The AMD Mantle Thread

[Lonbjerg]

oh great, now we know a 2010 gaming PCs can beat 2005/2006 consoles.

Did you read the last link?
Metro - Last Light is a 2013 game

 

[Lonbjerg]

While you're at it, why don't you take note of the system requirements for the PC versions of Metro 2033 and Last Light, and compare them to the console specs?

But both 2033 and last light still support DX9, so if you have the opportunity, I'd like if you could try running those games on the 7950 GTX or x1950xtx, so we can compare them to the console versions

But it's sad seeing how easily you dismiss statements from actual programmers working in the business.

Oh...so now the hardware specs matter?
I though "Mantle" would nullify that...I mean there are posters saying stuff like "SLI Titans will lose to a single X290X in BF4".

And I could not compare them...as, if you read the quoted part of my link, the PC version run a lot more than the console versions.

I would need a hacked subpar I.Q. version of the game in order to do that.

 

[Paul98]

You are always stuck with the limits of the API. With current API's we can't get near the theoretical limits of the hardware in most situations. With mantle this should change.

 

[SPBHM]

Did you read the last link?
Metro - Last Light is a 2013 game

again, relevance please!?

comparing 2005/6 to 2010 or 2013 hardware.
a 8800 from 2006/7 was already WAY faster than the console GPUs.

the link is just showing how amazing the consoles are considering their hardware specs, because of the high level of optimization they can do with a fixed platform and less software overhead.

 

[ShintaiDK]

the link is just showing how amazing the consoles are considering their hardware specs, because of the high level of optimization they can do with a fixed platform and less software overhead.

Its more about reducing the features, settings and resolution plus dynamic downscaling. The most direct new compare we can do today is BF4. And consoles is not exactly showing the promise of magic there. While the CPU portion is a tad better due to fixed specs and better API. Graphics wise there is zero to get.

Some seems to think Mantle will greatly benefit the graphics part. While as such its mainly focused on the CPU part. Same applies for consoles.

If we look away from the CPU part, PCs easily compare to consoles graphics wise in BF4 with somewhat equal hardware.

And when we then look at the Tomb Raider example for the CPU part.
800Mhz vs 4900Mhz Haswell
Benchmark: 74 vs 104FPS
Ingame: 22 vs 105 FPS.

It quickly become obvious that its not exactly a huge deal we talk about in the difference. Since the wast majority of CPU demand is outside the API.

 

[Spjut]

Oh...so now the hardware specs matter?
I though "Mantle" would nullify that...I mean there are posters saying stuff like "SLI Titans will lose to a single X290X in BF4".

And I could not compare them...as, if you read the quoted part of my link, the PC version run a lot more than the console versions.

I would need a hacked subpar I.Q. version of the game in order to do that.

I haven't seen a single person here that says the hardware specs won't matter. What people have said however, is that Mantle will give better performance over DirectX on compatible hardware.
That's a great difference, and people have used the consoles to give examples of how much better performance low-level APIs can give.

If low-level APIs made hardware specs irrelevant, we might as well still game on the PS1 and Nintendo 64.

When has anyone here said that Titan Sli will lose against a R9 290x in BF4?
What Mantle is being touted the most for is removing the CPU overhead that DX11 has.
Being purely hypothetical, imagine if Mantle could make a Phenom II X6 and 290x run BF4 without being bottlenecked. We both know that that CPU is too slow to utilize high-end GPUs fully in the DX11 build.

What some folks have said about Mantle and improved graphics, is that Mantle can allow every single feature in the GCN cards to be used, as well as providing better ways for Crossfire and the APU's IGP + discrete GPU to work

 

[Lonbjerg]

again, relevance please!?

The same as said before: A new API dosn't magically transform hardware.

comparing 2005/6 to 2010 or 2013 hardware.
a 8800 from 2006/7 was already WAY faster than the console GPUs.

My P4 2.4Ghz Northwood with a 7800GT (on AGP) was faster than both consoles at their launch...despite their "to the metal" API.

the link is just showing how amazing the consoles are considering their hardware specs, because of the high level of optimization they can do with a fixed platform and less software overhead.

