The Blind Leading The Blind

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
The blind leading the blind

Even if they don't like to say it out loud, lots of Democrats think that George Bush's supporters are a horde of ignoramuses. Now comes evidence that they're right! A remarkable new report titled "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters" from PIPA, the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, suggests that rank and file Republicans are more benighted than even the most supercilious coastal elitist would imagine.

Analyzing data from a series of nationwide polls, the report finds that a majority of Bush supporters believe things about the world that are objectively untrue, while the majority of Kerry supporters dwell in the reality-based community. For example, Bush backers largely think that the president and his policies are popular internationally. Seventy-five percent believe that Iraq was providing "substantial" aid to al-Qaida, and 63 percent say clear evidence of this has been found. That, of course, would be news even to Donald Rumsfeld, who earlier this month told the Council On Foreign Relations, "To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two."

Though its language is dispassionate, the report lays responsibility for this epidemic of ignorance at the White House's door. "So why are Bush supporters clinging so tightly to these beliefs in the face of repeated disconfirmations?" it asks. "Apparently one key reason is that they continue to hear the Bush administration confirming these beliefs."

Indeed, it says, "an overwhelming 82% [of Bush supporters] perceive the Bush administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or a major WMD program (19%). Only 16% of Bush supporters perceive the administration as saying that Iraq had some limited activities, but not an active program (15%) or had nothing (1%). The pattern on al Qaeda is similar. Seventy-five percent of Bush supporters think the Bush administration is currently saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda (56%) or even that it was directly involved in 9/11 (19%). Further, 55% of Bush supporters say it is their impression the Bush administration is currently saying the US has found clear evidence Saddam Hussein was working closely with al Qaeda (not saying clear evidence found: 37%)."

These people aren't going to be swayed by the argument that Bush has alienated American's allies and left the country isolated in the world, because they don't believe this to be the case. "Despite a steady flow of official statements, public demonstrations, and public opinion polls showing that the US war against Iraq is quite unpopular, only 31% of Bush supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with Iraq," the study says. Bush supporters also think that world public opinion favors Bush's reelection. In a poll taken from September 3-7, the study says, "57% of Bush supporters assumed that the majority of people in the world would prefer to see Bush reelected, 33% assumed that views are evenly divided and only 9% assumed that Kerry would be preferred."

In fact, a PIPA study released in early September found that a majority or plurality of people from 32 countries preferred Kerry to Bush. PIPA surveyed 34,330 people, ages 15 and above, from regions all over the world. A Pew poll released this spring similarly found that "large majorities in every country, except for the U.S., hold an unfavorable opinion of Bush."

Bush supporters are also mistaken about the president's own positions (a pattern of misapprehension that an earlier PIPA report also documented). "Majorities incorrectly assumed that Bush supports multilateral approaches to various international issues -- the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the treaty banning land mines (72%); 51% incorrectly assumed he favors US participation in the Kyoto treaty -- the principal international accord on global warming... Only 13% of supporters are aware that he opposes labor and environmental standards in trade agreements -- 74% incorrectly believe that he favors including labor and environmental standards in agreements on trade. In all these cases, there is a recurring theme: majorities of Bush supporters favor these positions, and they infer that Bush favors them as well."

According to the report, this reality gap is something new in American life. "So why do Bush supporters show such a resistance to accepting dissonant information?" it asks. "While it is normal for people to show some resistance, the magnitude of the denial goes beyond the ordinary. Bush supporters have succeeded in suppressing awareness of the findings of a whole series of high-profile reports about prewar Iraq that have been blazoned across the headlines of newspapers and prompted extensive, high-profile and agonizing reflection. The fact that a large portion of Americans say they are unaware that the original reasons that the US took military action -- and for which Americans continue to die on a daily basis -- are not turning out to be valid, are probably not due to a simple failure to pay attention to the news."

The analysis says that the roots of this denial could lie in the trauma of 9/11 and people's desire to hold on to their image of Bush as a "capable protector." It offers no guidance, though, on how ordinary Republicans might be coaxed back to reality.

And while "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters" may be perversely satisfying to Democrats in its confirmation of blue-state prejudices, it carries a pretty disturbing question for all rational Americans: How can arguments based on fact prevail in a nation where so many people know so little?

