the FL/MI democratic mess

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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: ScottMac
I Think the best solution I've heard for the Florida & Michigan situation is to just split the vote 50% to each candidate; then the delegates are seated, and neither candidate gains any additional advantage from the screw-up.

The mail-in vote thing they are now proposing looks like it maximizes the fraud potential ... par for the course, I guess.

Yes, the mail-in vote looks like it has the potential to be a disaster.

FL has no experience with this. No one has adequately addressed how they will confirm the legitimacy of the ballot (signature, whatever).

The addresses used to mail the ballots are from an old database. Low income people are thought to move rather frequently.

Part-year residents registered to vote in FL will likely be gone in June due to the heat. Students will be out of school.

It looks a cluster fsck to me.

Fern
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Why do anything? The DNC and candidates made agreements a long time ago...I don't understand why they don't abide by these agreements?

It's not 'they', it's Hillary. She is far behind in elected delegates and thinks she has a chance to gain a few in FL and MI as well as drag this race out.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,091
6,608
126
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
I disagree with the way you frame this...Republicans have no lock on perversity and Democrats have no lock on cowardice...both parties are equally respresented in both these departments IMO.

Then we disagree. I think each is specialized in the way I said but naturally as a generality.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
florida or no, she's really got no incentive to step out of this race, since neither can win without the super delegates handing them the nomination.

people did object to the original ruling (I think the FL democratic party even sued the DNC), but no one made major hay out of it because who would have thought the election would come down to a hundred delegates or so? conventional wisdom seemed to be that either Hillary would sweep the whole thing or that she'd be finished after Obama/Edwards crushed her in Iowa/NH.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,091
6,608
126
Originally posted by: loki8481
Obama's been the front-runner for a month and a half now, you guys need to stop being so paranoid.

he is going to be the democratic nominee for president in 2008.

a Florida revote will put him in a better position to try and win FL away from McCain in November, and more easily clinch the presidency.

maybe Obama needs to take his own advice...

We've learned that when we pass laws and make policy in this country, our government all too often forgets those in need.

Now, we are in danger of making a similar mistake, this time by potentially limiting access to one of our most fundamental and constitutionally protected rights: the right to vote.

it's just a weird turn of events that even though Obama sponsored legislation to allow mail-in voting, he now thinks mail-in voting is a bad idea? why'd he write the bill if he thinks mail-in voting is so fraud-ridden and is "disproportionately limiting voting access to seniors, minority voters, young voters, lower income voters, new voters, and new residents," to quote one of his people.

Obama should no more seek to change the rules if they are to his advantage than otherwise. Neither he nor Hillary should have any say in the matter, period. Their agreement should be inviolate and if Hillary was a person you could trust as President it would be.

 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Fla. presidential primary re-do unlikely



By BRENDAN FARRINGTON, Associated Press Writer 47 minutes ago

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - The head of Florida's Democratic Party said Thursday the proposed vote-by-mail presidential primary is unlikely to go forward because of strong opposition and concerns about conducting the vote.

Karen Thurman said she is asking Democratic leaders, the national party and presidential candidates Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton to consider the option as the best way to resolve the delegate dispute. Florida had all 210 of its delegates to the national convention stripped after it violated national party rules by moving up its primary to January.

When asked if the alternative will be implemented, knowing what she knows about potential problems executing the plan and widespread concerns, Thurman said, "I have a feeling that this is probably closer to not, than yes."

Thurman will review comments from Democratic leaders and make a decision by Monday on whether to proceed with the re-vote. But she acknowledged that Obama has had concerns and the Democratic National Committee won't support a proposal unless both candidates also back it. She said there's a serious question over whether the state could legally verify the signatures of a privately run election.

"If this becomes something that we can't do, then we can't do it," Thurman said.

The party sent the campaigns and state and national party leaders an outline of the proposal on Wednesday. All of Florida's 4.1 million Democrats would be mailed a ballot. They could send it back, or cast a ballot in one of 50 regional voting centers that would be set up. The election would end June 3, a week before a Democratic National Committee deadline to name delegates. The estimated cost is $10 million to $12 million.

Democrats in Florida and Michigan have been scrambling to come up with alternatives to ensure their delegates will be seated at the national convention in Denver this summer. The Democratic National Committee punished the states for moving their primaries ahead of Feb. 5 and stripped them of all their delegates.

Clinton won Florida and Michigan, although she was the only major candidate on the ballot in Michigan.

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean told CNN Thursday that he was in Florida Wednesday and has been calling members of the congressional delegation to encourage them to cooperate. He said he'd like to find a way to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates and not leave the issue until the convention.

"When you change the rules in the middle of the game, which is what's being proposed here, you've got to do it in a way that both campaigns agree is fair," he said. "The best option is whatever we can get the candidates to agree with, which puts a vote back in the hands of the people of Florida and Michigan. And that's going to be not so easy to do."

All nine Democratic House members from Florida oppose the idea, including Clinton backers.

Obama told reporters traveling on his campaign plan Thursday that although he has concerns about mail-in voting, "we're going to abide by whatever the DNC decides."

"We're not gonna make the final decision on it, and I'll abide by whatever rules the DNC lays out," he said.

The Clinton campaign made it clear that it strongly prefers a state-run primary to mail-in voting during a meeting with Michigan Democrats Thursday, according to a campaign official speaking anonymously about the private talks. People involved in the private meeting said the Clinton advisers favor the state-run primary because there would be less likelihood of problems such as fraud and ballot counting than with a mail-in vote.

Four Michigan Democratic leaders uncommitted to either candidate discussed options for a do-over Thursday with both the Clinton and Obama campaign leaders. Democratic National Committee member Debbie Dingell, Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, Sen. Carl Levin and United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger are in that group trying to develop a new plan with input from both sides.

___

Associated Press Writers Nedra Pickler and Charles Babington in Washington contributed to this report.
 

QuantumSlip

Member
Nov 30, 2001
136
0
0
Possible plan for seating FL/MI Discussed

Personally (as an Obama supporter) I would encourage him to take this deal. Even though it nets delegates for Hillary, it would allow us to move on from this mess and focus more importantly on the issues at hand. With his lead I would not see this plan as an issue. Better than seating MI as-is (which IMO is not a smart thing to do.)
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: QuantumSlip
Possible plan for seating FL/MI Discussed

Personally (as an Obama supporter) I would encourage him to take this deal. Even though it nets delegates for Hillary, it would allow us to move on from this mess and focus more importantly on the issues at hand. With his lead I would not see this plan as an issue. Better than seating MI as-is (which IMO is not a smart thing to do.)

Hmmmm.. I'm inclined to agree with you. Net loss of 19 elected delegates, he can afford it.

Plus, in the back of all reasonable peoples' mind, they'll know the 19 delegates are "tainted".

In fact, I'd consider coming out quickly for it to put pressure on Hillary if I were Obama. I don't think she'd want to do it. The phrasing of the "accceptance" would be very important.

OTOH, I think Hillary is looking like a desperate loon in arguing these two states. I'm pretty sure I saw her say with a straight face last night that the FL & MI votes were fair and ought to stand as they are. That's just freakin crazy talk.

Fern
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
the half-count is really what Dean should have done in the first place.

after this clusterfuck, I've really got to wonder what his political future is looking like after November... if (when) the democrats win big, will it be because or in spite of his actions?
 

GoingUp

Lifer
Jul 31, 2002
16,720
1
71
It sounds like a good idea, till Obama accepts it, and then Hillary cheats her way to winning by the votes of 3 more superdelegates.
 
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