The Brain Drain

[waggy]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: Skoorb

I predicted this would begin to happen the second the USG stepped into the role of dictating free market pay...Soon to be empty husks of formerly competitive banks, all because you punished the unguilty.

Conflicting arguments. Pay was only dictated because the banks had received so much money, so these "unguilty" would have been completely out of a job anyway if their employer hadn't had money thrown at it.

If these people are leaving, they're probably going to a better employer.

All true. However, I thought the point of spending billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars was to somehow save these American banks...?

Hence the reason so many of us were opposed to the goverment bailouts in the first place. If the salary regulations imposed on the banks have doomed them to failure anyways -- due to the predictable and inevitable brain drain -- then why the %$# did we have to throw so much of our money at them first?! Just to delay the inevitable?!

Wow. I predicted the future. Fucking swell.

why did we throw billions at GM to let it go under? why did we throw more at GM when we knew it was going under no matter what?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: Skoorb

I predicted this would begin to happen the second the USG stepped into the role of dictating free market pay...Soon to be empty husks of formerly competitive banks, all because you punished the unguilty.

Conflicting arguments. Pay was only dictated because the banks had received so much money, so these "unguilty" would have been completely out of a job anyway if their employer hadn't had money thrown at it.

If these people are leaving, they're probably going to a better employer.

All true. However, I thought the point of spending billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars was to somehow save these American banks...?

Hence the reason so many of us were opposed to the goverment bailouts in the first place. If the salary regulations imposed on the banks have doomed them to failure anyways -- due to the predictable and inevitable brain drain -- then why the %$# did we have to throw so much of our money at them first?! Just to delay the inevitable?!

Wow. I predicted the future. Fucking swell.

why did we throw billions at GM to let it go under? why did we throw more at GM when we knew it was going under no matter what?

UAW votes for Obama duh

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: Skoorb

I predicted this would begin to happen the second the USG stepped into the role of dictating free market pay...Soon to be empty husks of formerly competitive banks, all because you punished the unguilty.

Conflicting arguments. Pay was only dictated because the banks had received so much money, so these "unguilty" would have been completely out of a job anyway if their employer hadn't had money thrown at it.

If these people are leaving, they're probably going to a better employer.

All true. However, I thought the point of spending billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars was to somehow save these American banks...?

Hence the reason so many of us were opposed to the goverment bailouts in the first place. If the salary regulations imposed on the banks have doomed them to failure anyways -- due to the predictable and inevitable brain drain -- then why the %$# did we have to throw so much of our money at them first?! Just to delay the inevitable?!

Wow. I predicted the future. Fucking swell.

why did we throw billions at GM to let it go under? why did we throw more at GM when we knew it was going under no matter what?

Because I think GM actually paid people wages and not just invented an amount on paper.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
All true. However, I thought the point of spending billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars was to somehow save these American banks...?

Hence the reason so many of us were opposed to the goverment bailouts in the first place. If the salary regulations imposed on the banks have doomed them to failure anyways -- due to the all too predictable and inevitable brain drain -- then why the %$# did we have to throw so much of our money at them first?! Just to delay the inevitable?!

Wow. I predicted the future. Fucking swell.

why did we throw billions at GM to let it go under? why did we throw more at GM when we knew it was going under no matter what?

That's a damn good question.

I predicted that one as well -- many people did.

We were ignored.

As with these banks, that money was thrown away as well.

We're drowning in debt.

We should have just ripped off the bandaid, licked the very painful wounds, and moved on. Period.

Now, when the bill eventually arrives, and it will, the pain will be beyond our wildest nightmares.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Because I think GM actually paid people wages and not just invented an amount on paper.

You're right. It was actually the unions who "just invented an amount on paper," not GM itself.

woops.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: KMFJD
I don't understand the concept of receiving a bonus when your company lost money...

The biggest problem is the "game" banks played and the current perception of the "game".

I-Banking salaries are technically composed of 3 things. Your base salary, your "deferred" salary, and your performance bonus. Deferred salary doesn't really exist, but it is technically there and was, traditionally, wrapped up into your "bonus".

Why? Mainly for tax, accounting, and cash management purposes.

Take for example any Director level employee. The monthly "base" salary might be ~180K. That same person in many other industries, or in a non-3 level pay system, might make $300K. That would be the "normal" market level pay for somebody at that level. However, the bank doesn't pay him $300K, they pay him $180K and "defer" the $120K to the end of the year, investing the 120K and getting tax benefits.