Really?
To me it shows how much the consoles are lacking in performance...aka reduced/missing features.
And that list were a partial list...A alot more were missing in the console version compared to the PC version.

But I guess we will know soon enough as we have 6 days left of december..and they did promise Mantle for BF4 in December right?
This completed API...right?

 

[BallaTheFeared]

While you're at it, why don't you take note of the system requirements for the PC versions of Metro 2033 and Last Light, and compare them to the console specs?

My HD4600...

 

[psoomah]

And I could not compare them...as, if you read the quoted part of my link, the PC version run a lot more than the console versions.

The PC version doesn't 'run' anything, the PC does, and PC's differ radically in performance.

The key word is comparable.

Try putting an HD 5450 in your rig and see how that handles Metro 2033 compared to the Xbox 360.

 

[mikk]

290/290X is sold as DX11.2 Featurelist only shows 11.1 in DirectX Caps Viewer.

I wonder if the PS4 actually supports Command List in its driver. This is from Project CARS:

PS4 has support for command list. Command list is a driver feature afaik and PS4 as well as Xbone One are using a different API, even the WiiU has command list support. For console it is a big help. AMD could support it anytime, they just have to release Windows drivers with command list support. Regarding DX11.2, I assume they still have to update their drivers. The hardware should be DX11.2 compliant.

 

[Lonbjerg]

The PC version doesn't 'run' anything, the PC does, and PC's differ radically in performance.

The key word is comparable.

Try putting an HD 5450 in your rig and see how that handles Metro 2033 compared to the Xbox 360.

So you deny the linked quoted from a developer of the games as to what EXTRA features the PC version runs over the console version?
Really?

 

[Lonbjerg]

My HD4600...

Looks like you just beat the console performance and I.Q :biggrin:

 

[ShintaiDK]

The PC version doesn't 'run' anything, the PC does, and PC's differ radically in performance.

The key word is comparable.

Try putting an HD 5450 in your rig and see how that handles Metro 2033 compared to the Xbox 360.

HD5450 is around 100gflops. Xbox360/PS3 GPUs are around 300-400gflops.

So yes, the key word is comparable. And the HD5450 isnt part of that.

 

[SPBHM]

Its more about reducing the features, settings and resolution plus dynamic downscaling. The most direct new compare we can do today is BF4. And consoles is not exactly showing the promise of magic there. While the CPU portion is a tad better due to fixed specs and better API. Graphics wise there is zero to get.

Some seems to think Mantle will greatly benefit the graphics part. While as such its mainly focused on the CPU part. Same applies for consoles.


If we look away from the CPU part, PCs easily compare to consoles graphics wise in BF4 with somewhat equal hardware.

And when we then look at the Tomb Raider example for the CPU part.
800Mhz vs 4900Mhz Haswell
Benchmark: 74 vs 104FPS
Ingame: 22 vs 105 FPS.

It quickly become obvious that its not exactly a huge deal we talk about in the difference. Since the wast majority of CPU demand is outside the API.

but it's almost ridiculous to compare Xbox 360 to current hardware like he did, again I can't stop being impressed seeing what this 8 years old console can do, any attempt of comparing the 360 to a current PC is only going to make consoles look extremely good, because the reduction in performance/iq is small considering the difference in hardware specs.

as for the new consoles, I fully agree that the graphics portion of it compared to a 7800 running DX11 on the PC doesn't look any impressive at the moment, and the CPU portion, yes, how well would Assassins Creed or Bf4 run on the PC with a downclocked FX to 1.7GHz or so (closest thing available)?

and it's impossible to ignore the fact that these consoles are new, there is probably a lot to be gained (devs come fresh from the old gen/PC porting stuff), but when that happen the PC is going to compensate with faster hardware, as it always had, if mantle can add something to that...

back in 2006 a 7600GT or something like it could easily match the Xbox 360 on the multiplatform games I think, but as the years passed the Xbox 360 far surpassed what you can don on a PC using a 7600GT.

My HD4600...

