The AMD Mantle Thread

[Carfax83]

Why can't mantle do that? Being able to perform a ridiculous amount of draw calls will allow them to put more objects on the screen. Since they can't add random crap that doesn't exist for nvidia hardware they would logically just push the draw distance much further to use up that extra CPU power.

Yes, you can add more objects to the screen, but everything that's on the screen has to go through the GPU, and depending on your hardware, performance will be severely impacted if the GPU is rendering more than it's able to.

So there has to be limitations for the sake of the GPU. That's why modern engines all stream data, so that things like LOD and draw distance can be carefully controlled, whilst still retaining vast open areas and Worlds..

The additional GPU performance from mantle could push the lod distance further out. That is really the only thing they can do with the added performance in an fps game that doesn't really need more draw calls

As far as I know, Mantle by itself will not make the GPU render things faster or more efficiently. It's purely a CPU solution, so any performance increase comes from the CPU being able to send data faster to the GPU.

Mantle should only be able to increase frame rate in CPU limited situations, just like DX11 multithreading. In GPU limited situations though, there probably won't be any increase in performance.

In bf4 if you increase your fov your draw distance is drastically lowered. They have made some big tradeoffs in the name of performance.

You must definitely have some sort of limitation going on in your system. I tested this myself, and I couldn't find any relation between FOV and draw distance.

I play BF4 at FOV 90 1440p maxed settings, and I have no pop in issues. Increasing the FOV puts more stress on your system components, including the GPU, CPU, VRAM and system memory as more is having to be rendered.. So if something isn't carrying it's load, then you may conceivably get more pop in by increasing the FOV.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

What u want to them to talk.There is no benchmark,demo or any release date expect PR Slides and Gaming evolved partners interview.

There is a benchmark/demo posted in this thread from oxide games.

 

[desprado]

There is a benchmark/demo posted in this thread from oxide games.

Where and which game?

 

[144HzGamer]

Eurogamer did a very detailed face off with the next gen consoles including frame rates

As I, and several others have mentioned in this thread, Mantle comes with some severe penalties, most notably the sacrifice of backward compatibility (both software and hardware), as well as cross architectural compatibility.

Those are very good reasons to "resist" Mantle imo..

I was actually referring to your statement: "they're making Direct3D look worse than it actually is", how do you know that? are you a game developer?

Friendly advise mate, you should really stop it with the whole frame rate thing, just because a game has a high frame rate doesn't mean the developer didn't have issues with the API during development.

And btw, what severe penalties?

What were they supposed to do with Mantle? support old architectures as well? that seems a little unreasonable, they're just trying to get this going as soon as possible (and btw there's a perfectly legitimate reason for requiring GCN). It's not like every other vendor/company is supporting legacy products when launching new technologies, let's look at a couple of new technologies from the "can't do anything wrong" green camp:

G-Sync = Kepler card + the purchase of a new monitor
ShadowPlay = Kepler card

Yet you don't see the same level of "hate" as with Mantle with these new techs.

Before I go on with my post, let me be perfectly clear with one thing: I love G-Sync, it's sounds absolutely amazing, it's everything I've been waiting for in a monitor, too bad I had already purchased a 144Hz monitor once it was announced, if not I would be all over a G-Sync monitor.

Now with Mantle, the only requirement, is that you have a GCN card, but at the same time they're being perfectly clear that they're adding the necessary abstraction for supporting other vendors/architectures (whether that ends up being the case is another issue [politics], but the support inside the API will be there according to them), NVIDIA on the other hand hasn't been as straight forward with making G-Sync available for AMD cards, but it's a tech being driven 100% by NVIDIA so it's somewhat understandable, while Mantle on the other hand is almost the other way around, AMD is sure doing they're part with promoting Mantle, but the majority of the Mantle talk is coming from developers.

 

[jj109]

Comparing Mantle to G-sync or Shadowplay and saying that they are equivalent in consequences for the other camp is incredibly disingenuous.

 

[144HzGamer]

Comparing Mantle to G-sync or Shadowplay and saying that they are equivalent in consequences for the other camp is incredibly disingenuous.

How am I saying that they're equivalent in consequences for the other camp?

What I did was shed some light on how they're being treated differently by the PC crowd, while having ~somewhat comparable restrictions/requirements (in the case of G-Sync the requirements are much heavier vs Mantle [you have to spend money either way]).

 

[3DVagabond]

You do know it's only AMD having a singelthreaded DX11 driver right?
NVIDIA's DX11 is multihtreaded....thus you just owned yourself.

The complaint about DX11 multi thread is that the devs can't tell DX what to allocate to which threads. The driver decides and gives them no feedback on what it's done.

 

[bystander36]

How am I saying that they're equivalent in consequences for the other camp?

