The Intel Atom Thread

[jpiniero]

In wich review of an actual product can we find thoses BT numbers.?.:sneaky:

Actualy nowhere...

I had to look it up... the release is next week. You'll have to wait until then.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Baytrail for tablets is never a 7W TDP SoC. The highest tablet SoC is Tegra 4 (A15) with 5W and even this is maybe to high.

Bay Trail, running Cinebench in Windows 8.1, never exceeded 2.5W at the SoC level.

I think the AMD die-hards just can't accept that on a shoe-string budget, and with the majority of its talent poached by Apple and Samsung, things aren't going to get any better. People can talk up Jim Keller and Raja Koduri all day, but it's not going to make one damn bit of difference; there are very smart people working at every company. In addition to quality project managers, budget is important, institutional knowledge is important, and the current base of IP and designs from which to build off of is important. Oh, and let's not forget process technology. AMD is behind in every conceivable way except maybe in graphics, but that advantage will soon be eroded. With Intel minting $$ whenever it releases a higher tier GPU SKU that it can upsell and with a real need to compete in phones/tablets, you can bet they're going to throw plenty of money into the build-a-GPU fund.

I wonder how long it is before its GPU team is gutted by a company that needs to build its own GPU...*cough* Apple *cough*. http://semiaccurate.com/2013/01/02/apples-silicon-design-capabilities-increase/

Ok, I do know what is, and it was done quietly and in the shadows with few outside of the new hires getting wind. In fact, the simple news that these people are now at Apple are not known outside of a trusted few, SemiAccurate can’t find a single reference to them anywhere, public or private. And now they fill a massive gap in Apple’s silicon capabilities.

What did Apple just grab? Would you believe a full blown GPU design team, one of the best in the world? If so, let me tell you the tale of one of the ex-ATI, ex-AMD GPU teams that are now calling Cupertino home. About 1-2 months ago, a team at AMD responsible for some of the most difficult portions of the GPU, up and quit. Radio silence followed, and we did look for where they went. Teams leaving, if not simultaneously, over a very short time span usually say something, and that part we heard.

 

[Erenhardt]

LoL @ this thread. I left somewhere at page 10. 30 pages later the same thing...

Bay Trail, running Cinebench in Windows 8.1, never exceeded 2.5W at the SoC level.

Thank you, can you say what tools have you used to measure the 2,5Watts?

 

[Arachnotronic]

LoL @ this thread. I left somewhere at page 10. 30 pages later the same thing...



Thank you, can you say what tools have you used to measure the 2,5Watts?

I didn't measure it personally - the power engineers at Intel did the measuring while all of the press/analysts watched. I think Anand missed the original session, too, so I was there when Intel did a separate demo for him (and he asked Intel to run a wide variety of workloads beyond what they initially showed the press/analysts).

The power story for Silvermont is great.

 

[blackened23]

I didn't measure it personally - the power engineers at Intel did the measuring while all of the press/analysts watched. I think Anand missed the original session, too, so I was there when Intel did a separate demo for him (and he asked Intel to run a wide variety of workloads beyond what they initially showed the press/analysts).

The power story for Silvermont is great.

Indeed. If Bay Trail sucked in terms of power draw, OEMs wouldn't release tablets based on it. The fact that Bay Trail is being put into 7 and 9 inch tablet SKUs with 10+ hours of battery life, while Temash isn't, speaks volumes. I can appreciate Temash for what it is, but some here would like to characterize Temash as being suitable for 7 to 9 inch tablets which have specific power requirements. OEMs are having none of it. I have seen 3-4 laptops with it, and that is it. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I think it's a great chip for that niche - for convertible and laptops with pretty good perf/dollar. That's great. I don't think it is suitable for tablets, though, because OEMs aren't using it for that. OEMs know more than we do, ultimately - Bay Trail is just a better, more balanced chip specifically for the super small tablet form factors.

Maybe, just maybe, OEMs know what's going on. I suspect that some will pin it on some type of conspiracy, though.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Indeed. If Bay Trail sucked in terms of power draw, OEMs wouldn't release tablets based on it. The fact that Bay Trail is being put into 7 and 9 inch tablet SKUs with 10+ hours of battery life, while Temash isn't, speaks volumes. I can appreciate Temash for what it is, but some here would like to characterize Temash as being suitable for 7 to 9 inch tablets which have specific power requirements. OEMs are having none of it. I have seen 3-4 laptops with it, and that is it. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I think it's a great chip for that niche - for convertible and laptops with pretty good perf/dollar. That's great. I don't think it is suitable for tablets, though, because OEMs aren't using it for that. OEMs know more than we do, ultimately - Bay Trail is just a better, more balanced chip specifically for the super small tablet form factors.

Maybe, just maybe, OEMs know what's going on. I suspect that some will pin it on some type of conspiracy, though.

It's amazing how many people think nobody is using Temash because of some Intel-led conspiracy. Did it ever occur to people that Temash just isn't great as a tablet chip?

