium Ds.

Try running skyrim with an in order atom and a 7900GTX and then lets talk.

ShintaiDK is so worried that the Jaguar cores are going to slow down the new gen consoles, he doesn't even realize the Jaguar cores are way way faster than the CPUs in the Xbox360 and PS3.

 

[ShintaiDK]

This I got to see - ps3 - now mostly fixed with memory issues - runs it at 1280 by 720 at 30 frames - high settings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUE6QdaDlvg

here you can see he's running ultra laggy as hell. No where near 30 frames; says on med settings he's fine.

*hint* that's not higher than ps3 - yes... the 7900 gt is more powerful and double the memory....

You have people saying they couldn't get skyrim to run on 8800 gt....some can.

So come on - prove it will run better than the ps3 - you made the claim; I've shown at least one it doesn't.......or you just again *making your predictions?*

The PS3 version doesnt use 4xAA, no Ultra settings, no FRAPS.

Shouldnt be hard to get 30fps in that res just removing AA.

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Games/Features/Skyrim_PC_performance/2.html

Just see how much it changes from Ultra to High 25-30% faster.

So...we are now down to what..CPU performance from coding to metal?

 

[MeldarthX]

The PS3 version doesnt use 4xAA, no Ultra settings, no FRAPS.

Shouldnt be hard to get 30fps in that res just removing AA.

You made the statement; now prove it......