The AMD Mantle Thread

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krumme

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Oct 9, 2009
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20% from what? Better core scaling? Lower driver and drawcall overhead? 20% overall improvement sounds rather low.

After listening to especially the q&a at apu13 i think different about the benefits - they are more like eg.:

The artists is not to nearly the same degree forced to place multiple objects together in a texture for no logical or artistic reason. Freeing creative competence to be used elsewhere.
Direct simple control where your object ends. As shown by the execution model the dev can be sure if he lines an object for dmx or compute it will go there. Its very simple work.
Debugging is easier with mantle because when there is a problem the dev knows its probably his fault and not the driver even though its still beta. It saves a lot of communication, time and frustration.

The q&a was not about the batch problem beeing solved or far better utilizations of cores through nearly perfect paralalization (the oxide engine used no lead thread ffs !!)

I think the benefits of mantle is therefore more indirect. Saved development and debugging time. Better artistic efficiency.

As every project is time and cost constrained those saved cost is the same as a faster game. Its simply far cheaper to get fast performance using mantle than dx.
 

sontin

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Sep 12, 2011
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JHH must have something up his sleeve to counteract Mantle. Has anyone heard any rumors or have any ideas?

nVidia is creating their own ecosystem on the PC:
Gameworks, G-Sync, GFE, Streaming (to Shield, whatever other Tegra device), PhysX (they are now able to implement certain parts into engines which dont use PhysX as physic engine) etc.
 

sontin

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Sep 12, 2011
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No, they denied it. They will only provide Tesla-Customer with integrated ARM cores.

For consumer they dont want to share die size with useless ARM cores. For that they have Tegra.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
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I was under the impression from fudzilla and xbit that Maxwell will be using ARM v8 cores on all Maxwell uarch GPUs for unified virtual memory. With the ARM cores being used expressly for that purpose. To my knowledge this "feature" (unified virtual memory) is supposed to be present on all Maxwell GPUs?

I read this from multiple sources, but here is one:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphi...8_Series_Graphics_Processors_in_February.html
 

joyzbuzz

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Dec 27, 2013
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If Dx is not here to stay, what is going to run the 60+% of the market that runs on intel igps and the probably 50% or more of the remaining part of the market that runs on nVidia hardware? Dx has disadvantages of overhead, but advantages of working with a variety of platforms, unlike mantle. Dx has certainly withstood the "test of time" more than mantle, which has not even produced one game that can be independently tested, since the BF4 patch seems MIA.

This is what scares me.

Want to see future version of Mantle supported on all platforms and on all modern GPUs!
‒ Become an active industry standard with IHVs and ISVs collaborating
‒ Enable us developers to innovate with great performance & programmability everywhere

That's from DICE's APU13 presentation.




If Mantle catches on in the PC space, what's to stop it from spreading everywhere? How is that good for competition?

I paid a lot of money for my GTX 780 in June and I expected it to last for years. It's going to suck tail pipe if the next Mass Effect game, the series I love beyond al others, provides a far better experience on AMD cards.

AMD had better release Mantle to other vendors sooner than later, by APU14 at the latest, or I hope it fails!!!!!






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krumme

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AMD/Dice claimed vastly better core scaling and not to mention the lower overhead, therefore 20% sounds low for the extra work and limited clientage. 20% gains should be possible also for DX11MT, probably more with a proper implementation. And this is not exclusive to one IHV, AMD could bring a new driver anytime. I would assume 50% higher fps for Mantle in purely CPU bound scenarios on a 6+ core CPU. On APUs with 4 threads it might be more limited because there is less room for better CPU/thread scaling.

Bs. There is no way it can be 50% faster on a 6 core cpu and you know it. Do you need to create such a fantacy strawman? What are you afraid of?
Imagine if amd gpu was suddenly 20% faster meaning at least 20% lower cost. Neither amd nor nv can compete with each other if the other side consistently have +20% advantage. The same goes for all industries. Margins are in the order of 5-10% when we are good. A 20% cost reduction is a gamechanger.