 

[sequoia464]

It's amazing how many people think nobody is using Temash because of some Intel-led conspiracy. Did it ever occur to people that Temash just isn't great as a tablet chip?

I have only been loosely following this thread, and my knowledge and understanding of all things CPU related is marginal at best - is it mostly power draw that hinders Temash, or is the CPU not as powerful as bay trail as well?

If I remember correctly from some months back, Temash was looking promising for tablets- looks like that didn't exactly pan out?

Currently using a Clovertrail tablet - looking forward to Baytrail with higher screen resolution. My current 1280x800 is passable until I compare it to the 1920x1280 of another tablet that I use more often these days, simply because of the screen - even though I prefer W8 to Android.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I have only been loosely following this thread, and my knowledge and understanding of all things CPU related is marginal at best - is it mostly power draw that hinders Temash, or is the CPU not as powerful as bay trail as well?

If I remember correctly from some months back, Temash was looking promising for tablets- looks like that didn't exactly pan out?

Currently using a Clovertrail tablet - looking forward to Baytrail with higher screen resolution. My current 1280x800 is passable until I compare it to the 1920x1280 of another tablet that I use more often these days, simply because of the screen - even though I prefer W8 to Android.

Temash's CPU is woefully underpowered. 2x Jaguar cores @ 1GHz is really no match for 4x Silvermont cores at up to 2.4GHz.

 

[CHADBOGA]

I have only been loosely following this thread, and my knowledge and understanding of all things CPU related is marginal at best - is it mostly power draw that hinders Temash, or is the CPU not as powerful as bay trail as well?

If I remember correctly from some months back, Temash was looking promising for tablets- looks like that didn't exactly pan out?

Because of Temash's power draw, they have to run it at much slower speeds than they would ideally like, thus hurting performance of both its CPU & GPU.

 

[Shivansps]

Im not even sure if dual core Temash is better on igp either at this point. The problem with Temash is clear, less cpu performance, more power and we are not sure about igp or cost.

On my personal opinion i dont think anyone will use Temash or Kabini now, where BT stops, Haswell Celerons starts, what also allow the OEM to offer better CPU configurations.
Kabini vs Haswell Celeron ULVs, now thats a review ill like to see.

 

[Nothingness]

I didn't measure it personally - the power engineers at Intel did the measuring while all of the press/analysts watched. I think Anand missed the original session, too, so I was there when Intel did a separate demo for him (and he asked Intel to run a wide variety of workloads beyond what they initially showed the press/analysts).

The power story for Silvermont is great.

But not much greater than similar ARM SoC if we are to believe OEM claims about battery life. I don't care what Intel claim or if they cheated or were honest. I want to know what consumer device battery life is, the rest is useless to me as a user.

 

[cbn]

Kabini vs Haswell Celeron ULVs, now thats a review ill like to see.

+1.

.....Also the Celeron 847 which is still shipping in many products.

 

[sequoia464]

Temash's CPU is woefully underpowered. 2x Jaguar cores @ 1GHz is really no match for 4x Silvermont cores at up to 2.4GHz.

Because of Temash's power draw, they have to run it at much slower speeds than they would ideally like, thus hurting performance of both its CPU & GPU.

Thanks.

 

[liahos1]

But not much greater than similar ARM SoC if we are to believe OEM claims about battery life. I don't care what Intel claim or if they cheated or were honest. I want to know what consumer device battery life is, the rest is useless to me as a user.

you should care though given an SOC is typically half a total tablet/phone TDP. Don't tegra 4/s800 tdp's reach (at load) ~5W-6W? If thats the case the z3770 seems to be a pretty interesting little chip.

 

[Sweepr]

Some new benchies here: http://www.journaldugeek.com/2013/10/11/intel-atom-bay-trail-bench

 

[Abwx]

Some new benchies here: http://www.journaldugeek.com/2013/10/11/intel-atom-bay-trail-bench

Nothing new , the bench were made under intel control ,
they didnt get tablets elsewhere than in an intel desk....

And of course no power comsumption number , actualy
this is not an important parameter , moreover when
it s mobile devices....

 

[Sweepr]

In a few days there will be plenty of Bay Trail-T Windows 8.1 tablets to compare performance and power numbers, I wish we could say the same about Temash tablets. Android-based BT-T devices will probably launch a bit later.

 

[cbn]

In a few days there will be plenty of Bay Trail-T Windows 8.1 tablets to compare performance and power numbers, I wish we could say the same about Temash tablets. Android-based BT-T devices will probably launch a bit later.

I really hope we'll also see some reviews (from some website) comparing Atom Z3680D to ARM on Ubuntu. I think finding out how well Intel performs against ARM on the traditional non-cloud keyboard and mouse/trackpad apps would be very informative.

P.S. I am not sure how cheap Z3680D will be priced, but I think a comparison against Rockchip RK3188 or the upcoming RK32xx would be good to see.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Nothing new , the bench were made under intel control ,
they didnt get tablets elsewhere than in an intel desk....

And of course no power comsumption number , actualy
this is not an important parameter , moreover when
it s mobile devices....