[/QUOTE]

I don't know about this version, but 2033 looked worse on low than it did on the consoles,

and HD 4600 is 2013 hardware

 

[Stewox]

Mantle comes with some serious drawbacks, that's the problem. If Microsoft never had to care about backward compatibility, then how much better would Direct3D be right now?

But backward compatibility is IMPORTANT, and cannot simply be thrown under the bus. Much like cross architectural compatibility is important.

Sure we can.

1. Find consumers that don't care about compatability. Check (hello i'm right here)
2. Release Mantle-specific GPUs every 2 or 3 years, check.
3. Developers happy to produce best product to the playerbase.
4. Playerbase consists of patient customers. Or even some who would help fund it further.
5. That's how you do it. Best game, best performance, best satisfaction.

And basically, if I was a billionare instead of so many cars, motorcycles, private jets (that can bypass TSA security by the way) I would commision like 2 development houses to come up of a game I want, that would take 5 years or more, and I would play that game only me and tease it to others while keep improving and eventually release it when it's superpolished for like 20 bucks just to get a little back on it or to break even at least.

Real dream right here, what would the game be ... here we go, Crysis 1 in new engine and superoptimized with mantle and improved existing type of gameplay (no call of duty poo scripted Ai behind wall respawn), tons of options features whatever, advanced binoculars, super AI difficulty, AIs lurking and hiding in forrest, more advanced Tactical Ai search (not walking in circles saying "come out you rat b******"), no annoyances (car exploding when hitting a tree, killed by contact when using speed mode with pieces of objects like sheet metal), all polished controls, realistic physics, new levels, functional jets, b-2 bomber, raptor etc ... Alternate storyline in the continuation, dropping Crysis 2 and Crysis 3 out totally and bypassing them like they don't exist.

I do not think you understood what I meant.

I did nothing to say how easy it is to allow it to work for both.

I said, the games will still be designed to run on both systems. Meaning you won't be seeing games with these 100k batch calls.

This means that they have to pick realistic features for all systems to run, or it will only run on a few specific systems.

That depends on the developer. Plus, if they decide to up the mussles on the mantle version is totally something up in the air for the producer, so nobody knows.

It doesn't even make sense, it isn't even metal, it's silicon, that's a give away right there.

It's half metal.

And it's a figure of speech. Are you 10 years old ?

Depends on Mantle's performance. If Mantle's a screamer, the sight of an Nvidia 780TI will make women scream in horror and faint dead away and strong men fall to the ground weeping piteously.

Technically Mantle does nothing, enables the possibility, but performance depends on the code, engine, and the maxiumum potential of the GPU and CPU.

Properly: Performance under Mantle ver. XX, with this code, with this GPU and this CPU.

Infraction issued for personal attack.
-- stahlhart

 

[blastingcap]

It's obviously that console games improve vastly over their lifespan. This generation of consoles has started close to PC quality and if it weren't for Mantle they would overtake PC's in image quality soon.

That was then, this is now. This time we're starting closer to optimal graphics since it's x86 and GCN which are well known. That's not to say there won't be further optimizations, but we're starting closer to optimal this time. If there is something that we can squeeze a LOT more out of, it's the 8-core CPU since multi-threaded programming is difficult. There is actually an interview with Johan from EA that touched on this point.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/johan-andersson-battlefield-4-interview,3688-6.html

"Chris: Got you. I know that developers took a while before they were really able to utilize PlayStation 3’s architecture. Given the composition of these next-gen consoles is it less challenging for you to fully utilize them and is there a lot of untapped potential still, or are you guys taking advantage of most of that right out of the gate?

Johan: Definitely it was a lot easier this generation and a lot quicker. I think you're going to see that on the games that we and other people launch that they actually are, for launch titles usually so early in the generation, the first title that you have they typically are not great titles, or perhaps the actual games are not that great but they look okay. Here we got off from an extremely good start I think and we've spent a lot of time working on that to make sure that we got to that point, but there is still a lot of things about next-gen consoles that we can specifically optimize and utilize. Things like I mentioned with the async compute or things with how we tweak for the CPUs or what are the exact shaders and settings that we’re using for our graphics rendering. There are still some, quite a lot of untapped potential in the consoles there that we’ll be utilizing for the upcoming games."

