The Art of War...

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
This book is crazy...

I get the points, I get what is being said and I love that the version I have has so many slightly different takes on what Sun Tzu means which helps me remember it...

but damn its strange...
 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
I am about half way through...

Also need to re-read How to Win Friends and Influence people (need to go back to one chapter a week, focusing on just that chapter)...

Who moved my cheese was a good one as well...
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
One of the best and most influential books I have ever read. I dig eastern philosophy.
 

LurkerPrime

Senior member
Aug 11, 2010
962
0
71
I read it a few weeks ago. Its amazing how much I had already "read" just by reading the quotes on the Total War loading pages.
 

kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
30
91
Was it just me, or were a great deal of the points brought up common sense? I guess back then it might not have been, but maybe they've become so ingrained in our thinking that they are now...? I read it expecting some type of deep, profound work and was disappointed.

Yeah, take the terrain into account when attacking. Yeah, your army fights better with discipline, unity, and loyalty. Yeah, intelligence wins wars. Yeah, attack your enemy where he's weakest and you are strongest. Yeah, make your enemy think you are weak when you are strong and make him think you are strong when you are weak. Only go into battle if you are going to win. Flexibility/Adaptability on the battlefield is vital. If you can win, attack; if you can't win, retreat. Etc...

Not trying to be elitist, but not really "groundbreaking" stuff. Like I said, maybe it was back then, but I think most of the book is common knowledge today.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,582
80
91
www.bing.com
Was it just me, or were a great deal of the points brought up common sense? I guess back then it might not have been, but maybe they've become so ingrained in our thinking that they are now...? I read it expecting some type of deep, profound work and was disappointed.

Yeah, take the terrain into account when attacking. Yeah, your army fights better with discipline, unity, and loyalty. Yeah, intelligence wins wars. Yeah, attack your enemy where he's weakest and you are strongest. Yeah, make your enemy think you are weak when you are strong and make him think you are strong when you are weak. Only go into battle if you are going to win. Flexibility/Adaptability on the battlefield is vital. If you can win, attack; if you can't win, retreat. Etc...

Not trying to be elitist, but not really "groundbreaking" stuff. Like I said, maybe it was back then, but I think most of the book is common knowledge today.

Ya I agree to some extent, but it's still important to delve a little deeper into them, even if it's "simple stuff"

Off the top of my head:
A cart of supplies pillaged from your enemy's stores are worth ten of your own

one cart is obviously not worth more than ten, I think he is implying more of the psychological effects, and the fact that you are both denying your enemy his resources and agitating him, etc.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
Not trying to be elitist, but not really "groundbreaking" stuff. Like I said, maybe it was back then, but I think most of the book is common knowledge today.

How many people utilize the teaching in their everyday life? Following the path of least resistance is a key point of the book, yet few people do that.

On of the other main cornerstones is that you do not engage in battle unless you already know you have won. I can assure you almost nobody follows that one.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
You might also enjoy Clausewitz, On War.

The Art of War is a like an abstract summary compared to this book. Be sure to pickup the modern translation in American English, the 1800s (British) English translation is a bit difficult to follow in comparison.

For lighter reading, pick up The Prince, many good tips in there as well.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
The Art of War is a like an abstract summary compared to this book. Be sure to pickup the modern translation in American English, the 1800s (British) English translation is a bit difficult to follow in comparison.

For lighter reading, pick up The Prince, many good tips in there as well.

I always thought Machiavelli was more cerebral than the pragmatism of Clauswitz.
There was another book by a Russian tank general/commander that was halfway decent but, I can't remember the name.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
Georgy Zhukov?

No, I've read his memoirs but, not the one. The one I'm thinking of was in WWII and still active into the 60's. Sorry, I guess that could fit Zhukov too. The one I'm thinking of led a "war game" in the early sixties that some say was the last attempt by Russia to invade Finland.
 
Last edited:

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
I always thought Machiavelli was more cerebral than the pragmatism of Clauswitz.
There was another book by a Russian tank general/commander that was halfway decent but, I can't remember the name.

