The new all electric cars

thescreensavers

Diamond Member
Aug 3, 2005
9,916
2
81
I got a question for you guys,

With all this talk about these all electric cars Tesla, BMW..ect they talk about how fast it is to charge, or how fast it can go but don't say what the life expectancy of the batteries. Especially the Tesla were huge amounts of power is being drawn from the battery's when you accelerate fully. Plus the cost to replace the batteries.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,284
138
106
It depends on the battery technology used. If they are using Li-Ion batteries, then their half-life is around 2 years. If you are talking about NiMH I don't know what their half-life is, but they suffer from memory problems that can destroy their usefulness.
 

thescreensavers

Diamond Member
Aug 3, 2005
9,916
2
81
ah so its NiMH battery's that have the memory issues, I was under the impression that all battery's are like this. But isn't there also something like with this Li-Ion?
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
Originally posted by: thescreensavers
ah so its NiMH battery's that have the memory issues, I was under the impression that all battery's are like this. But isn't there also something like with this Li-Ion?

I don't know about memory issues but Li-Ion and Li-Poly can be sensitive to deep discharging and constant overcharging. But all this means is that you need to pay a little more extra attention to the charging circuitry.
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
Originally posted by: Born2bwire
Originally posted by: thescreensavers
ah so its NiMH battery's that have the memory issues, I was under the impression that all battery's are like this. But isn't there also something like with this Li-Ion?

I don't know about memory issues but Li-Ion and Li-Poly can be sensitive to deep discharging and constant overcharging. But all this means is that you need to pay a little more extra attention to the charging circuitry.

Li-ion or -poly cells have no memory effect and charging is very simple (maximum current, maximum float voltage, cutoff current).

To increase life span of Li-po cells in cars, they are only charged to some fraction of their capacity (about 80%) and discharged to some smaller fraction (30%).

Most of the loss in cell lifespan comes when they are fully charged (>4.2V) or deeply discharged (<3V).

Anyway, GM is assuming one replacement of the battery during the 10-year warranty period in their cost analysis which is supposedly conservative: http://blogs.cars.com/kickingt...9/gm-exec-volt-ba.html
 

Comdrpopnfresh

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2006
1,202
2
81
Any battery will lose charging capacity over time for various reasons. 'Memory' issues are supposed to be non-existent on Li-ion batteries, but their high density vs nimh and the quicker charge times leads to deformation of the cells over time- mainly because of heat and pressure during charge/discharge cycles- this is why Li-ion batteries last longer when a charge/discharge cycle is broken into many period rather than fully drain + charge

If electric vehicle adoption increases, this factor will be smaller. Some countries, Australia I believe is one, are setting up highway systems where you can swap out a discharged battery for a charged on to increase your range. Plus, maintenance on electric vehicles doesn't include oil and filters... so if battery life increases and prices decrease, it'll become a winning point for electric vehicles.
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
Originally posted by: Comdrpopnfresh
Any battery will lose charging capacity over time for various reasons. 'Memory' issues are supposed to be non-existent on Li-ion batteries, but their high density vs nimh and the quicker charge times leads to deformation of the cells over time- mainly because of heat and pressure during charge/discharge cycles- this is why Li-ion batteries last longer when a charge/discharge cycle is broken into many period rather than fully drain + charge

If electric vehicle adoption increases, this factor will be smaller. Some countries, Australia I believe is one, are setting up highway systems where you can swap out a discharged battery for a charged on to increase your range. Plus, maintenance on electric vehicles doesn't include oil and filters... so if battery life increases and prices decrease, it'll become a winning point for electric vehicles.

Li-ion cells do not heat during charge or discharge: their efficiency is ~99.99% with internal resistance in the tens of milliohms for even small cells. Perhaps in newer supercharging methods (15 minute charges?) but in normal situations I disagree. Their failure has to do with the internal chemistry breaking down mostly as a function of time and heat.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
16
81
Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
It is Nickel-cadmium batteries which have memory effects not NiMH batteries.
The memory effect is more an artefact of poor state-of-charge management systems with Nickel batteries of both chemistries, than the battery itself. Neither battery system shows a genuine loss of capacity when affected by 'memory' - but the properties of the battery are changed meaning that much of the capacity lies below the shut-down limit.

Where a sophisticated charge management system is available (e.g. industrial UPSs, space craft) the problem can be worked around.