At the end of the year the guy's business lost money, but he might still get $120K "bonus", or maybe $60K. However, he wouldn't get the third component, performance.

If a "normal" bonus was $120K, then a "good" bonus is anything above that. Let's say that his business made lots of money, thus he gets a $300K "bonus".

Did he really get a $300K "bonus" or did he get a $180K bonus?

See, realistcally, if he doesn't get *any* "bonus", he's taking a pay cut compared to what he should make. The "deferred compensation" part of the "bonus" is eliminated, essentially a pay cut of 40% (120/300).


This is why Citi, BoA, JPM, among others, are increasing the base pay of employees now. They are stopping the "deferred compensation" BS and just straight up compensating people, like any normal company.

How fair is it for your company to withold 40% of your paycheck, then, at the end of the year, decide not to pay it out because people think that that witholding is a "bonus" and not your normal base pay?

Wouldn't you just move to a company that was going to NOT withold that amount, or, if they do, not face any pressure to not pay you the witholding?

OK, then move to another company. The sense of entitlement in that post is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. If your company is being saved from bankruptcy by a government bailout, you don't get a bonus, just like employees at other struggling companies didn't get a bonus this year. Just be happy you got a job. If you think you can get a better offer, by all means get one. There are plenty of unemployed financial workers out there to take your spot.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: senseamp
OK, then move to another company. The sense of entitlement in that post is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. If your company is being saved from bankruptcy by a government bailout, you don't get a bonus, just like employees at other struggling companies didn't get a bonus this year. Just be happy you got a job. If you think you can get a better offer, by all means get one. There are plenty of unemployed financial workers out there to take your spot.

...which just means that the banks our tax money is supposed to be "saving" will be filled with second-rate financial dolts who will eventually cause the company to fail anyways.

That's the Government's brilliant plan?!?

swell.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
OK, then move to another company. The sense of entitlement in that post is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. If your company is being saved from bankruptcy by a government bailout, you don't get a bonus, just like employees at other struggling companies didn't get a bonus this year. Just be happy you got a job. If you think you can get a better offer, by all means get one. There are plenty of unemployed financial workers out there to take your spot.

...which just means that the banks our tax money is supposed to be "saving" will be filled with second-rate financial dolts who will eventually cause the company to fail anyways.

That's the Government's brilliant plan?!?

swell.

Well, the old compensation practices that filled these banks with "top" talent still resulted in enormous losses that caused these companies to fail, except for the government savings. Maybe we need second rate financial dolts who stick to the basics instead of wunderkinds with big egos who think they are smarter than they are.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

lol, you're kidding me, right?

The majority of bankers are salaried. Do you understand that? Without a bonus and considering cost of living, while working the same amount of hours, they are getting paid far less than 60% of their former salary per hour.

By the way, what part am I supposed to be kidding about and what does them being salaried have to do with it? I'm salaried also and my "bonus" was getting paid overtime for working my ass off getting jobs done and doing them well. I'm still expected to get them done and do them just as well but not get paid for the extra time spent on them. I had to take one for the team. They could have given up some of their precious bonuses but no...they had to take government money and then spread it around.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
OK, then move to another company. The sense of entitlement in that post is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. If your company is being saved from bankruptcy by a government bailout, you don't get a bonus, just like employees at other struggling companies didn't get a bonus this year. Just be happy you got a job. If you think you can get a better offer, by all means get one. There are plenty of unemployed financial workers out there to take your spot.

...which just means that the banks our tax money is supposed to be "saving" will be filled with second-rate financial dolts who will eventually cause the company to fail anyways.

That's the Government's brilliant plan?!?

swell.

Well, the old compensation practices that filled these banks with "top" talent still resulted in enormous losses that caused these companies to fail, except for the government savings. Maybe we need second rate financial dolts who stick to the basics instead of wunderkinds with big egos who think they are smarter than they are.

Yes sir!!!

 

[Lemon law]

At the end of the day, the first myth that should die in this banking crisis is that any banker is worth the megabucks they get paid.

Granted some are intelligent and hard working, but lots of other people in other walks of life work harder and don't get paid a fraction of what bankers get.