-- Michelle Goldberg

Salon.com Article

It's not a surprised. I bolded the saddest part. Anyone have any ideas on that?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
lots of Democrats think that George Bush's supporters are a horde of ignoramuses. Now comes evidence that they're right!

[nelson] HA HA [/nelson]
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
The neocon right has a simply astounding propaganda machine. And they will believe anything that Rush, "conservative" talk radio, or the Bush Admin tells them. They will even defend whatever they were told even after it has been proven conclusively wrong. This is why they were nicknamed "dittoheads" back in the '90s.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
This is why they were nicknamed "dittoheads" back in the '90s.

Really, it wasn't invented by Rush? I never thought how sad it is they take pride in that name...
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
The neocon right has a simply astounding propaganda machine. And they will believe anything that Rush, "conservative" talk radio, or the Bush Admin tells them. They will even defend whatever they were told even after it has been proven conclusively wrong. This is why they were nicknamed "dittoheads" back in the '90s.

I thought they were nicknamed "dickwads?" Although personally, I prefer "assgoblins."
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Dude, can you imagine how hard it would be to become "informed" if you watch FOXNews, CBN, and Sunday televangelist or listen to talk radio?

It's not surprising these people are uninformed and misinformed. IMHO, the blame doesn't lie solely with Bush. Yes, this administration lies with impunity but how many political machines have ever been lauded for "straight talk?" Much of the blame lies with a gullible public that seeks out media outlets that confirm/codify pre-existing beliefs.

Americans REALLY want to believe that we are bringing peace and democracy to the world . . . righting wrongs as the ultimate source of justice in a hard world. These same people want to believe that we are nearly universally loved for our self-sacrifice and principled "leadership." Contrary to my occasional musing, these people are not delusional (ie adhering to a fixed false belief) . . . they just have limited exposure to the truth so it's easy to keep them in the dark.

Edit: I see Salon.com still thinks someone will pay to read their stuff . . . now that's delusional.
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
lots of Democrats think that George Bush's supporters are a horde of ignoramuses. Now comes evidence that they're right!

[nelson] HA HA [/nelson]

Only someone from down in Podunk would understand the Dubya's jibberish.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Dude, can you imagine how hard it would be to become "informed" if you watch FOXNews, CBN, and Sunday televangelist or listen to talk radio?

It's not surprising these people are uninformed and misinformed. IMHO, the blame doesn't lie solely with Bush. Yes, this administration lies with impunity but how many political machines have ever been lauded for "straight talk?" Much of the blame lies with a gullible public that seeks out media outlets that confirm/codify pre-existing beliefs.

Americans REALLY want to believe that we are bringing peace and democracy to the world . . . righting wrongs as the ultimate source of justice in a hard world. These same people want to believe that we are nearly universally loved for our self-sacrifice and principled "leadership." Contrary to my occasional musing, these people are not delusional (ie adhering to a fixed false belief) . . . they just have limited exposure to the truth so it's easy to keep them in the dark.

Edit: I see Salon.com still thinks someone will pay to read their stuff . . . now that's delusional.

Gee more liberal bigot threads in ATPN.. big surprise.. 'They disagree with me so they must be idiots, brainwashed, stupid, etc'

I don't think any of you liberals are idiots, brainwashed, etc.. You simply have a different opinion on the solution to the problems we face as Americans.. I think you opinions are wrong, but I don't label you morons for it.. (Well, maybe a couple).. But in all honesty you bigots cannot stand the fact that someone disagrees with your opinion.

Could you imagine if I posted a thread that all blacks need to be hit with blunt instruments, are brainwashed, and can't think for themselves because they vote 90% Democratic? I would be banned from these forums in a second.. yet, because its directed at conservative whites for the most part, these forums look the other way on it.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Crimson


Gee more liberal bigot threads in ATPN..

Ignore the posts for a second. How do you explain the studies showing that Republicans tended to be misinformed?
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Crimson


Gee more liberal bigot threads in ATPN..

Ignore the posts for a second. How do you explain the studies showing that Republicans tended to be misinformed?

STUDY... Have you found more than 1? Please provide links.. Gee, one study shows that a x number of Republicans think a certain way.. therefore ALL do.. Bigots.. like I said.. Also, some of those issues are still subjective that they polled on.. WMD's is still not a clear cut yes/no issue..

That article is SO condescending and childish, I don't see how it can possibly be quoted as a legit news source..

