The Intel Atom Thread

[Khato]

You re looking too much at the PR side of thing and i m not interestedby marketing related material

Yet as far as I can tell you're basically quoting FDSOI consortium marketing material as your reference for estimating Intel's costs.

actualy you re understimating thousands
of scientists and engineers that have full understanding of processes
and subsequent devices caracteristics as well as manufacturing tools
requirements , it s not like intel is manufacturing their own lithography
machinery , they have the same supplier , why would it cost them
less if ever they went a triple patterning route.?.
Do you think that ASML will give them a supplement for free.?.

How am I underestimating anything? Sure Intel's process engineers have a full understanding of Intel's processes, subsequent device characteristics, and the manufacturing tools required for such. But are you trying to say that there are thousands of other scientists and engineers that know all that too? I'd sure hope not. I'd expect that you're just advocating that they can make an informed estimate regarding Intel's process costs based on what little public information there is... which can easily be anywhere from right on the mark to off by a factor or two or more depending upon their assumptions. And given that those scientists and engineers making the estimate you're quoting are on the FDSOI consortium's pay roll, well, take a guess at what kind of assumptions they're going to make.

Edit:

I keep the discussion at a level wich can be understood by anybody.

Why exactly? Many times a technical explanation is necessary and failing to provide one is a disservice to everyone taking part in the discussion. Not to mention it gives us a chance to correct misunderstandings.

 

[Abwx]

But are you trying to say that there are thousands of other scientists and engineers that know all that too?

There s a saying in the arabic world that say that
the brother of an arab is himself an arab , meaning
that what a man can find another man can find
it as well....

They know , only money is lacking.

Intel can pump yearly as much money in machinery than
the full yearly revenue of average foundries , that s what
make the difference.

 

[monstercameron]

HD 4600 and llano are quite close and back when llano debuted you would never have expected intel to make such a massive jump. If we see another HD 3000 -4000 like jump on the 14 nm node shrink trinity/richland level performance is certainty possible.



Trinity is not two years old. Mobile was released well before desktop which was released just over a year ago.



http://www.anandtech.com/show/7106/...t-1-the-apu-and-radeon-hd-8650g-performance/3

The a10-5750m is significantly faster than the 15w haswell i7 at playable settings. Considering how tdp limited haswell ULT is, at 35 watts haswell is going to put up quite a fight. The 28 watt iris 5100 model is probably quite a bit better better.

And its no one but AMD's fault that they don't sell 45w cpus. No direction in this company. You would think they would sell mobile CPUs with a higher tdp considering how tdp limited their designs are and how easily a larger notebook can cool a 45 watt cpu.

i agree that they have no 45W sku in a mobile package but there is the a10-6700t...

 

[Khato]

There s a saying in the arabic world that say that
the brother of an arab is himself an arab , meaning
that what a man can found another man can found
it as well....

They know , only money is lacking.

And I do believe that's the point where I'll admit that it's useless for me to try and convince you otherwise. Because anyone familiar with the industry knows that two separate teams with the exact same funding and goals won't arrive at the same solution.

 

[monstercameron]

question? what is stopping intel from releasing a dualcore baytrail sku for phones if the dynamic power consumption is so low? why wait on merrifield -besides radio integration probably- or better yet, why the delay?

 

[SlimFan]

question? what is stopping intel from releasing a dualcore baytrail sku for phones if the dynamic power consumption is so low? why wait on merrifield -besides radio integration probably- or better yet, why the delay?

Are you suggesting that the only difference between a phone SOC and a Windows 8 SOC is the core count? Or that the CPU is the only relevant IP on the die?

 

[monstercameron]

Are you suggesting that the only difference between a phone SOC and a Windows 8 SOC is the core count? Or that the CPU is the only relevant IP on the die?

are you suggesting that the baytrail and merrifield wont pretty much use most the same uncore and manu process barring radio integration?

I for one am uncertain of the differences between baytrail and merrifield, besides the radios...

 

[Phynaz]

Dare to give your own estimations.??..

If i m wrong tell us by how much.

I have no idea. And neither do you.

 

[Phynaz]

Besides using a share holder position to get lower prices
from a corporate is simply illegal

Actually, it's not in the US.

 

[Arachnotronic]

question? what is stopping intel from releasing a dualcore baytrail sku for phones if the dynamic power consumption is so low? why wait on merrifield -besides radio integration probably- or better yet, why the delay?

Merrifield will have a variant of ImgTec's "Rogue", and it will probably have 2 CPU cores and focus much more on GPU performance than Bay Trail does, which needed to have good enough CPU performance for Windows PCs and utilize Gen 7 GPU so that Intel didn't need to write a Windows driver for an ImgTec GPU.

 

[blackened23]

And I do believe that's the point where I'll admit that it's useless for me to try and convince you otherwise. Because anyone familiar with the industry knows that two separate teams with the exact same funding and goals won't arrive at the same solution.

Apparently, we're in some sort of alternate universe where we're supposed to sympathize with a corporations money situation. All I care about is the end product. If an end product is better with xyz company, I will buy xyz's product, generally speaking. I will not buy ABC product out of pity if it is substantially worse.

 

[Abwx]

Actually, it's not in the US.

ASML is an european firm , from Netherland precisely ,
and here the rules are less sloppy than in the US.

 

[Abwx]

And I do believe that's the point where I'll admit that it's useless for me to try and convince you otherwise. Because anyone familiar with the industry knows that two separate teams with the exact same funding and goals won't arrive at the same solution.