This is not a brain drain, this is some stinking thinking drain. The Tarp funds employers will end up better off and anyone willing to hire the overly greedy will end off worse off.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
OK, then move to another company. The sense of entitlement in that post is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. If your company is being saved from bankruptcy by a government bailout, you don't get a bonus, just like employees at other struggling companies didn't get a bonus this year. Just be happy you got a job. If you think you can get a better offer, by all means get one. There are plenty of unemployed financial workers out there to take your spot.

...which just means that the banks our tax money is supposed to be "saving" will be filled with second-rate financial dolts who will eventually cause the company to fail anyways.

That's the Government's brilliant plan?!?

swell.

Well, the old compensation practices that filled these banks with "top" talent still resulted in enormous losses that caused these companies to fail, except for the government savings. Maybe we need second rate financial dolts who stick to the basics instead of wunderkinds with big egos who think they are smarter than they are.

umm, for the umpteenth time in this thread, the new salary regulations are causing the bailed out banks TO LOSE THE GOOD EMPLOYEES WHO USED TO TURN A LARGE PROFIT!!!!111

Which part of that statement sounds like an effective way to "save" a company?!

The salaries OF THE GOOD EMPLOYEES themselves had absolutely nothing to do with the failure of these banks.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
At the end of the day, the first myth that should die in this banking crisis is that any banker is worth the megabucks they get paid.

Granted some are intelligent and hard working, but lots of other people in other walks of life work harder and don't get paid a fraction of what bankers get.

This is not a brain drain, this is some stinking thinking drain. The Tarp funds employers will end up better off and anyone willing to hire the overly greedy will end off worse off.

Are you suggesting that the employees' salaries had something to do with the financial crisis itself?! That's ridiculous! The money paid out in salaries was PENNIES compared to the amount of money involved in the financial markets themselves. You could have dropped their collective compensation to $1.00, and the economic collapse would have still occurred.

All we're doing, by artificially limiting the salaries for our best American analysts at these banks, is pushing ALL SUCCESSFUL BANKING OFFSHORE. Period.

When our most talented financial analysts leave, these bailed out banks won't stand a fucking chance in the global financial industry wherein foreign banks realize that they still need to pay their BEST employees very well. Period.

The ignorance in this thread is epic.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan


All we're doing, by artificially limiting the salaries for our best American analysts at these banks, is pushing ALL SUCCESSFUL BANKING offshore. Period.

We are pushing manufacturing offshore because we are not limiting or reducing the work force salaries (of the most productive and best workforce on the planet) and we pushing banking offshore because we are limiting (temporary) bonuses and salaries.

I see how this works!

How many of you would complain if the workers/staff at the GM plant in Kansas City (I think) that makes the Malibu received a big bonus right now? They actually have not slowed down production and are making money on that platform right now. They deserve a bonus, right?

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan


All we're doing, by artificially limiting the salaries for our best American analysts at these banks, is pushing ALL SUCCESSFUL BANKING offshore. Period.

We are pushing manufacturing offshore because we are not limiting or reducing the work force salaries and we pushing banking offshore because we are limiting (temporary) bonuses and salaries.

I see how this works!

"The only way to win is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan


All we're doing, by artificially limiting the salaries for our best American analysts at these banks, is pushing ALL SUCCESSFUL BANKING offshore. Period.

We are pushing manufacturing offshore because we are not limiting or reducing the work force salaries and we pushing banking offshore because we are limiting (temporary) bonuses and salaries.

I see how this works!

"The only way to win is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

A few milliseconds of brilliant light and we're all vaporized!

 

[seemingly random]

A person can be in the mafia and a top performing collector - but they're still in the mafia.

This is not to say that all bankers, finance people, etc. are mafia-esque but some are. These shouldn't be allowed to 'pass go'.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan


All we're doing, by artificially limiting the salaries for our best American analysts at these banks, is pushing ALL SUCCESSFUL BANKING offshore. Period.

We are pushing manufacturing offshore because we are not limiting or reducing the work force salaries and we pushing banking offshore because we are limiting (temporary) bonuses and salaries.

I see how this works!

"The only way to win is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

A few milliseconds of brilliant light and we're all vaporized!

Then we will have solved all the world's problems! :laugh:

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

All we're doing, by artificially limiting the salaries for our best American analysts at these banks, is pushing ALL SUCCESSFUL BANKING OFFSHORE. Period

When our most talented financial analysts leave, these bailed out banks won't stand a fucking chance in the global financial industry wherein foreign banks realize that they still need to pay their BEST employees very well. Period..