What I did was shed some light on how they're being treated differently by the PC crowd, while having ~somewhat comparable restrictions/requirements (in the case of G-Sync the requirements are much heavier vs Mantle [you have to spend money either way]).

G-sync may have a higher entrance fee, depending on your situation (If you are already buying a monitor, and have a gsync capable GPU already, it isn't much). The cool thing about g-sync is that if you have it, all games work with it right from the get go, past, present and future.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Where and which game?

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIWyf8Hyjbg&feature=player_detailpage#t=1836

I assure you this demo is not possible in direct x.

 

[jj109]

How am I saying that they're equivalent in consequences for the other camp?

What I did was shed some light on how they're being treated differently by the PC crowd, while having ~somewhat comparable restrictions/requirements (in the case of G-Sync the requirements are much heavier vs Mantle [you have to spend money either way]).

I don't know about you, but features don't grow on trees where I work.

The 'hostility' you perceive comes from the fear that developers trying to code for both DX11 and Mantle and doing a poor job on one/both of them. There's a real chance that Mantle becomes an anti-feature for non-GCN users.

G-sync and Shadowplay, on the other hand, are at worst harmless gimmicks.

 

[144HzGamer]

I don't know about you, but features don't grow on trees where I work.

The 'hostility' you perceive comes from the fear that developers trying to code for both DX11 and Mantle and doing a poor job on one/both of them. There's a real chance that Mantle becomes an anti-feature for non-GCN users.

G-sync and Shadowplay, on the other hand, are at worst harmless gimmicks.

That belongs in the tin foil hat category though in all honesty.

I want to believe that's not actually the main reason behind the "hate" we're seeing in regards to Mantle, maybe it's something as basic as people with NVIDIA cards being afraid of AMD overtaking their cards by a significant % in Mantle games? I really don't know and I don't get it, my previous card was a GTX 670 FTW edition, and if that was still my card I would be just as excited for Mantle as I am now (knowing that both AMD and Developers are fully supportive of making it multi-vendor).

Not only that, It would incredibly irresponsible to make it seem like these developers working on Mantle have a hidden agenda of some sort. Again, Johan Andersson was promoting G-Sync pretty hardcore just after the announcement of Mantle, so if he was really being paid by AMD, I would think that he would be prohibited of promoting anything related to NVIDIA.

So if by any chance we end up seeing this with a Mantle enabled title in the future (hindering the performance of the Direct3D build), it'll get busted right away, and that would be incredibly damaging to both the dev studio and/or AMD.

One last thing, I couldn't disagree more with you regarding G-Sync being a gimmick, it sounds like it's the real deal, I'm crossing my fingers that this will in fact end up being the standard in PC Monitors.

 

[3DVagabond]

That belongs in the tin foil hat category though in all honesty.

I want to believe that's not actually the main reason behind the "hate" we're seeing in regards to Mantle, maybe it's something as basic as people with NVIDIA cards being afraid of AMD overtaking their cards by a significant % in Mantle games? I really don't know and I don't get it, my previous card was a GTX 670 FTW edition, and if that was still my card I would be just as excited for Mantle as I am now (knowing that both AMD and Developers are fully supportive of making it multi-vendor).

Not only that, It would incredibly irresponsible to make it seem like these developers working on Mantle have a hidden agenda of some sort. Again, Johan Andersson was promoting G-Sync pretty hardcore just after the announcement of Mantle, so if he was really being paid by AMD, I would think that he would be prohibited of promoting anything related to NVIDIA.

So if by any chance we end up seeing this with a Mantle enabled title in the future (hindering the performance of the Direct3D build), it'll get busted right away, and that would be incredibly damaging to both the dev studio and/or AMD.

One last thing, I couldn't disagree more with you regarding G-Sync being a gimmick, it sounds like it's the real deal, I'm crossing my fingers that this will in fact end up being the standard in PC Monitors.

I think it's also the AMD vs. Intel crowd. If an 8350 @ 2GHz was still GPU bound it will make a lot of expensive (relatively speaking) CPU's irrelevant.

 

[desprado]

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIWyf8Hyjbg&feature=player_detailpage#t=1836

I assure you this demo is not possible in direct x.

U call this Demo.There is no specs what they are using.No public beta or review.Just video with PR statement this u call Mantle which only exits in Slides and PR video nothing more right now.

 

[jj109]

That belongs in the tin foil hat category though in all honesty.

How is it tinfoil? If limited developer resources are being used to develop and maintain a separate render path, it's guaranteed that less will be available elsewhere. No need for a hidden agenda.

One last thing, I couldn't disagree more with you regarding G-Sync being a gimmick, it sounds like it's the real deal, I'm crossing my fingers that this will in fact end up being the standard in PC Monitors.