Panzer Battles by von Mellenthin??
 

kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
30
91
How many people utilize the teaching in their everyday life? Following the path of least resistance is a key point of the book, yet few people do that.

On of the other main cornerstones is that you do not engage in battle unless you already know you have won. I can assure you almost nobody follows that one.

I'd say following the path of least resistance is endemic in our society. Not for cerebral reasons; more like laziness.

Let's look at your second point: "do not engage in battle unless you already know you have won". Again, I think we're attributing a higher level of genius to Sun Tzu than he deserves. Sure, anyone who's played Civ IV knows that quote.

But, what does it mean? Is it possible to "Know" that you're going to win a battle? No, not unless you have a crystal ball or Miss Cleo as your adviser. So, you can never know 100% that you're going to win a battle. So, if you don't engage in battle unless you "know" you've already won and it's impossible to know beforehand; you won't ever engage in battle! No wonder nobody "follows" that one...

Ok, maybe he meant you don't fight unless you think you can win (i.e. more/better troops, more supplies, advantageous terrain, etc)...well, DUH! That comes right back to the "common sense" argument. Of course you don't fight a war unless you think you can win! Sure, you can fight battles that you think you can't win, but those strategic "losses" would somehow advance your overall strategy. But, again, this seems obvious; fight if you can win and retreat if you can't. I'm no military strategist, but isn't that a basic human instinct?

Maybe he means that you should think positively and always consider yourself victorious even before you fight. Okay, I'll buy into the "power of positive thinking" to an extent, but that's still not "groundbreaking". That's like a self-help book for generals. Heck, Tony Robbins and Dr. Phil should be able to take over the world then, right? Pfffft, no amount of positive thinking can overcome significant military disadvantages.

Where's the military genius in that? I think it's like the Emperor's New Clothes. People like to "feel intellectual" by citing Sun Tzu and ascribing some sort of Gnostic wisdom where there isn't much. Maybe he was a genius for his day, but today, he seems like Captain Obvious to me.

Like I said, I'm no military expert, so if there's any West Point/Annapolis/Etc. grads that want to shed some light on Sun Tzu's genius, I'm all ears.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
pretty good, i started reading some of it off and on a week ago. had to pick up a couple books to read through for work related stuff, so i'll try to get back to it soon.
 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
I'd say following the path of least resistance is endemic in our society. Not for cerebral reasons; more like laziness.

Let's look at your second point: "do not engage in battle unless you already know you have won". Again, I think we're attributing a higher level of genius to Sun Tzu than he deserves. Sure, anyone who's played Civ IV knows that quote.

But, what does it mean? Is it possible to "Know" that you're going to win a battle? No, not unless you have a crystal ball or Miss Cleo as your adviser. So, you can never know 100% that you're going to win a battle. So, if you don't engage in battle unless you "know" you've already won and it's impossible to know beforehand; you won't ever engage in battle! No wonder nobody "follows" that one...

Ok, maybe he meant you don't fight unless you think you can win (i.e. more/better troops, more supplies, advantageous terrain, etc)...well, DUH! That comes right back to the "common sense" argument. Of course you don't fight a war unless you think you can win! Sure, you can fight battles that you think you can't win, but those strategic "losses" would somehow advance your overall strategy. But, again, this seems obvious; fight if you can win and retreat if you can't. I'm no military strategist, but isn't that a basic human instinct?

Maybe he means that you should think positively and always consider yourself victorious even before you fight. Okay, I'll buy into the "power of positive thinking" to an extent, but that's still not "groundbreaking". That's like a self-help book for generals. Heck, Tony Robbins and Dr. Phil should be able to take over the world then, right? Pfffft, no amount of positive thinking can overcome significant military disadvantages.

Where's the military genius in that? I think it's like the Emperor's New Clothes. People like to "feel intellectual" by citing Sun Tzu and ascribing some sort of Gnostic wisdom where there isn't much. Maybe he was a genius for his day, but today, he seems like Captain Obvious to me.

Like I said, I'm no military expert, so if there's any West Point/Annapolis/Etc. grads that want to shed some light on Sun Tzu's genius, I'm all ears.

you do understand that common sense aint so fucking common.... right?
 
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