With regards to the original question - the new electric cars using Li cells are not intended to use conventional Li-ion or Li-polymer cells, rather one of 2 new technologies: Li nano-phosphate (made by A123) or Li nano-titanate (made by Altair nano and toshiba). Both technologies dramatically improve the life-span of the batteries - Altair have tested battery packs to 12000 deep discharge/rapid charge (5 minute) cycles with negligible capacity loss. The phosphate cells show similar dramatic improvements, though the quoted numbers aren't quite as impressive.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Lithium iron phosphate cells (not A123 specific, IIRC) are rated up to 10,000 cycles.

That said, lithium ion cells are rated for around 1,000 cycles....but I'm down to 1/3 capacity after less than 300.

Those Altair cells sound obscenely excellent. A 5-minute charge time would make any laptop much more practical, and not having to replace the !@#$ battery every !@#$ year would be !@#$ excellent!
 

Jedi2155

Member
Sep 16, 2003
47
0
0
Is it possible for you to elaborate more on the internal chemistry breaking down?

How is time involved in the breakdown of the internal chemistry? I've always understood heat but never understood the time portion of it.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
Is it possible for you to elaborate more on the internal chemistry breaking down?

How is time involved in the breakdown of the internal chemistry? I've always understood heat but never understood the time portion of it.

The problem with lithium ion cells that use a cathode based on cobalt (LiCoO2) is that they oxidize over time. So no matter how careful you are, they will lose capacity over time from the moment they leave the factory. I built my own electric vehicle (electric motorcycle) using lithium cobalt batteries, and I've lost about 40% capacity over 2.4 years and this was while I was babying them. Cobalt-cathode lithium ion and lithium polymer rechargeable are the ones used in most consumer electronics applications (laptops, cell phones, MP3 players, etc).

There's a discussion of this on Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...onal_Li-ion_technology

As Bobsmith mentioned, to maximize the life of lithium cobalt (ie. laptop batteries) and lithium polymer batteries (ie. iPod batteries), you want to keep them about 50% state of charge or as close to 50% charged as possible (so when you use them charge to 70%, discharge to 30%). You want to keep them cool at all times - storage around 30F/-1C works well and you want to avoid deep discharges or high current output (eg. >5C, although this depends on the chemistry).

As was mentioned the problem of "memory" in nickel batteries is not really a problem with the batteries, but rather with the charging systems. A good charger can cycle out the "memory effect" (http://www.duracell.com/oem/re...le/Nickel/voltdep.asp). Since the car manufacturers have any quality battery engineers involved in the design of their battery systems, memory effects on NiCd/NiMH in automotive applications is not an issue. In fact, if battery manufacturers use more expensive components in their rechargeable NiMH battery chargers, home users shouldn't see the "memory" effect either.

Lithium ion (LiCoO2), lithium polymer and lithium ion phosphate and actually most other battery major rechargeable chemistries (like lead-acid) use a constant currrent style charging system that basically charges at a fixed current until a voltage is reached and then taper off the current to hold at that voltage and then when the current reaches a low-enough rate, they cut off.

With lithium ion(LiCoO2) you want to be very careful not to each the maximum voltage (else they can explode), you also don't want to discharge them below their minimum voltage (else they explode, or if you are lucky, they stop working), you want to avoid getting them too hot (else they explode), or charging at too high a rate (this reduces the longevity of the battery, and causes heat... which could lead to explosion).

A newer chemistry called lithium ion iron-phosphate (LiFePo) doesn't have any of these explosion issues, and oxidizes very slowly - in fact it's more robust and safer to use than NiMH (which can vent hydrogen at high temperatures), but presently it's energy capacity per weight is closer to NiMH than it is to traditional LiCoO2. An even newer chemistry - as mentioned by MarkR - is lithium ion titanate (LiTiO3), but it's not in high volume manufacturing yet.

The high-volume mainstream plug-in electric hybrid cars scheduled for release in ~2010 seem to be falling into two main chemistries: NiMH (Toyota Prius, among others), and LiFePo (Chevy Volt, Saturn Vue, among others). Since LiFePo doesn't have a huge advantage in terms of energy capacity per weight over NiMH, it's biggest advantages lie in it's temperature range and it's tolerance of high discharge current. But the advantage of NiMH over LiFePo is that NiMH's characteristics are extremely well understood and NiMH manufacturing is less complex. One huge advantage LiFePo has over NiMH, however, is that the patents for automative applications of LiFePo batteries are not controlled by an oil company - Chevron - like NiMH automotive batteries are and so broad licensing of the patents involves makes LiFePo development easier.
 