You keep bring dx11mt to the table. This is a perfect example of why dx have bad cost/benefit. It doesnt matter what is possible with dx if it takes tons of ressources to get minor benefit. That goes for all the performance aspects of dx. Its simply not suited for performance games in a market with a handfull of engines driving all performance games. Dx doesnt fit the market for performance games - and that more or less includes the consoles.
 
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Stewox

Senior member
Dec 10, 2013
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Dude were you high or something while writing this

High with holiday spirit.

You think im going to look in this screen to wait every mintue of the day, isn't it normal to take a break off the usual stuff and especially in such a time of the year.

Would you be able to eat same food every day for 3 months straight ?

If I could, I would go right now in the middle of some wild rainforrest and set up camp with survival gear and take a month vacation to relax away from all this at least once a year.

Oh an that "mantle is coming with all it's glory" ... it's a spoof on starcraft 2 tv pre-launch trailer




Why is it that this particular thread has attracted quite a few new accounts, all arguing in favor of Mantle's marketing slide greatness?

Just something I've noticed.

Because it's the most busy mantle tech thread on the internet, been, and it is right now, besides battlefield forums but those are spread in many threads and more average-gamer type of discussion also I forgot the origin password for my account :whiste:

There are some smart individuals there as well talking about the same stuff I've pointed out and others, not denying that, i've read a few pages here and there.




And I pose a question: If Mantle is so great, why now at the final hour of when it's BF4 target release have we heard NOTHING about it. 2 man months? Hmm... Perhaps not.

They never confirmed anything. Also, they need to build the mantle thing, then they can start optimizing. Building it is what he meant with 2 months, not optimizing which also can be done as many times in later updates.




DX serves a purpose that Mantle does not. It works on all hardware. Mantle only works with GCN. To make Mantle work on everything would likely take away all the advantages it has.

Mantle serves a purpose that DirectX does not.


Mantle may be what some dev's wanted, but they only wanted it because they want to work on a PC like they do with consoles. The only problem is that they need DX to sell their game on PC's.

That is not a constant. It's a variable.

DX may have ways to improve things, but Mantle is not the way, as it is too hardware specific.

That's your opinion.


Haven't we met on same arguments like 3 different forums by now ?




20% from what? Better core scaling? Lower driver and drawcall overhead? 20% overall improvement sounds rather low.

DX10 improved the API execution overhead by 20% of DX9. Yet it took years before we saw a result.

But 20% now, thats quite a lowering from your previous predictions.


It's just the start, they wanted to give a safe number out. It's definitely not only 20%.


The GPU optimizations require more work so that will come gradually, first 20% and then more, but the CPU optimization will be basically instant, 4 or 8 core support out of the box and maybe updates in future to support 12 or more cores, and the CPU optimization will be huge, but wait, depends how much of that extra CPU time they use up on game complexity, so the numbers might be all hiding.

The best showcase would be to update an old game, with visuals and complexity staying the same, like Crysis.



DX 10 didn't remove the core issues which are awful core scaling and the serial nature of the API.

Mantle basically removes all 3 (including draw calls with the 2 above) of these serious issues by default. That has to tell in better fps across the board - yes even in games like BF4 where CPU usage is actually very good, it can still get even better.

I expect to see large gains simply because the CPU and API aren't bottlenecking by forcing one thread.

Yes, over a 100%

Not even mentioning 8 cores here ...


You do know it's only AMD having a singelthreaded DX11 driver right?
NVIDIA's DX11 is multihtreaded....thus you just owned yourself.

I think driver multi-threading is a band aid and doesn't really do much as it sounds.

You maybe check out these 2 slides:




Never heard or saw driver multi-threading being mentioned ... that alone doesn't mean't it's not a big deal but there's no indication it is.

Oh, i didn't notice you posted hard performance data on matle, could you post it again...from objective sources?
Not the first time I ask you to back up your claims and nothing materialize...it this the "lucky" time?

Or will will you post more undocumented guess work?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

You've been contradicting our research and circumstantial evidence gained from analyzing the data we know.

Either you didn't analyze the data, or you don't know the data well.