We re at a point where everybody not only use the same
manufacturing tools but also the same CAD softs when designing
transistors geometries and computing their caracteristics.

Law of physics are the same for anybody and semiconductors
behaviour in respect of processes is modeled for a long time ago ,
actualy the only difference is money , to give an exemple just
imagine that the 14nm Broadwell chips recently displayed by Intel
did cost something like 200.000-300.000$ EACH , that s the cost
of risk production in non mature processes with very low quantities.

 

[Abwx]

I have no idea. And neither do you.

Being ignorant of one thing is quite a mediocre argument
when denying someone s eventual knowledge.

Actualy you know nothing about enginering and i think
that you are not competent enough for me to have
a valuable discussion with you , keep resorting to your usual
straws , at least in this matter you are quite good....

 

[monstercameron]

Merrifield will have a variant of ImgTec's "Rogue", and it will probably have 2 CPU cores and focus much more on GPU performance than Bay Trail does, which needed to have good enough CPU performance for Windows PCs and utilize Gen 7 GPU so that Intel didn't need to write a Windows driver for an ImgTec GPU.

oh, seems that i need to do my own research, so i am guessing that the delay is that it wont eat into medfield/ct+ sales?

aside pvr rouge seem pretty potent!

 

[Shivansps]

I thought the delay was because of the integrated LTE.


Seriusly, the OEMs know what to do, just ask yourselft why Temash and Kabini have so little interest compared to the E-350 launch, im not talking only about tablets and why even in the golden years of bobcat they keep using Atoms and no C-50, C-30 on the lower end devices.

 

[blackened23]

Being ignorant of one thing is quite a mediocre argument
when denying someone s eventual knowledge.

Actualy you know nothing about enginering and i think
that you are not competent enough for me to have
a valuable discussion with you , keep resorting to your usual
straws , at least in this matter you are quite good....

Wait wait wait. Are you saying that YOU'RE an engineer? That's the only conclusion I can make based on your rude comment to Phynaz. Heck, if you're saying that phynaz isn't competent based on not being an engineer - you sure as heck BETTER be an engineer. So are you? It went from, intel compiler cheats, to TDP conspiracies, to intel's "viral marketing" By the way, phynaz' point was that you keep pulling estimated numbers out of thin air that have no basis in reality. I agree with him.

 

[blackened23]

I thought the delay was because of the integrated LTE.

Indeed, that was the impression I had as well. Intel was working on an in house Advanced LTE design, it was demonstrated at IDF.

 

[monstercameron]

isnt time-to-market a huge deal in the crowded mobile space? why would they just release it with their current 3g modem then ship with the updated 4g modem sku later?

 

[Abwx]

Wait wait wait. Are you saying that YOU'RE an engineer? That's the only conclusion I can make based on your rude comment to Phynaz. Heck, if you're saying that phynaz isn't competent based on not being an engineer - you sure as heck BETTER be an engineer. So are you? It went from, intel compiler cheats, to TDP conspiracies, to intel's "viral marketing" By the way, phynaz' point was that you keep pulling estimated numbers out of thin air that have no basis in reality. I agree with him.

Phynaz has surely his own domain of competence in wich he s
certainly quite professional but this domain is definitly not
electronic system design , an area where i got a formal training.

Myself i wouldnt deny his sayings if they were related
to his core business but if he wants to confront me
on semiconductors theory he has to find a valuably
better argument than saying that the fact that he s
ignorant of the matter will forcibly make me ignorant
as well of said matter.

Seriously , is that an argument ?

I have no idea. And neither do you.

Edit : You can agree with him all the way ,
it wont change the fact that i got
my infos from technical docs not
marketing slides.

 

[blackened23]

So you're not an engineer and you get all of your information from marketing slides. Phynaz isn't competent because he's not an engineer (your words), but you're competent despite not being an engineer. Makes perfect sense!

 

[Abwx]

So you're not an engineer and you get all of your information from marketing slides. Phynaz isn't competent because he's not an engineer (your words), but you're competent despite not being an engineer. Makes perfect sense!

You dont bother creating straws and even distorting
my sayings.

I said that i have a formal training wich means that
i got to university get my degrees among others
in EE enginering.

As said i got my info not from slides but from tech docs
that wouldnt be understood by there but if you wants
to grasp the thing here a link for you , just find
a translator.

http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/63/12/46/PDF/thA_se_avec_perspectives_3.pdf

 

[Sweepr]

Interesting:

Meet Intel’s hardware level Siri-killer

Intel’s updated Smart Sound Technology DSP found in 2014′s Broadwell promises to outsmart Siri in every way possible. The catch? It’s already partially here in some Bay Trail configurations...

http://vr-zone.com/articles/meet-intels-hardware-level-siri-killer/60323.html

 

[monstercameron]

Interesting:

Meet Intel’s hardware level Siri-killer

Intel’s updated Smart Sound Technology DSP found in 2014′s Broadwell promises to outsmart Siri in every way possible. The catch? It’s already partially here in some Bay Trail configurations...

http://vr-zone.com/articles/meet-intels-hardware-level-siri-killer/60323.html

does the onboard dsp matter? isnt siri's backend on apple remote servers?

 

[Khato]

We re at a point where everybody not only use the same
manufacturing tools but also the same CAD softs when designing
transistors geometries and computing their caracteristics.

While it's unfortunately continuing the off-topic trends in this thread... To substantiate your claim that everyone uses the same CAD software why don't you tell me what Intel uses?