 

[3DVagabond]

So now you are guessing...nice

There is a lot of text and even code snippets...try reading it

You posted 3.5 million per second. Mantle, as it is already, is 2x as fast as that.

 

[3DVagabond]

It's Christmas guys, give it a rest

Maybe where you are.

Just kidding. Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[psoomah]

HD5450 is around 100gflops. Xbox360/PS3 GPUs are around 300-400gflops.

So yes, the key word is comparable. And the HD5450 isnt part of that.

I was referring to the 4GB DDR5 Gigahertz edition HD 5450XTX.

 

[SiliconWars]

That was then, this is now. This time we're starting closer to optimal graphics since it's x86 and GCN which are well known. That's not to say there won't be further optimizations, but we're starting closer to optimal this time. If there is something that we can squeeze a LOT more out of, it's the 8-core CPU since multi-threaded programming is difficult. There is actually an interview with Johan from EA that touched on this point.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/johan-andersson-battlefield-4-interview,3688-6.html

"Chris: Got you. I know that developers took a while before they were really able to utilize PlayStation 3’s architecture. Given the composition of these next-gen consoles is it less challenging for you to fully utilize them and is there a lot of untapped potential still, or are you guys taking advantage of most of that right out of the gate?

Johan: Definitely it was a lot easier this generation and a lot quicker. I think you're going to see that on the games that we and other people launch that they actually are, for launch titles usually so early in the generation, the first title that you have they typically are not great titles, or perhaps the actual games are not that great but they look okay. Here we got off from an extremely good start I think and we've spent a lot of time working on that to make sure that we got to that point, but there is still a lot of things about next-gen consoles that we can specifically optimize and utilize. Things like I mentioned with the async compute or things with how we tweak for the CPUs or what are the exact shaders and settings that we’re using for our graphics rendering. There are still some, quite a lot of untapped potential in the consoles there that we’ll be utilizing for the upcoming games."

Yep I read that and while it's true that the current gen is obviously much closer to a normal PC, the important part for me was the bit at the bottom regarding async compute (which is also a feature of Mantle) and the "untapped potential" which is basically GCN without DirectX holding it back.

They aren't really using it to full effect yet, still using the PC base and "porting" to the console. Async compute is a very big thing - it'll give bigger performance gains than fixing the draw call problem will in many cases - but the devs are still learning exactly what they can do with it in consoles and with Mantle.

Slides 22-25 - http://www.slideshare.net/DICEStudio/mantle-for-developers

Slide 25, 26 - http://www.slideshare.net/DevCentra...ief-with-new-amd-technology-by-jurjen-katsman

 

[Lonbjerg]

It's funny.
Some people post hard facts, not just reposting AMD PR...and sudden all the AMD fans tries to derail the thread?
Are we so far out that those tactics are tried to silence any critical questions/observations?

 

[NTMBK]

It's funny.
Some people post hard facts, not just reposting AMD PR...and sudden all the AMD fans tries to derail the thread?
Are we so far out that those tactics are tried to silence any critical questions/observations?

It's Christmas, the thread is hopelessly derailed already, why not have some fun? Come dance by the fire of the burning thread

 

[Lonbjerg]

It's Christmas, the thread is hopelessly derailed already, why not have some fun? Come dance by the fire of the burning thread

Sorry, to busy reading up on OpenGL, Draw Calls..and reporting posts.

 

[Zanovar]

Maybe where you are.

Just kidding. Merry Christmas everyone.

You too 3d,all the best everyone else.

 

[SiliconWars]

Why are you persisting with this draw call stuff? Why not concentrate on the other parts like asynchronous compute, the new memory model, asymmetric crossfire etc?

We've already seen what the increase in draw calls will do with the Oxide StarSwarm demo. Unless you can show me anything remotely close to that in a gaming sense on another API then it doesn't exist - and no those canned demos of spinning blobs doesn't really count as anything like a game.