I saw the power measured with very sophisticated equipment myself. This chip ran Cinebench and scored ~1.47 while never exceeding 2.5W.

Bury your head under the sand all you'd like and pray for AMD to make a glorious return, but it's not happening this generation. Intel is hell-bent on taking this market, and AMD will end up simply being collateral damage in the fight between Intel and Qualcomm.

 

[cbn]

Intel 17,

You mentioned Intel vs. Qualcomm.....that definitely makes sense for the top of the ARM food chain (besides Apple)

But what is your opinion on Intel vs. Rockchip?

http://www.geekbuying.com/category/HDD-Player-505/

As you can see from the above list of HDMI stick and mini-boxes Rockchip RK3066 (40nm dual core A9) /RK3188 (28nm quad core A9) currently occupies 78% of the products sold at that particular website (which I believe is fairly representative of the market as a whole.)

If this trend continues we will probably see the upcoming Rockchip Rk32xx (quad core cortex A12) occupy the same kind of percentage.

P.S. Although not as prominent as the touch interface Android tablets/phones , those Rockchip powered devices are genuine lowest common denominator keyboard and mouse/trackpad powered desktops. Some of which are currently being ported to Ubuntu.

 

[blackened23]

Nothing new , the bench were made under intel control ,
they didnt get tablets elsewhere than in an intel desk....

And of course no power comsumption number , actualy
this is not an important parameter , moreover when
it s mobile devices....

Really dude? REALLY? If BT is making it into tablet form factors, the power consumption is appropriate for that form factor. Period. If it weren't appropriate, you would not see it in 7 inch tablets with 10+ hours of battery life. The SKU sold is fully ready for a tablet at the specified clockspeeds as published by intel, it does not have be "handicapped" as some certain other chip would require to make it into a tablet. It is not a laptop chip that has to be gimped beyond belief and still not be appropriate for tablets as is the Temash. Like I said Temash is a great chip for budget laptops (and not tablets), I can certainly appreciate that. But at some point you just have to admit, maybe, just maybe, it isn't as good for razor thin tablet form factors. At least, that is what OEMs seem to think, and they know way more than we do.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Temash's CPU is woefully underpowered. 2x Jaguar cores @ 1GHz is really no match for 4x Silvermont cores at up to 2.4GHz.

I dont know how the new atom will turn out, but the problem with Temesh is not so much that the perfromance is low, but that the battery life is not outstanding either. I could more easily accept the cpu performance if the battery life were exceptional, but at least in most formfactors so far it has not been.

 

[Abwx]

If it weren't appropriate, you would not see it in 7 inch tablets with 10+ hours of battery life.

I m questioning Intel s marketing that seems to work
to the point that some people dont realize that 10 hours
battery life with a 25-30WH battery is not compatible with
this kind of belief :

Uh, I'm telling you, dude...I was there. Saw the power measured with very sophisticated equipment myself. This chip ran Cinebench and scored ~1.47 while never exceeding 2.5W.

If only 2.5W would be needed to run CB at 2.2GHz
wih all four cores , as was the case in Intel s controlled
'reviews" , then the battery life should be well over 10h
for trivial usages..

We ll see in a few days , get ready for some serious
backpedaling or subject deviations once real numbers
get published...

 

[monstercameron]

I dont know how the new atom will turn out, but the problem with Temesh is not so much that the perfromance is low, but that the battery life is not outstanding either. I could more easily accept the cpu performance if the battery life were exceptional, but at least in most formfactors so far it has not been.

the temash apu isnt that bad a power suck but definitely isnt the best.

tegra 4 with 25WHr battery and 2h34m runtime equates to ~9.75W power high load and ~4.4W under light load [including platform power]. Also for an ice storm score of [total, graphics, physics] 10400, 10200, 11600 [NB: the icestorm numbers seem low compared to the shield but I found a similar result here http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/tablets/hp-slatebook-x2.aspx ]
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-HP-SlateBook-x2-10-h010nr-Tablet.103282.0.html


a6-1450 with 30WHr battery and 1h53m runtime equates to ~16W power high load and ~9.6W under light load [including platform power]. Also for an ice storm score of [total, graphics, physics] 18211, 21788, 17100[no result on notebookcheck]
[crap acer netbook] http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Acer-Aspire-V5-122P-61454G50NSS-Notebook.93321.0.html
[3dmark score] http://www.3dmark.com/is/803292

just replace the a6-1450 with the a4-1350 and save some power[lack of cpu&gpu turbo]...

 

[ninaholic37]

If only 2.5W would be needed to run CB at 2.2GHz
wih all four cores , as was the case in Intel s controlled
'reviews" , then the battery life should be well over 10h
for trivial usages..

We ll see in a few days , get ready for some serious
backpedaling or subject deviations once real numbers
get published...

Isn't Z3470 the one going in most tablets? Why don't they all just pay the $5 extra and throw in the Z3770 instead? Maybe power consumption / heat / battery life does has something to do with it after all ... ??? :hmm:

*cues twilight zone music*