Jedi2155

Member
Sep 16, 2003
47
0
0
Thank you for the great reply. I was particularly interested in the oxidation part of the lithium battery cells as that is what Battery University was probably referring to in the 3 year shelf-life of the lithium cobalt oxide batteries. I did not realize the LiPOFe4 batteries had a significantly lower oxidation rate.

Does Chevron control all NiMH patents or just some of them? How is it that Panasonic is able to use NiMH batteries for the Prius otherwise unless their NiMH chemistry is significantly different...or did Chevron only bar its use from full EVs?

AltairNano's titanate batteries seem interesting but their gravimetric density is sadly lacking .
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Nickel-iron batteries last the longest. Some antique electric cars still have their original batteries.
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Nickel-iron batteries last the longest. Some antique electric cars still have their original batteries.

I just looked up Nickel-Iron in my "battery bible..." I would have thought it would have low specific energy since nickel and iron are so heavy but it's not too bad in comparison; 314WH/kg.

It's a bit of an older book (last updated 2002) so it may not have the latest, but it shows 360-400Wh/kg for lithium-based secondary cells as a comparison.

Interestingly enough, aluminum-air cells have a theoretical specific energy of 8135Wh/kg! However it seems they have to be fed chips or pellets of aluminum; recharging doesn't work too well... apparently the aluminum oxidizes, releasing hydrogen and generating electricity. Unless there were a way to un-oxidize the aluminum, you end up with... rusted aluminum and lots of hydrogen gas. Perhaps that could go to a hydrogen fuel cell? We'd be back to the coal-fired engine days - shovel another scoop of aluminum into the boiler!
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Nickel-iron batteries last the longest. Some antique electric cars still have their original batteries.

I just looked up Nickel-Iron in my "battery bible..." I would have thought it would have low specific energy since nickel and iron are so heavy but it's not too bad in comparison; 314WH/kg.

It's a bit of an older book (last updated 2002) so it may not have the latest, but it shows 360-400Wh/kg for lithium-based secondary cells as a comparison.

Interestingly enough, aluminum-air cells have a theoretical specific energy of 8135Wh/kg! However it seems they have to be fed chips or pellets of aluminum; recharging doesn't work too well... apparently the aluminum oxidizes, releasing hydrogen and generating electricity. Unless there were a way to un-oxidize the aluminum, you end up with... rusted aluminum and lots of hydrogen gas. Perhaps that could go to a hydrogen fuel cell? We'd be back to the coal-fired engine days - shovel another scoop of aluminum into the boiler!

There is a way to unoxidize (is that even a real word, I think the correct term is reduce, been years since I did chem) aluminum. This is needed to be done to process aluminum ore because it is almost always found in an oxidized state, but it is very energy intensive. This is due to the fact that you are basically going back and forth through the reaction of thermite, the oxidation of aluminum, which releases a large amount of energy. The energy expense of reducing aluminum is one of the reasons why recycling aluminum cans uses far less energy than processing a fresh batch of ore. It is so much more efficient that wikipedia (if it is to be believed) quotes that it takes around 5% of the energy to resmelt processed aluminum as opposed to the original ore.
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
Originally posted by: Born2bwire
Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Nickel-iron batteries last the longest. Some antique electric cars still have their original batteries.

I just looked up Nickel-Iron in my "battery bible..." I would have thought it would have low specific energy since nickel and iron are so heavy but it's not too bad in comparison; 314WH/kg.

It's a bit of an older book (last updated 2002) so it may not have the latest, but it shows 360-400Wh/kg for lithium-based secondary cells as a comparison.

Interestingly enough, aluminum-air cells have a theoretical specific energy of 8135Wh/kg! However it seems they have to be fed chips or pellets of aluminum; recharging doesn't work too well... apparently the aluminum oxidizes, releasing hydrogen and generating electricity. Unless there were a way to un-oxidize the aluminum, you end up with... rusted aluminum and lots of hydrogen gas. Perhaps that could go to a hydrogen fuel cell? We'd be back to the coal-fired engine days - shovel another scoop of aluminum into the boiler!

