THE AMERICAN FLAG COMES SECOND

[dahunan]

BTW, I don't blame them for being angry.. about Europeans and Colonization.. but .. uh.. um.. FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO... Dee Duh Dee...

I am very angry at what whites did to Native Americans (Indians) and to African Americans...

I have walked around at times in my life and seen ALL HUMANS as nothing but ANIMALS... look at us.. we are not far separated from Monkeys

Which animals are the most violent in the animal kingdom.. attack their own and terrorize their own etc.. etc.. Chimpanzees .. and they are closest to us.. and look at us..

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: dahunan

They call their movement "Anti-Racist Movement" ... Uh.. I think they are racists themselves..

Both sides are pretty upset and stupidity reigns supreme in emotional times like this, I agree.

I do understand.. and at times I have also imagined if I was a Native American that there is a distinct possibility that I would be a terrorist... and that I would hate white people if it were me in their shoes..

What would the world be like if money and religion were abolished

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: dahunan
BTW, I don't blame them for being angry.. about Europeans and Colonization.. but .. uh.. um.. FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO... Dee Duh Dee...

I am very angry at what whites did to Native Americans (Indians) and to African Americans...

I have walked around at times in my life and seen ALL HUMANS as nothing but ANIMALS... look at us.. we are not far separated from Monkeys

Which animals are the most violent in the animal kingdom.. attack their own and terrorize their own etc.. etc.. Chimpanzees .. and they are closest to us.. and look at us..

Not all monkeys and not all humans are whacked out violent though.

Bonobos are they say our closest realative and they are quite highly evolved and have a "make love not war" kind thing of thing going on.

http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html

It's the throwbacks we gotta worry about

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: dahunan
BTW, I don't blame them for being angry.. about Europeans and Colonization.. but .. uh.. um.. FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO... Dee Duh Dee...

I am very angry at what whites did to Native Americans (Indians) and to African Americans...

I have walked around at times in my life and seen ALL HUMANS as nothing but ANIMALS... look at us.. we are not far separated from Monkeys

Which animals are the most violent in the animal kingdom.. attack their own and terrorize their own etc.. etc.. Chimpanzees .. and they are closest to us.. and look at us..

Not all monkeys and not all humans are whacked out violent though.

Bonobos are they say our closest realative and they are quite highly evolved and have a "make love not war" kind thing of thing going on.

http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html

It's the throwbacks we gotta worry about

I will check some of that out tonight or in the morning .. I think I am getting sleepy ..

I have enjoyed the conversation.. even if we cannot agree .. on the LAW

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: dahunan
BTW, I don't blame them for being angry.. about Europeans and Colonization.. but .. uh.. um.. FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO... Dee Duh Dee...

I am very angry at what whites did to Native Americans (Indians) and to African Americans...

I have walked around at times in my life and seen ALL HUMANS as nothing but ANIMALS... look at us.. we are not far separated from Monkeys

Which animals are the most violent in the animal kingdom.. attack their own and terrorize their own etc.. etc.. Chimpanzees .. and they are closest to us.. and look at us..

Not all monkeys and not all humans are whacked out violent though.

Bonobos are they say our closest realative and they are quite highly evolved and have a "make love not war" kind thing of thing going on.

http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html

It's the throwbacks we gotta worry about

I will check some of that out tonight or in the morning .. I think I am getting sleepy ..

I have enjoyed the conversation.. even if we cannot agree .. on the LAW

Laws are only good laws if they are created fair to all, unfortunatly our immigration laws were created with nothing of the sort in mind. Which is what leads us to such a mess. cheers.

A little history of our current quota immigration system to follow up on some of the stronger points I made tonight.



The KKK in the 20's
As its membership grew into the millions in the 1920s, the Klan exerted considerable political influence, helping to elect sympathetic candidates to state and national offices. The group was strong not only in southern states such as Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, and Texas, but also in Oklahoma, California, Oregon, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. Strongly opposed to non-Anglo-Saxon immigration, the Klan helped secure the passage of strict quotas on immigration. In addition to being racist, the group also espoused hatred of Jews, liberals, Catholics, socialists, and unions.

 

[Mardeth]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Who invited them?

Who invited you?

Pwnd?????

