Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: TheJian
I'm still thinking an E8400/E3110 is just as good or better. If I'm thinking about coming out of the box with no extra cost I like my odds at 3.6@400FSB with retail. I don't think 4ghz on retail is possible. Consider his chip is an engineering sample and look at the heatsink used. To hit 4.5 (on water) for anandtech with the E8500 it took 1.56v. A deadly cpu voltage. I'm thinking 6months to a year depending on temps even on water. That was rock stable for them. Again an ES chip. Not retail. Also look at the FSB speeds. How many people hit 2200FSB?
It's not a bargain anymore if you require water, and an excellent OCing board. I think a LOT of boards can hit 1600fsb easily and 3.6 retail isn't a stretch for many. That's a mighty cheap combo if we're talking budget king. The very mention of the word budget means they probably don't have money for a $60 heatsink correct? Water is out for that guy. You don't even get to what I consider REAL WATER, until $250 for a koolance (or around the same for a DIY kit of quality ($215-225?) - but koolance+300w heatsink is hard to beat for easy water).
This chip looks like great odds of 3.33, but crap at 4.0ghz. Again assuming a poor man. If he has money for a Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme maybe 4ghz is doable. I still think 3.6 out of the box with no other costs and not much special is playing the better odds. Also I think it will be more like $170/1000qty vs the 8400 being $183/1000qty. Sure they are through the roof right now, but I think you won't see more than $15 between them.
Don't forget about the 6MB cache either. Double does help. I'd say 3.8 to match the 3.6 E8400.
It's ironic you think the E8400 is 'better' for overclocking since it has a lower multiplier to begin with. The E8400 is a 9x333 chip, as opposed to 10x266 for the E7300. For any given clockspeed, the E8400 needs a higher FSB. To hit 4GHz, you need a 445MHz FSB on the E8400 as opposed to a 400MHz FSB on the E7300.
Most P35 boards easily exceed 500MHz FSB with a dual core CPU, so 4GHz (10 x 400) on the E7300 shouldn't be a problem provided the silicon itself is capable of such speeds.
The official 1k tray price is $133, not some $170 figure you imagined. These chips are Allendale replacements, they won't be in the same price range as the E8xxx chips.
All the 'issues' you pointed out with this chip are totally unfounded.
Read it again. We are talking in a budget context. This "budget" guy won't be running a board that can routinely hit super bus speeds reliably. But as another poster said 1600fsb is doable on most boards (without worrying about quick northbridge deaths). He's not going to go buy some fancy northbridge cooler. He isn't going to have anything but a retail cooler. Now are you willing to bet you can hit 1600fsb on the cpu, the northbridge AND 4ghz (tougher anyway on upper cooling/high(er) volts) on a retail cooler for the cpu over a bet on the e8400 running 3.6ghz (easy on retail) with the same 1600/1600fsb. The point of my post was playing the odds. Did you read the post? I've heard a LOT more chips hitting 3.6 on RETAIL air than I've seen 4ghz on on RETAIL air. What imaginary numbers? Did you READ anandtech's review of the E8500? They state anything above 1.45 is NOT SAFE and INTEL ENGINEERS confirm this! Knowing both cases (anand and the ES 7300) were ES chips (NOT RETAIL) these are no doubt cherry picked chips for SHOCK value. Anand had to do 1.56v to hit 4.5 STABLE on
water. So how hard is it to hit 4.0 on retail then? Pretty tough. Can a LOT more do it on a thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme. OF COURSE. But aren't we defeating the budget minded guy now? Will it take water to hit 4.0 on a large portion of chips?
I'm guessing a bit saying a 3.6 w/6mb = a 3.8 w/3mb but I am confident in that guess based on quads and other benchmarks around the review sites. Check here:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...e-qx9650_11.html#sect0
Same mhz, but 8MB cache vs. 12MB cache. 4% avg in games. So what's 4% of 3.6ghz? 180mhz or so. Oh and we're only talking 50% more cache in this case, but the discussion here is of a chip with 100% more cache. So my 200mhz is probably conservative a bit. SSE is not an issue in this case (both chips are same tech, just different cache in the case of an 8400 vs 7300) so looking at an older benchmark in games is adequate for our purpose. SSE4.1 is not used in ANY game so only the cache in the quadcore I pointed to is causing the difference, with maybe a bit from chip enhancements. You can read E8500 reviews to see much of the same vs old 3ghz model.
Also here in this forum...LOL:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2164762&enterthread=y
Hmm, lot of people not too stable at 4ghz...And with NON RETAIL cooling when mentioned in sig.
