the perfect LEGACY-FREE motherboard

[johanh13]

Hello you all!

Why does almost everyone want to hold on to their old technology? I am looking for the perfect legacy-free motherboard, the closest I have found is the Intel DX38BT and the DP35DP. However, the first is still not available, and neither is totally legacy-free...

Here is what I would like to see in an Intel board:

4 DDR3 RAM slots
5 PCIe slots, all version 2.0, the top two with a blank next to them
(all would have x16 mechanical interface, 3 with x4 or x1 electrical)
8 USB ports on the rear panel, 4 additional via headers
2 Firewire ports on rear panel, 2 additional via headers
2 eSATA ports on rear panel
6 SATA ports on motherboard
integrated HD sound

Here is what I wish they would NOT have:
parallel ports
serial ports
floppy ports
IDE ports
PS/2 key/mouse ports
PCI slots
PCIX slots

How about it Intel?

 

[Quiksilver]

5 PCIe slots, all version 2.0, the top two with a blank next to them

Not going to happen, maybe at most 3 or 4. with 2x 16, and x4, and x1.

Your not going to find a motherboard without PCI slots either.

 

[johanh13]

Hello,

The Gigabyte GA-X38-DQ6 already has five PCIe (although not all version 2.0, or all x16)

I would be satisfied if they just removed the two PCI slots, and put a blank next to the x16 slots (for double-slot graphics cards)

Here is a link, if you want to see what I am talking about:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...l+Motherboard+-+Retail

 

[kmmatney]

They need to make more PCIe devices. WInTV is just now coming out with a PCI Express tuner. Hopefully if more manufacturers start converting everything from PCI to PCIe, then this can happen. I still find the PS2 keyboard port useful - I bet that will be the last thing to go.


Abit released a PS2-free motherboard back in 2002.

http://www.hothardware.com/hh_...ps/abitmax/abitmax.pdf

I don't think it sold well...

 

[johanh13]

Five years later and we still have not moved forward! Most of Abit's new boards have re-instated the PS/2 key/mouse ports! I have not used a non-USB mouse or keyboard since the first Microsoft USB versions came out. I remember how elated I was when computers went to the PS/2 ports, from the older and larger 5-pin DIN port for the keyboard and the serial port for the mouse. Also, I was using SATA CD/DVD drives as soon as they were available, which is quite a while already. Why keep messing with the 80-conductor flat cable? I guess the oldest technology on most otherwise modern motherboards are the parallel and serial ports...

Originally posted by: kmmatney
They need to make more PCIe devices. WInTV is just now coming out with a PCI Express tuner. Hopefully if more manufacturers start converting everything from PCI to PCIe, then this can happen. I still find the PS2 keyboard port useful - I bet that will be the last thing to go.


Abit released a PS2-free motherboard back in 2002.

http://www.hothardware.com/hh_...ps/abitmax/abitmax.pdf

I don't think it sold well...

 

[Heidfirst]

The market for people with no legacy devices is far smaller than that for people who want to carry something over.
I still find PS/2 useful & there are loads of industrial machines that require programming via serial.
Anyway, next year Intel is bringing out a chipset with no native PS/2 support.

 

[johanh13]

I think that the PS/2 ports are handled by external chips on most modern motherboards. Also, the DX38BT has an ATA port, but that is handled by the Marvel chip (it also handles the eSATA ports, since the x38 only has 6 SATA built in).
I have a USB to serial adapter that I use to program a Panasonic PBX phone system (which is ancient too!)...

Originally posted by: Heidfirst
The market for people with no legacy devices is far smaller than that for people who want to carry something over.
I still find PS/2 useful & there are loads of industrial machines that require programming via serial.
Anyway, next year Intel is bringing out a chipset with no native PS/2 support.

 

[zpe]

I don't understand, why is PS/2 so useful? I mean I don't recall seeing any keyboards and mice being sold with PS/2 connectors. They're all sold as USB devices with PS/2 adapters. Also, because there are more USB ports, it's easier to plug a USB device into an easy-to-reach location. I like plugging my mouse in those front panel ports.

I can understand leaving in parallel and serial ports. Most consumers don't need them, but they have uses that USB can't replace. But I don't understand the need for PS/2 ports.

OP: Intel has been pushing for lgeacy-free for a long time. Don't blame them. They have a financial interest to do so because it cuts down on costs. They took out native IDE support in their newer chipsets. Still, motherboard manufacturers put in 3rd party support.