 

[HermitGuy]

Well sad to say but I see this thread has gone where I suspected it would, a debate if you can call it that on how bad America is. Some people need to get over their self loathing, yes America has committed her wrongs but America has committed no more wrongs nor been any more bigoted than must other countries on this earth.
Look at the snooty Europeans for example who pretend to chastise us about bigotry but cannot wipe themselves clean of the anti Jewish bigotry that cost six million Jew's their lives and still slithers throughout the underbelly of European society.
People let's get over this self hate America is bad propaganda and come together as one culture and realize that our culture is just as much deserving of protection as any other in this world. I don't care about the color or origin of the person coming here, but come here legally try to speak the language and be an American. If you won't do that go back where you came from.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Becasue like it or not mexico and america are one in the same, a line drawn across the sand will not stop people from doing what is best for familys. Stop blaming the people as it will only make the situation worse, people are people and will do what is right and they must do.

THe question is why american whites are buying into this KKK immigration racist crap to make what a few years ago was a peaceful cooexsistance into a racist mess.

Could you please, for once, try to make an argument that's based on the actual merits of mass immigration itself and not bring your cheap shot allegations of racism into it? The problem is that you're yelling "racism!" and hoping for knee-jerk emotional reactions from people in order to evade having to deal with the real meat of the issue.

Could you please explain how increasing the number of impoverished, uneducated people living in this country is in the rational selfish interest of Americans?

Let me guess...it's racism not to be an altruist? It's racism to not want to sacrifice your well-being for the benefit of others?

Do you see any issues as being non-racist in nature? Could you please tell us what it would mean to be non-racist? If a black child were taught to value his black heritage and made to study black history and to identify with black culture, would that be a form of racism in your view?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: dahunan

I am very angry at what whites did to Native Americans (Indians) and to African Americans...

Are you sure that the Europeans did anything worse to the American indians and Africans than what they had been doing to themselves and would have done had they had the Europeans technology? Didn't the Aztecs murder hundreds of other Indians in their religious ceremonies? Didn't the Africans enslave each other heavily? (I believe that one of the African explorers, David Livingston, had written that 80% of the people he encountered were slaves.)

My advice to modern day American blacks and American Indians is to be thankful that the Europeans came to America and gave you Western Civilization. It means that, today, instead of your living as a primative, you get to enjoy the comforts of the modern world. Abandon the racial collectivism mentality that the multiculturalists tried to indoctrinate you with and embrace rational self interest and individualism. You are an individual first with your own individual life and consciousness and a member of an ethnic group second. You don't have to be enslaved to the group; you don't have to adopt a racial identity--in this country you have the freedom to live your own life and to think for yourself.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

The KKK in the 20's
As its membership grew into the millions in the 1920s, the Klan exerted considerable political influence, helping to elect sympathetic candidates to state and national offices. The group was strong not only in southern states such as Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, and Texas, but also in Oklahoma, California, Oregon, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. Strongly opposed to non-Anglo-Saxon immigration, the Klan helped secure the passage of strict quotas on immigration. In addition to being racist, the group also espoused hatred of Jews, liberals, Catholics, socialists, and unions.

Your logical mistake is trying to say that because one group supports a certain policy, anyone who supports the same policy must be a member of that group.

It's like saying that because real Marxists are atheists, all atheists are Marxists.

Here you're saying that because racial collectivists such as the KKK oppose mass immigration, anyone who opposes mass immigration is therefore a member of the KKK or a racist like members of the KKK.

It doesn't take much to see the logical fallacies in your pathetic argument.

You would be so much more persuasive if you could explain how mass immigration is good for the American middle and lower classes using simple economic arguments (like supply and demand of and for labor). I find it very telling that the immigration apologists run from the issue and barely acknowledge it other than to make the simplistic statement that "the illegals do low-wage jobs that Americans won't do" while completely evading and ignoring the broader context of the back-end costs and net losses and benefits.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

The KKK in the 20's
As its membership grew into the millions in the 1920s, the Klan exerted considerable political influence, helping to elect sympathetic candidates to state and national offices. The group was strong not only in southern states such as Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, and Texas, but also in Oklahoma, California, Oregon, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. Strongly opposed to non-Anglo-Saxon immigration, the Klan helped secure the passage of strict quotas on immigration. In addition to being racist, the group also espoused hatred of Jews, liberals, Catholics, socialists, and unions.

Your logical mistake is trying to say that because one group supports a certain policy, anyone who supports the same policy must be a member of that group.

It's like saying that because real Marxists are atheists, all atheists are Marxists.

Here you're saying that because racial collectivists such as the KKK oppose mass immigration, anyone who opposes mass immigration is therefore a member of the KKK or a racist like members of the KKK.