How many democrats believe Bush wants a draft? How many democrats believe Bush wants to eliminate social security? Thats all bunk too, yet most liberals think its true.. A single biased study does not mean its the truth, but I know you can't think beyond the scope of your own limited opinions on conservatives.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Here's the one they referenced

Yes the article is slanted but the data isn't. And you seem to be glossing over some basic statistics. If most Republicans don't understand Bush's positions then it's fair to say most Republicans are ignorant about his positions, right?
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
bush is going to HAVE to have a draft. How could he not? Him saying this is same BS spouted about WMD lies lies lies.
And the right keeps lapping them up. Go ahead keep living in bushfantasyworld. But unending war has a serious cost to
our troops and it's a damn big diservice right now not being upfront when they have it all on the line and could use some
help. A miserable failure wasting lives everyday.
I hope their shredder chokes in a few months on their way out and they get caught red-handed and are brought to justice for the world.

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Dude, can you imagine how hard it would be to become "informed" if you watch FOXNews, CBN, and Sunday televangelist or listen to talk radio?

It's not surprising these people are uninformed and misinformed. IMHO, the blame doesn't lie solely with Bush. Yes, this administration lies with impunity but how many political machines have ever been lauded for "straight talk?" Much of the blame lies with a gullible public that seeks out media outlets that confirm/codify pre-existing beliefs.

Americans REALLY want to believe that we are bringing peace and democracy to the world . . . righting wrongs as the ultimate source of justice in a hard world. These same people want to believe that we are nearly universally loved for our self-sacrifice and principled "leadership." Contrary to my occasional musing, these people are not delusional (ie adhering to a fixed false belief) . . . they just have limited exposure to the truth so it's easy to keep them in the dark.

Edit: I see Salon.com still thinks someone will pay to read their stuff . . . now that's delusional.

Gee more liberal bigot threads in ATPN.. big surprise.. 'They disagree with me so they must be idiots, brainwashed, stupid, etc'

I don't think any of you liberals are idiots, brainwashed, etc.. You simply have a different opinion on the solution to the problems we face as Americans.. I think you opinions are wrong, but I don't label you morons for it.. (Well, maybe a couple).. But in all honesty you bigots cannot stand the fact that someone disagrees with your opinion.

Could you imagine if I posted a thread that all blacks need to be hit with blunt instruments, are brainwashed, and can't think for themselves because they vote 90% Democratic? I would be banned from these forums in a second.. yet, because its directed at conservative whites for the most part, these forums look the other way on it.
Dude, can you read?? Plenty of smart people have been uninformed and misinformed. Colin Powell says he was misinformed. David Kay says he was misinformed. Charles Dulfer says he was misinformed. Virtually every person with working neurons concedes we were largely uninformed about what was going on in Iraq.

So you see the dispute isn't primarily about solutions. The dispute is how can people be so wrong about objective facts. You can forget the march to war for moment and attempt to wrap a little gray matter around the polling data. On clear, unambiguous FACTS . . . GOPie voters are uninformed and misinformed. That does NOT make them stupid, idiots, or brainwashed . . . it does make them ignorant. Naturally, the solutions they formulate based on BAD data are going to be useless.

You have to get the facts right before you can argue over solutions to problems. I'm a scientist and I love a spirited debate over what the data means. But as a scientist my standard isn't . . . "well that's good enough for me". My standard is about strength and consistency of ALL available data. Then you can have an informed debate about what it means and what should be done.

What's with the race-baiting? I love my white conservative friends just as much as I love my rainbow coalition of liberal ones. I think the white conservatives are terribly out of touch with reality on the damage being done by Bushies but I respect their right to say, "Kerry sux." Naturally, I respect that position b/c I believe on balance . . . Kerry does sux. The only reason I'm voting for him is that he sux a whole lot less than the disaster Bush.

Chuck Hagel, John McCain, Susan Collins, Olympia Snowe, and Voinovich are all very white . . . and somewhat conservative. I would take every single one of them over John Kerry. I think these people are credible and worthy of the Presidency due to their strong personal character, intelligence, and knowledge. George W. Bush has NONE of those characteristics. If it weren't for the fact that his daddy was GHWBush . . . Bush43 would be just another uneducated TX drunk. Sadly, his policy bears this out.
 

jims23211

Junior Member
Jun 27, 2003
15
0
0
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Crimson


Gee more liberal bigot threads in ATPN..