Right! Where are they going to go? I'm sure the Cayman Islands have thousands of well paying jobs just waiting. :roll:

The only thing far too many of these bozos are good at is ripping off the public to line their own pockets, furnish their summer chateaus and rig their golden parachutes.

What are they worth? Ever hear of fair market forces?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

All we're doing, by artificially limiting the salaries for our best American analysts at these banks, is pushing ALL SUCCESSFUL BANKING OFFSHORE. Period

When our most talented financial analysts leave, these bailed out banks won't stand a fucking chance in the global financial industry wherein foreign banks realize that they still need to pay their BEST employees very well. Period..

Right! Where are they going to go? I'm sure the Cayman Islands have thousands of well paying jobs just waiting. :roll:

The only thing far too many of these bozos are good at is ripping off the public to line their own pockets, furnish their summer chateaus and rig their golden parachutes.

What are they worth? Ever hear of fair market forces?

It was fair market that determined their salaries.

Right now; the government is attempting to regulate the market.
The fact that the government has $$ invested means the government should act as a shareholder - not the board of directors or management

 

[marincounty]

Well, since outsourcing is good for business, right? I'm sure there are plenty of bright Indian MBA types who could do this work- for a lot less money. After all, if we can import thousands of engineers to replace homegrown talent, then importing a bunch of bankers should be a no-brainer.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
OK, then move to another company. The sense of entitlement in that post is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. If your company is being saved from bankruptcy by a government bailout, you don't get a bonus, just like employees at other struggling companies didn't get a bonus this year. Just be happy you got a job. If you think you can get a better offer, by all means get one. There are plenty of unemployed financial workers out there to take your spot.

...which just means that the banks our tax money is supposed to be "saving" will be filled with second-rate financial dolts who will eventually cause the company to fail anyways.

That's the Government's brilliant plan?!?

swell.

Well, the old compensation practices that filled these banks with "top" talent still resulted in enormous losses that caused these companies to fail, except for the government savings. Maybe we need second rate financial dolts who stick to the basics instead of wunderkinds with big egos who think they are smarter than they are.

umm, for the umpteenth time in this thread, the new salary regulations are causing the bailed out banks TO LOSE THE GOOD EMPLOYEES WHO USED TO TURN A LARGE PROFIT!!!!111

Which part of that statement sounds like an effective way to "save" a company?!

The salaries OF THE GOOD EMPLOYEES themselves had absolutely nothing to do with the failure of these banks.

On average, the highly compensated employees lost these companies hundreds of billions over the long term. Granted some of them turned a profit, but so what, some gamblers end up beating the house too. But on average, high compensation was not just a huge waste of money, it encouraged excessive risk taking in the name of short term profits. Unless you can reliably predict who is going to turn a huge profit going forward, and who is simply gambling, I'd rather the government save me money and hire boring second tier bankers, the types who did not get huge bonuses, but stayed at regional banks, played it safe and avoided this mess entirely. Wall street hot shots who think they are entitled to a bonus no matter what can take a hike.

 

[Hacp]

OK, then move to another company. The sense of entitlement in that post is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. If your company is being saved from bankruptcy by a government bailout, you don't get a bonus, just like employees at other struggling companies didn't get a bonus this year. Just be happy you got a job. If you think you can get a better offer, by all means get one. There are plenty of unemployed financial workers out there to take your spot.

I whole heartily agree. Now if you could apply that attitude to some other overcompensated workers(like union members), we'll be seeing eye to eye.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Hacp

OK, then move to another company. The sense of entitlement in that post is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. If your company is being saved from bankruptcy by a government bailout, you don't get a bonus, just like employees at other struggling companies didn't get a bonus this year. Just be happy you got a job. If you think you can get a better offer, by all means get one. There are plenty of unemployed financial workers out there to take your spot.

I whole heartily agree. Now if you could apply that attitude to some other overcompensated workers(like union members), we'll be seeing eye to eye.

Are union workers getting six figure bonuses now?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Hacp

OK, then move to another company. The sense of entitlement in that post is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. If your company is being saved from bankruptcy by a government bailout, you don't get a bonus, just like employees at other struggling companies didn't get a bonus this year. Just be happy you got a job. If you think you can get a better offer, by all means get one. There are plenty of unemployed financial workers out there to take your spot.

I whole heartily agree. Now if you could apply that attitude to some other overcompensated workers(like union members), we'll be seeing eye to eye.

Why such a hard on for union workers? Did you get diddled by one when younger?