It doesn't take much to see the logical fallacies in your pathetic argument.

You would be so much more persuasive if you could explain how mass immigration is good for the American middle and lower classes using simple economic arguments (like supply and demand of and for labor). I find it very telling that the immigration apologists run from the issue and barely acknowledge it other than to make the simplistic statement that "the illegals do low-wage jobs that Americans won't do" while completely evading and ignoring the broader context of the back-end costs and net losses and benefits.

I was not saying "they supported it also and it was a happy coincidence that the law got passed"

I am saying they were directly involved with the government with creating such a radical law that threw out 100s of years of non-quota based immigration that effectively allowed immigration from Northern European nations, but not elsewhere (unpure mongrel races to them) I have already been over the 1924 Immigration Act in another thread and you probably skipped over it.

I really could care less of your economic strawman as this and the "law" aspect is the first thing the racists use to justify there intolerance, and immigration has NEVER been shown to hurt america, EVER, yet every new group of immigrants there is some KKK group crying that it is the end of middle class america if we let these people in,

The hate groups and haters get slapped down every time using the economic excuse, I dont need to prove something is to happen when 300 years of immigration proves you wrong.

So please, trot out your anti-immigration white nationalist propaganda to try to convince me why discrimination THIS time is nessasary, you will find in the end you might as well be up front and say you are afraid that your country will be "dirtied" by another race, becasue that is what it boils down to every 50 years or so when this issue comes to the forefront when radical conservatives gain power.

Check history, its like clockwork, radical conservitives gain power, this racism crap is always at the forefront along with barrages of attacks against liberals, college proffesors, intellectuals, minorities and we see little KKK border guard groups making a stink about immigration. EVERY TIME LIKE CLOCKWORK.

If you think this is new or any of your arguements arent the same crap trotted out by your friendly klansman all throughout history word for word, please, take it upon yourself to read about history of this country. Same conservative sh1t, less hoods this time and higher profile. (except for the 20's -the conservative racists were pretty ballsy back then, but like now they crumbled to scandals after a few years becasue corrupt minds seeking nothing less then power will trip themselves up time and time again in their lust for greed, it makes one sloppy.)

 

[dmcowen674]

Can anyone say why all of a sudden the mass influx of our Southern Citizens is a problem?

The Bush Regime has had the floodgates open since they came into power.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Can anyone say why all of a sudden the mass influx of our Southern Citizens is a problem?

The Bush Regime has had the floodgates open since they came into power.

It was not bush, we have had a lot of people from mexico coming over since reagan days, and the same people bitched and moaned about it then too.

Heck reagan gave mexicans ammnesty in the 80s to keep a sub-class citizen base fattening republican corporate lobbyists pockets.

I assume this newest sudden panic from radical conservatives is just a chance to get more low-wage slaves somewhat legit and of course get the xenophobes all riled up before 2006 elections along with distract us from whatever newest fvckup they are responsible for, america is played like a fiddle but then we all know this to some degree,

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Can anyone say why all of a sudden the mass influx of our Southern Citizens is a problem?

The Bush Regime has had the floodgates open since they came into power.

It was not bush, we have had a lot of people from mexico coming over since reagan days, and the same people bitched and moaned about it then too.

Heck reagan gave mexicans ammnesty in the 80s to keep a sub-class citizen base fattening republican corporate lobbyists pockets.

I assume this newest sudden panic from radical conservatives is just a chance to get more low-wage slaves somewhat legit and of course get the xenophobes all riled up before 2006 elections along with distract us from whatever newest fvckup they are responsible for, america is played like a fiddle but then we all know this to some degree,

Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 - signed by President Reagan

1. The Reagan Amnesty granted a blanket Amnesty to Illegal Aliens.

FALSE

The Reagan Amnesty wasn?t for all Illegal Aliens, there were many requirements that had to be met for Illegals to be eligible. Among them were certain residency requirements, no felony convictions, less than three misdemeanor convictions, medical examinations, etc. They can be found in the following subsection:

"Sec. 245A. (a) Temporary Resident Status.--The Attorney General shall adjust the status of an alien to that of an alien lawfully admitted for temporary residence if the alien meets the following requirements:



2. The Reagan Amnesty granted automatic citizenship to Illegal Aliens.

FALSE

As seen above in Section 245A., the adjustment of status for Illegal Aliens was to admission for ?temporary residence.?


3. The Reagan Amnesty granted citizenship to some Illegal Aliens.

FALSE

Again, as seen above in Section 245A., the adjustment of status for Illegal Aliens was to admission for ?temporary residence.?