AMD/Dice claimed vastly better core scaling and not to mention the lower overhead, therefore 20% sounds low for the extra work and limited clientage. 20% gains should be possible also for DX11MT, probably more with a proper implementation. And this is not exclusive to one IHV, AMD could bring a new driver anytime. I would assume 50% higher fps for Mantle in purely CPU bound scenarios on a 6+ core CPU. On APUs with 4 threads it might be more limited because there is less room for better CPU/thread scaling.

You think DICE doesn't know how to implement DX11 properly already ?



Here goes my ... opinion piece. (nothing to do with the rest):

Basically CPU Perf would skyrocket, you lose tons of overhead, plus, you get to use 60% of the CPU you weren't using before.

Be wary of these percents talk, they don't transfer that easily.

Let's say we use 8-real core CPU.

5 cores don't even get used, and not all games use 3 anyways, the 4th one if it ever gets used it's probably just a little.

You get to lose the overhead, on each core.
And you can use all the cores you have.

When you calculate it and then effectively it comes out like 500% or more, more because the 3rd core doesn't have to use the driver thread, the driver thread doesn't exist anymore.

This isn't just about multi-threading, those 3 cores that are used, aren't being used to their full extent in the first place.

And that's totally not a joke, but rough numbers. Why do you think it worked the same when the underclocked by 2GHZ ... that's why.

But I'll just say it's my opinion, not with the other stuff I said.

I don't have to be correct with this opinion, being as accurate as possible is what counts.
 
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krumme

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Oct 9, 2009
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If Dx is not here to stay, what is going to run the 60+% of the market that runs on intel igps and the probably 50% or more of the remaining part of the market that runs on nVidia hardware? Dx has disadvantages of overhead, but advantages of working with a variety of platforms, unlike mantle. Dx has certainly withstood the "test of time" more than mantle, which has not even produced one game that can be independently tested, since the BF4 patch seems MIA.

Mantle is here to supplement dx. As Johan has said. At least for a start. But if the games concentrate on fewer engines that share might change.

Add the consoles to your numbers btw and count gaming profit not gpu numbers. Intel gpu dont give much revenue. Go ask EA what mantle is worth of investment without the consoles. Mantle only makes sense because of the huge gaming market here.
 

joyzbuzz

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Dec 27, 2013
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I was under the impression from fudzilla and xbit that Maxwell will be using ARM v8 cores on all Maxwell uarch GPUs for unified virtual memory. With the ARM cores being used expressly for that purpose. To my knowledge this "feature" (unified virtual memory) is supposed to be present on all Maxwell GPUs?

I read this from multiple sources, but here is one:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphi...8_Series_Graphics_Processors_in_February.html

I was trying to find out when Maxwell releases and came across this link to a site called SemiAccutate? Some guy named Charlie claimed the upper end Maxwell cards aren't coming till sometime in Q4, 2014. That would not be good.

Does anyone know about this SemiAccurate site and are they credible?
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
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I was trying to find out when Maxwell releases and came across this link to a site called SemiAccutate? Some guy named Charlie claimed the upper end Maxwell cards aren't coming till sometime in Q4, 2014. That would not be good.

Does anyone know about this SemiAccurate site and are they credible?

Wait, you don't know semiaccurate? Charlie hates anything nVidia/intel and has a huge bias. Take everything he says with a grain of salt.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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JHH must have something up his sleeve to counteract Mantle. Has anyone heard any rumors or have any ideas?

Nv is a profitable business. And they have a professinal line with margins and profit that is very good. Its not like they need a solution here and now.
Besides their usual marketing driven tricks they can just lower prices. They still have the strongest gfx brand and solid profit.
Nv have a longterm problem with the igpu expanding and no consoles contract and x86 licence. Mantle is just and addition to those long term problems.
I think the problem for nv about mantle is not so much the current situation on the x86 market as if amd is able to expand mantle and bring it to arm world together with hsa.

Usually from nv there is some user response meaning they will launch some irrelevant features packed in a lot of pr. It works, they feed media and consumers with words. But at the same time i guess they are speeding up their arm presence despite poor results until now. They must be very interested in developing that market and leaving x86.
 