There is a way to unoxidize (is that even a real word, I think the correct term is reduce, been years since I did chem) aluminum. This is needed to be done to process aluminum ore because it is almost always found in an oxidized state, but it is very energy intensive. This is due to the fact that you are basically going back and forth through the reaction of thermite, the oxidation of aluminum, which releases a large amount of energy. The energy expense of reducing aluminum is one of the reasons why recycling aluminum cans uses far less energy than processing a fresh batch of ore. It is so much more efficient that wikipedia (if it is to be believed) quotes that it takes around 5% of the energy to resmelt processed aluminum as opposed to the original ore.

So, a closed-system aluminum-oxygen battery would be theoretically possible; recharging would consist of reducing the aluminum ("unoxidizing")... I wonder how complicated the process really is?
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
Originally posted by: Born2bwire
Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Nickel-iron batteries last the longest. Some antique electric cars still have their original batteries.

I just looked up Nickel-Iron in my "battery bible..." I would have thought it would have low specific energy since nickel and iron are so heavy but it's not too bad in comparison; 314WH/kg.

It's a bit of an older book (last updated 2002) so it may not have the latest, but it shows 360-400Wh/kg for lithium-based secondary cells as a comparison.

Interestingly enough, aluminum-air cells have a theoretical specific energy of 8135Wh/kg! However it seems they have to be fed chips or pellets of aluminum; recharging doesn't work too well... apparently the aluminum oxidizes, releasing hydrogen and generating electricity. Unless there were a way to un-oxidize the aluminum, you end up with... rusted aluminum and lots of hydrogen gas. Perhaps that could go to a hydrogen fuel cell? We'd be back to the coal-fired engine days - shovel another scoop of aluminum into the boiler!

There is a way to unoxidize (is that even a real word, I think the correct term is reduce, been years since I did chem) aluminum. This is needed to be done to process aluminum ore because it is almost always found in an oxidized state, but it is very energy intensive. This is due to the fact that you are basically going back and forth through the reaction of thermite, the oxidation of aluminum, which releases a large amount of energy. The energy expense of reducing aluminum is one of the reasons why recycling aluminum cans uses far less energy than processing a fresh batch of ore. It is so much more efficient that wikipedia (if it is to be believed) quotes that it takes around 5% of the energy to resmelt processed aluminum as opposed to the original ore.

So, a closed-system aluminum-oxygen battery would be theoretically possible; recharging would consist of reducing the aluminum ("unoxidizing")... I wonder how complicated the process really is?

Yeah I think it is theoretically possible. Processing the oxidized aluminum is probably pretty streamlined due to fact that it has to be done for the mined aluminum ore. I think though you are getting into the same area as hydrogen fueled vehicles. You still need a large amount of facilities to process the fuel (whether generating the hydrogen via electrolysis or reprocessing the spent aluminum) and build a new infrastructure to distribute the fuel. I think the only reason why you might use one over the other would be costs and energy density. Although hydrogen's ability to be used in either an electrical battery or internal combustion engine also makes it a little more attractive.
 

bobdole369

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2004
4,504
2
0
- shovel another scoop of aluminum into the boiler!


Do you have any idea how terribly expensive, dirty, and and inefficient it is to produce aluminium? Look at Born2bWire's post for a start. Man that would be ridiculous. As for reduction, you might as well just mine new ore - its probably cheaper.

Reminds me of the simpsons episode where they were on the oregon trail and kept killing buffalo until they went extinct.
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
Originally posted by: bobdole369
- shovel another scoop of aluminum into the boiler!


Do you have any idea how terribly expensive, dirty, and and inefficient it is to produce aluminium? Look at Born2bWire's post for a start. Man that would be ridiculous. As for reduction, you might as well just mine new ore - its probably cheaper.

Reminds me of the simpsons episode where they were on the oregon trail and kept killing buffalo until they went extinct.

Agreed, but it's fun to thing about!
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Kind of OT, but EEStor is supposedly still on track to ship a production EESU by the end of the month. A capacitor storage device would have many advantages over chemical batteries, so I'm anxious to see if EEStor ends up delivering on their claims.
 

Jedi2155

Member
Sep 16, 2003
47
0
0
I have driven a super capacitor powered vehicle....it is quite impressive compared to standard lithium batteries in terms of performance. But its energy density is lacking, and it was not a battery vehicle but rather a fuel cell powered one. But I continue to find super caps to be of great interest and I'm surprised that they haven't integrated a baterry/supercap combination vehicle yet.
 
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