You need to learn to read for context. G-sync, by its nature, cannot become an anti-feature for non-Kepler cards. All risk is being assumed by Nvidia and those who pay for G-sync monitors. If it turns out to be a gimmick, it does not harm anyone but those who adopted it. If it's wildly successful, it also does not harm those who did not adopt it.

U call this Demo.There is no specs what they are using.No public beta or review.Just video with PR statement this u call Mantle which only exits in Slides and PR video nothing more right now.

Don't be like that. It is a demo of what Mantle can do for the rendering side.

 

[Skurge]

Its clear many people here don't know what PR even means. Thus I cannot take them seriously.

 

[Noctifer616]

U call this Demo.There is no specs what they are using.No public beta or review.Just video with PR statement this u call Mantle which only exits in Slides and PR video nothing more right now.

So you didn't watch the demo.

 

[desprado]

So you didn't watch the demo.

Ya i watched it.And most of it just what we have heard nothing new or benchmark or demo but just an video which dont even now what are there specs but they only do sweet talks and PR.No actual game demo.

 

[3DVagabond]

Ya i watched it.And most of it just what we have heard nothing new or benchmark or demo but just an video which dont even now what are there specs but they only do sweet talks and PR.No actual game demo.

You need to watch it again.

 

[Lonbjerg]

I will wait for the actual game...I have seen AMD tech demos using GPU physics...but never seen an actual game do GPU physics on AMD GPU's...I reserve the right to doubt anything from AMD and dismiss it as empty PR...due to AMD's trackrecord with techdemos.



Give me a download link...or live with my dismissal of AMD PR...

 

[Noctifer616]

Ya i watched it.And most of it just what we have heard nothing new or benchmark or demo but just an video which dont even now what are there specs but they only do sweet talks and PR.No actual game demo.

So you didn't watch it. They say what specs they are running and the video actually shows batch count, framerate and other things. So the same thing you would expect from a review.

 

[krumme]

Can you explain it or do you like bullshit posts like this? If you are unable to explain better shut up. You're delusional to think they are doing all the work for such a tiny user base because of a 20% speedup and it seems 2 months of work was a bit off. Not only they have to work 2 months for implementation (which is questionable now), they also have ongoing maintenance costs and work when they support another API. Andersson told Mantle in Battlefield utilizes all 8 cores. Under DX11 the gain from 4 cores to 6 cores is pretty bad in Battlefield 4. So from the core scaling alone they surely don't expect just 20%. Not to mention the lower overhead and higher drawcall limit.





DX has a bad cost/benefit, really? How bad is Mantle then? What the hell is a performance game? What is your source for your tons of ressources to get a minor benefit? Nvidia, AMD, Intel have debug and performance analyzer tools where render coder get minor performance gains (and bigger gains as well) out of it from hours to days of work. It sounds like there is no optimization work possible for DX11.




I referred to DX11 with command lists. Dice doesn't support multithreaded DX11 rendering over command lists. Andersson himself presented it in a Frostbite speech 2 years ago but as far as I know they don't use it in Battlefield 3/4.

How would you explain mantle get so much dev attention? You think its because they are paid?
They get paid all the time but its the first time ever i have seen this kind of enthusiasm bar none. But can you give other examples of anything similar?

I dont care if its 0 or 1000% as its certainly highly context dependant . Dx is probably totally gone in the next 6 years. Its forbidden talk, but i guess thats what most are wishing for. Dx belongs to another time. There can be some personal interests protecting ones domain but its always like that.

 

[SiliconWars]

Ya i watched it.And most of it just what we have heard nothing new or benchmark or demo but just an video which dont even now what are there specs but they only do sweet talks and PR.No actual game demo.

Watch - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QIWyf8Hyjbg#t=1709

The right-most number on the screen shows frame time in ms. It's mostly between 4.something and 10 all demo.

4ms = 250 fps
10ms = 100 fps

Yes, that's well over 100 fps all demo with all those units on screen. The specs are an 8350 FX and single 290X and the demo has had no Mantle optimizations for GPU.

 

[desprado]

So you didn't watch it. They say what specs they are running and the video actually shows batch count, framerate and other things. So the same thing you would expect from a review.

Useless there is no real demo of game but only video.No spec detail or anything about demo which is useless to predict until official or real results are out in public.

 

[SiliconWars]

Useless there real demo of game not video.No spec detail or anything about which useless to predict until offcial or real results are out in public.

So you still haven't watched it.

It's a live demo of a game running on the Nitrous engine - not a video of a demo. The specs are mentioned plenty of times, it's an 8350 with 290X.

The fact that you believe it's a video just proves how amazing it is.

 

[Noctifer616]

Useless there is no real demo of game but only video.No spec detail or anything about demo which is useless to predict until official or real results are out in public.

It's an actual engine demo where they generate units and move the camera around. All the individual units have their own AI and they even show you FPS.