Lonbjerg

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Dec 6, 2009
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You've been contradicting our research and circumstantial evidence gained from analyzing the data we know.

Either you didn't analyze the data, or you don't know the data well.

Give me the code and I will tell you what I think.
Give me empty PR...and I will dismiss your claims.
 

Stewox

Senior member
Dec 10, 2013
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Wait, you don't know semiaccurate? Charlie hates anything nVidia/intel and has a huge bias. Take everything he says with a grain of salt.

Maybe that's because Nvidia does things like this.


SemiAccurate analyzes the data at hand, what is available at the time. But it's about digging every bit of detail in many areas, the analysis on top is then much better than any mainstream tech site; yes it's not always correct, but it doesn't have to be, because that's impossible.

Not saying there's no other site that does the kind of analysis you have on semiaccurate, but talking about mainstream sites who have these trendy gadget people who don't really know much about tech they just jump around PR events acting funny on camera, they grovel to the industry and basically if nvidia tells them to "don't talk about our fake gpu" they kneel down and obey, SemiAccurate is like totally pro-consumer, doesn't do any PR favors for any company, and it doesn't operate in a crony capitalist corporate way.

Thanks! That's good to know.

No problem.


Give me the code and I will tell you what I think.
Give me empty PR...and I will dismiss your claims.

Then stop replying because you're talking about something else. I'm not talking about PR.

If you cannot distinguish this situation and the natrue of it, it's your problem.

Your opinion does not matter, neither does mine, reality won't change because you realize that or not.

Whatever you say, I provide the most accurate analysis I can, If you found a better one, then show it.

I don't discuss PR, you can make a thread and form an analysis of Mantle on the basis of it all being fake and a hoax, which I wouldn't be a part of, and you can provide analysis on those points of all the details you found that would make up a case for it being all a joke, I could have done that as well but I haven't choosed to do so, the data in my analysis was insufficient to have any sense to pursue that path.
 
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joyzbuzz

Banned
Dec 27, 2013
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Nv is a profitable business. And they have a professinal line with margins and profit that is very good. Its not like they need a solution here and now.
Besides their usual marketing driven tricks they can just lower prices. They still have the strongest gfx brand and solid profit.
Nv have a longterm problem with the igpu expanding and no consoles contract and x86 licence. Mantle is just and addition to those long term problems.
I think the problem for nv about mantle is not so much the current situation on the x86 market as if amd is able to expand mantle and bring it to arm world together with hsa.

Usually from nv there is some user response meaning they will launch some irrelevant features packed in a lot of pr. It works, they feed media and consumers with words. But at the same time i guess they are speeding up their arm presence despite poor results until now. They must be very interested in developing that market and leaving x86.

Thank you for the information. It sounds encouraging for Nvidia even if they have to be a bit tricky, which I am okay with as long as they keep competition working.




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esquared
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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Thank you for the information. It sounds encouraging for Nvidia even if they have to be a bit tricky, which I am okay with as long as they keep competition working.

Nv have traditionally been a very innovative company so they will find their way. Jhh is also very agressive in moving his company to the next position. As i see it they have been fighting to do that with tegra. Mantle is an very important issue for them. Its top priority. An new api always is. But they have other long term issues to adress at the same time. But as i said they have plenty cash and brand. They stay but probably move a bit
 

joyzbuzz

Banned
Dec 27, 2013
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Not saying there's no other site that does the kind of analysis you have on semiaccurate, but talking about mainstream sites who have these trendy gadget people who don't really know much about tech they just jump around PR events acting funny on camera, they grovel to the industry and basically if nvidia tells them to "don't talk about our fake gpu" they kneel down and obey, SemiAccurate is like totally pro-consumer, doesn't do any PR favors for any company, and it doesn't operate in a crony capitalist corporate way.

I was wondering about that. On the page he says Maxwell isn't coming until Q4 2014, that sentence had a link and when I clicked the link it went to a page where the article was behind a paywall, which I though was strange and not sure what to think about it. I've never seen that before on a tech site. So you think this Charlie Demerjian is valid and has good information?




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