"Got mine to 4.0 stable 1.4 volts,system would not restart or shut down all the way,backed it down to 3.8 at 1.3 volts" with a THERMALRIGHT ULTRA 120 EXTREME! (lou6166)
"running mine at 3.8 now. I was at 3.6 for a while now 3.8 and very stable. I could not get 4.0 stable enough at 1.4v so i am not going to try. It booted and ran fine and crashed in 3dmark." (dino26)
"I have overclocked it to 4.1 but I don't like keeping it that high. 3.6ghz is a nice sweet spot for me in terms of heat and voltage." on TUNIQ 120! (powernick50).
Owls hits 4.4 but at 1.55v (a full .1 over anandtech's and INTEL's version of "prepare for burnout"...LOL How many do you count in that thread at 4ghz+. Any on retail? pfft...
Did I say you couldn't hit 4ghz. NO. I said probably on Thermalright ultra 120 extreme (or tuniq for that matter) I.E. good cooling. Did you miss the part where we were talking about a guy on a budget (or budget champ?)? Did you look around the web before slamming my comments? Or even in this forum? I've got one of these chips coming (3110). Do I think I'll hit 4ghz? YES. But I have a koolance with 300w block.
I've built many 2160's. I just had one hit 2.66 only (8x333). I couldn't get it stable up to 1.46v with temps going into 72/73c range no matter what I tried. I was shocked it didn't hit 3ghz (many have for me on the same DS3L board). Could I have hit 2.8 or something...sure. But I didn't have 2 weeks to get it there for a customer. I was looking for quick easy OC's (as always for customers) and without worrying about it coming back! Funny how even in my own mind all of them should do 3ghz. NOPE.
To quote you "Most P35 boards easily exceed 500MHz FSB with a dual core CPU, so 4GHz (10 x 400) on the E7300 shouldn't be a
problem provided the silicon itself is capable of such speeds.". Yeah IF the silicon can get you there. That's my point, I'm betting almost all silicon at any model# from this 45nm node can get to 3.6ghz (thus a perfect chip at E8400) but you're betting they can all do 4ghz. Take a look at the above evidence again. I'll take my bet for an easy overclock with double cache. You can find these results in many forums around the web (ocforums.com etc) You have to hit 3.8ghz to catch me with 1/2 cache. At 3.8 you're already pushing retail. To soundly beat me you have to hit 4ghz. How hot are you comfortable running your chip? How high you like your voltage? With double cache I can run at 3.6 with less volts, probably on retail and have a long life. How about you and your 4ghz 1/2 cache? Does a poor man have the money to replace your possible burnout to barely beat me? If I get a great chip with a e8400 whats to stop me from hitting 4ghz with double cache? Or even 3.8 which you'd again need 4ghz to match? Did you bet on the patriots to win the super bowl? Bet you thought it was a safe bet eh? That was a gimme just like your 4ghz wasn't it? Evidence proves otherwise. Safe for either of these is 3.6. Even IF I give you 3.8 as safe I still tie you at 3.6 and safer.
Get an EYEFULL here unofficial E8500 thread most at 4ghz+ have special cooling (not retail) AND above 1.42v - I see a lot of people at below 4ghz thus proving my point:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=544848
Reading the first 30 posts or so nobody has STOCK cooling! Most have Thermalrights, some with dual fans on em too! 526 posts! Come back when you're done reading. :roll:
I think this case is closed...No? I didn't say you couldn't hit 4, and multiplier is not an issue in this case for most if not all.
OH and regarding my price. Hmm, at places that backorder E8400's some have 3000+ on backorder with them telling you they only have that many coming. So you'll miss this batch too probably and prices at $250+ (even newegg joined this club). Early buyers got them for $209 at newegg. So how long before your IMAGINARY $133 can be bought with this smoking hot deal of a chip? I don't care what Intel SAYS, what can I BUY it for? Are we talking about buying them on a budget when they release or when you can get it for just over MSRP? Is that 3 months after release at these rates? Popularity will make me right for a few batches. Places like newegg trying to dump OLD stock will force Intel to help me be right as is the case now with X3110/E8400. Trickle, trickle. All things come down in price but I thought we were talking about buying one when they hit not 3-6 months from now. We can have this conversation again when they actually hit $140 or so. I think my $170 is easy to see for early price, and newegg's hit system sending it higher immediately after we hammer them with looks at it's link. I watched newegg go up from $229 to $239 then $249 in 2 days! The entire time having NONE in stock...LOL. Just from Monday this week. You've heard of supply and demand correct? Intel price $183 for E8400. Reality at shops $250+. Only ones in stock now are around $265+. Some going for $300+ on ebay...ROFL. Yeah, 7300 will probably debut on newegg for $135 (for 3 seconds...). pfft...