4. The Reagan Amnesty granted automatic permanent residence (green cards) to Illegal Aliens.

FALSE

Once again, as seen above in Section 245A., the adjustment of status for Illegal Aliens was to admission for ?temporary residence.?

For permanent residence requirements, one must go to Section 245(b):

"(b) Subsequent Adjustment to Permanent Residence and Nature of Temporary Resident Status.--


The adjustment to permanent residence for legalized Illegals wasn?t ?automatic,? they had to be legalized as temporary workers first, and subsequently adjusted to permanent status. For adjustment to permanent status, the legalized-Illegal had to apply between eighteen and thirty months after being granted his temporary residence, under Section 245(b).1.A.



5. The Reagan Amnesty granted immediate permanent residence (green cards) to some Illegal Aliens.

FALSE


And yet again, as seen above in Section 245A., the adjustment of status for Illegal Aliens was to admission for ?temporary residence.?

Same 245(b)(1)(A) applies: requirements for all Illegals adjusted to temporary residence, as seen above at Question #4, before being granted permanent residence.


6. The Reagan Amnesty was granted to Illegal Aliens, free of charge.

FALSE

Illegal Aliens had to pay a fee to be legalized as temporary residents, under Section 245(c)(7)(A) :

"(7) Application fees.--


"(A) Fee schedule.--The Attorney General shall provide for a schedule of fees to be charged for the filing of applications for adjustment under subsection (a) or (b)(1).



Bonus Question:


The Reagan Amnesty mentions the word ?Amnesty.?

FALSE

Do the word search on Title II, Section 201 yourself.

Or scroll below, where I?ve posted the entire Section of the legislation that is devoted to Legalization of Status for Illegal Aliens.


Double Secret Bonus Question:


The word ?Amnesty? is mentioned in the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986.

FALSE

Go ahead; search every Title and Section of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986.

The Reagan Amnesty didn?t call itself an Amnesty, anywhere in the legislation.

 

[johnnobts]

I assume this newest sudden panic from radical conservatives is just a chance to get more low-wage slaves

________________

guess what buddy? either 70 percent of America is made up of racist, radical conservatives b/c we seem illegal immigration as a problem for multiple reasons, or the majority of Americans, be they Republican, Democrat, or independent, see illegal immigration as a problem...

 

[Red Dawn]

You know who really dislikes these immigrants? Californios..Hispanic Californians who's ancestors can be tracked back to the days when Mexico owned California.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Get serious? freerepublic? You are using freerepublic now for sources dave?

No wonder you are so twisted on this issue.

 

[johnnobts]

steeplerot is just full of ad hominem attacks. anyone who is in favor of controlling the border and setting up a legal method of admiting people into the country must be a racist.

sort of like cynthia mckinney, right? if you're a cop, you must hate black women in power and deserve to be punched...

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
What next? middle schoolers taking over the white house?

Oh, I dunno. Might be nice to have some intelligence and higher maturity in the white house for a change.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
steeplerot is just full of ad hominem attacks. anyone who is in favor of controlling the border and setting up a legal method of admiting people into the country must be a racist.

History shows that americans on a whole will rally behind the klan then as it does now, you can whine about me playing the "race" card all you want, it still does not change history and what this is all about. Of course people dont like hearing the truth and would rather pass it off, I am sure every people throught history knowingly being discrimitory had the same excuses for justifying there hate. Oh no, its the evil PC strawman calling me out for how I am, poor me, how dare they question my hate..waaah.

I am not saying anyone taking sides with the KKK's racist immigration wet dream for 100+ years now is one of them, but they damn sure have hitched a ride unknowingly or not and deserve to be told so.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Get serious? freerepublic? You are using freerepublic now for sources dave?

No wonder you are so twisted on this issue.

I don't care who posts links to Government web sites, way to dodge the facts.

Where does it say Amnesty in any of Reagan's Act???

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Get serious? freerepublic? You are using freerepublic now for sources dave?

No wonder you are so twisted on this issue.

I don't care who posts links to Government web sites, way to dodge the facts.

Where does it say Amnesty in any of Reagan's Act???

That is exactly what it was saying if you read it again, the arguement the poster used to say that the end result was not amnesty was a joke, but its freerepublic, what do you expect out of those people.

Just read the post you made again, and think about it, I dont have time right now due to irl matters to go over point by point why that freeper gutter journalism is full of holes.