Ignore the posts for a second. How do you explain the studies showing that Republicans tended to be misinformed?

STUDY... Have you found more than 1? Please provide links.. Gee, one study shows that a x number of Republicans think a certain way.. therefore ALL do.. Bigots.. like I said.. Also, some of those issues are still subjective that they polled on.. WMD's is still not a clear cut yes/no issue..

That article is SO condescending and childish, I don't see how it can possibly be quoted as a legit news source..

How many democrats believe Bush wants a draft? Actually Bush has triple funding for the National Selective Service Board to begin updating draft information... The only president who has ever done it.. Second, even the commanders in the field acknowledge, that they can not keep National Guard, Army Reserve's and those regular army; whose enlistment are up, indefinitely... So where is the source of the raw man power... recruitment is down, reenlistment is down, and requirements are up...ergo DRAFT


How many democrats believe Bush wants to eliminate social security? I think most Democrats think that Bush wants to essentially gut Social Security, so that his lousy fiscal policy is shown in a gentler light. Because he squandered 7 trillion dollars (5 trillion surplus and 2 trillion social security reserves) on ill advised tax deferments (that is right tax deferments, since no spending was cut to offset the tax cuts, it is essentially a deferment.)

Thats all bunk too, yet most liberals think its true.. A single biased study does not mean its the truth, but I know you can't think beyond the scope of your own limited opinions on conservatives.

Oh, and I am a registered Republican.... just not one of the brainwashed/ignoramous ones ;-)
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
Somehow, this whole phenomenon is wrapped around concepts of Faith, of Belief, of emotional response to carefully crafted messages and the meticulously selected individuals who present them. It has nothing whatsoever to do with healthy skepticism and rational thought.

I'm starting to think that it's actually some form of mass hypnosis. It's not that Bush supporters are stupid, at all- more like beguiled, entranced by a process that appeals on a very basic animal instinct sort of level...

Part of it, too, is that Bush himself is much like his followers in the sense that he believes w/o analysis, accepting leaps of faith as part of normal thinking. I don't doubt his sincerity so much as I doubt his rationality...
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
I think the really scary part is the part that a sizable number of democrats beleive in the same things. 27% of democrats beleive that Iraq was either directly involved in 9/11 or gave al-Qaeda substancial support.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
I think the really scary part is the part that a sizable number of democrats beleive in the same things. 27% of democrats beleive that Iraq was either directly involved in 9/11 or gave al-Qaeda substancial support.
From where did you get that?
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
I think the really scary part is the part that a sizable number of democrats beleive in the same things. 27% of democrats beleive that Iraq was either directly involved in 9/11 or gave al-Qaeda substancial support.
From where did you get that?
It's in the report. Click Infohawk's link, then select the .pdf of the report.

It's a great report. I've already printed copies for a few of my right-leaning friends. I am regularly dismayed by the shameful ignorance of many Bush supporters. They have completely ignored everything reported over the last two years except for a handful of Bush talking points.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
I think the really scary part is the part that a sizable number of democrats beleive in the same things. 27% of democrats beleive that Iraq was either directly involved in 9/11 or gave al-Qaeda substancial support.
From where did you get that?
It's in the report. Click Infohawk's link, then select the .pdf of the report.

It's a great report. I've already printed copies for a few of my right-leaning friends. I am regularly dismayed by the shameful ignorance of many Bush supporters. They have completely ignored everything reported over the last two years except for a handful of Bush talking points.
Ah..miketheidiot skewed the numbers.

Only 7% thought Saddam was directly behind 9/11. 20% thought he gave Al Qaida substantial support. No one ever said all Democrats saw through the BS.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
Crimson, how many studies have to say the same thing before you address it?

Even if you take Republicans and Democrats out of the variables - don't even ask people which party they are for - the percentatge of people that think Iraq and 9/11 were closely connected is ridiculously high - something close to, if not over, 50% in the last legit poll I saw on this topic (not that long ago, really don't care to look for a link right now). The fact of the matter is that this, like a great many other topics, shows the amount of BS that the right is spewing out nearly every single day...Sean Hannity, Rush, Bill Bennett every time he isn't gambling (ok, cheap shot, but I can't stand the guy), and most of all, the VP himself.

 
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