Freerepublic are nothing less then the lowest of the low hatemongers, I would expect nothing less of people who label mexicans and anyone else besides patriotic WASPs as scum daily in their forum to do something like point out reagan wasent granting a delayed amnesty that you have to sign a few papers for.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

The schools should have taken advantage of the protests by having their standardized tests that day. :evil:

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

I am saying they were directly involved with the government with creating such a radical law that threw out 100s of years of non-quota based immigration that effectively allowed immigration from Northern European nations, but not elsewhere (unpure mongrel races to them) I have already been over the 1924 Immigration Act in another thread and you probably skipped over it.

I must have missed it; I don't have time to read everything, just seletected threads and messages.

I really could care less of your economic strawman as this and the "law" aspect is the first thing the racists use to justify there intolerance, and immigration has NEVER been shown to hurt america, EVER, yet every new group of immigrants there is some KKK group crying that it is the end of middle class america if we let these people in,

Why don't you just explain, using economic principles, why this is necessarily true. Is it conceivable to you that in the extreme of having 500 million impoverished immigrants per year that it miht have a negative economic effect, or do you take it as an unquestioned absolute that "immigration has NEVER been shown to hurt America, EVER"? What about the immigrant who is a viscious criminal who goes on to rob and murder Americans? Wouldn't his having immigrated hurt? Wouldn't that make such an absolute statement false?

The hate groups and haters get slapped down every time using the economic excuse, I dont need to prove something is to happen when 300 years of immigration proves you wrong.

If it's so easy to make the economic argument, well then please go right ahead and do it. You talk about it but you haven't done it yet.

It should be pretty clear to you that I want you to explain how allowing millions of impoverished people to enter the country is in the rational economic selfish interests of middle class, lower middle class, and impoverished Americans. If the economic argument that explains why it is a benefit is so easy to make, well then please go right ahead and make the argument.

So please, trot out your anti-immigration white nationalist propaganda to try to convince me why discrimination THIS time is nessasary, you will find in the end you might as well be up front and say you are afraid that your country will be "dirtied" by another race, becasue that is what it boils down to every 50 years or so when this issue comes to the forefront when radical conservatives gain power.

My position and that of a great many Americans is based on economic interests and has nothing to do with racial collectivism. I don't think allowing 10 million impoverished pure white people would be good for the economy, either.

Check history, its like clockwork, radical conservitives gain power, this racism crap is always at the forefront along with barrages of attacks against liberals, college proffesors, intellectuals, minorities and we see little KKK border guard groups making a stink about immigration. EVERY TIME LIKE CLOCKWORK.

Please note that the current administration loves having the Mexicans in the country. So much so that it barely enforces the borders.

If you think this is new or any of your arguements arent the same crap trotted out by your friendly klansman all throughout history word for word, please, take it upon yourself to read about history of this country. Same conservative sh1t, less hoods this time and higher profile. (except for the 20's -the conservative racists were pretty ballsy back then, but like now they crumbled to scandals after a few years becasue corrupt minds seeking nothing less then power will trip themselves up time and time again in their lust for greed, it makes one sloppy.)

Why not just put forth the aforementioned economic argument or shut up? Why all of these continued and repetitive claims of racism? Why all of the insistence that it's all racism and that's it? Why not just show me how silly and irrational I am from an economic standpoint?

Because you can't explain how it's in the rational selfish economic interests of middle class, lower middle class, and poor Americans. All you can do is scream "it's racism!" and you know that you don't have an argument on the economic merits. (Try to at least rationalize something for us--I know it won't take too much imagination.)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Can anyone say why all of a sudden the mass influx of our Southern Citizens is a problem?

The Bush Regime has had the floodgates open since they came into power.

Here's my (possibly mistaken) take on it:

It's become an issue because Bush wanted to put forth a guest worker amnesty program. This has been on the drawing boards for months. As it moved forward, the media began to cover it and the public, already concerned about job losses, foreign outsourcing, and economic issues in general, became aware of it. Constituents then began calling their Congressmen to tell them that they think it's awful and that they'd better oppose illegal immigration if they want their votes. Also, the threat of terrorists crossing the border is a concern. As a result, the politicians couldn't simply roll over and get on Bush's guest worker amnesty bandwagon; rather they had to do something to show that they support securing the border and reducing the number of illegals.

I suspect that the desires of constitutents is the real reason for all of the hullaballoo. Otherwise the politicians would have bowed down to the interests of the wealthy and let in the cheap labor.