Also, PCI is not so old to be called legacy IMO. A lot of people have invested in add-in cards and those things just don't die. Besides, PCI-E x1 is not much of an improvement over PCI.

Why not add BIOS to your list? It makes everything in your list look relatively modern. I think part of the problem with getting weaned off legacy parts is that BIOS makes it difficult to make a clean, backward compatible break. Example-IDE to SATA.

 

[Peter]

BIOS is no roadblock to making a 'legacy free' machine. BIOSes can very well do without PS/2 ports and controllers, it doesn't care about peripheral ports anyway, and one could technically even dispose of the CMOS RAM.

Fully legacy free machines not only make a cut in peripheral connectivity (which, for parallel, serial and PS/2 ports can be solved through adapters), it also makes a much harsher cut in operating system compatibility. XP, Vista, recent Linux releases, and that's it.

The main roadblock is users - legacy free does not sell well. Oh noes, I can't use my PCI card, my serial modem, my beloved old keyboard, my printer! It doesn't run DOS? Ghost can't use USB keyboard? I have some games that run in Windows 98 only, I want to dual-boot that. I want all the latest technology, but I also want to keep all my old stuff!!!!1!11eleven!!1! LEGACY FREE NOT WANT!

PCIE 1x slots are a major progress over PCI because it's not a bus, each card gets its own dedicated bandwidth.

 

[Peter]

By the way, Intel chipsets didn't have "native PS/2 support", ever. Keyboard/mouse controllers have always been contained in Super-IO chips. VIA and SIS on the other hand have had the PS/2 controller inside the southbridge for quite some time. By the way this controller ties into a couple of vital PC compatibility 'features' - A20 gate (google it!), reset - and is also vital to getting a USB keyboard to work before the OS has fully booted, it's probably the last thing on the list.

Serial and parallel ports? They have replacements, and the room they use on the ATX I/O plate could be put to much better use.
PCI and IDE? Nobody needs IDE in a new build, and there are already PCIE cards for /everything/ (even serial and parallel ports ).

 

[Synomenon]

I'm all for legacy-free boards as well. My Shuttle is legacy-free (rear ports-wise) and that's one reason I've stayed with Shuttle boxes. It still has an IDE port and a floppy port. A header for a parallel port is also on the motherboard.

I don't understand why they still put these parallel, serial and PS/2 ports on the back. They have USB adapters for all of those.

I'd like to see a legacy-free mATX G33 or P35 board.

 

[Heidfirst]

Originally posted by: zpe
I don't understand, why is PS/2 so useful? I mean I don't recall seeing any keyboards and mice being sold with PS/2 connectors. They're all sold as USB devices with PS/2 adapters.

No, they aren't all sold as USB with PS/2 connectors.
Oftentimes you can get into the BIOS of a mobo with a PS/2 kb when you can't with an USB one.

 

[Aluvus]

Originally posted by: Peter

PCI and IDE? Nobody needs IDE in a new build

Assuming you aren't carrying over any older drives (and drives are probably some of the most-reused hardware), and can find at least 1 SATA optical drive that doesn't have any deal-breaker bugs.

Legacy interfaces survive because they are still used. As the stream of complaints about boards with only 1 IDE port should indicate, IDE specifically is one that is far from dead.

Both SATA and PCI-Express suffer from a basic problem: they offer technical advantages, but for the general public they lack a real, conclusive selling point. They're also much better in concept than they are in practice.

SATA is faster, but that makes no practical difference. It has thinner cables, but they're actually harder to organize neatly and their connectors are the source of much consternation. It adds lots of neat ideas (eSATA, hot-swapping, staggered spinup), but in practice they are implemented so poorly (if at all) that few people get any utility out of them. The Windows XP "F6 drivers" issue for SATA, which is basically a matter of timing, has also done a lot to slow down adoption of SATA.

PCI-Express is faster than PCI (or AGP, for x16), and it does indeed offer each slot dedicated bandwidth, but so what? Most users have, what, a sound card and maybe a modem? Even that is changing, as integrated audio takes over the market. The extra speed is desirable for RAID controllers, but mainstream users gain nothing from the extra speed, so they don't care. The PCIe standard really did itself no favors supporting x1, x4, x8, and x16 slots... all on the same board. The confusion this has created (esp. wrt SLI/Crossfire boards that have "x16" slots that may actually be connected as x8 slots, or do other wacky things) is ridiculous.

Serial and parallel ports are now obsolete enough that most users would not notice if they went away (although, ironically, a lot of *new* microcontrollers still rely on the presence of a serial port). But the rest still have one foot out of the grave. I'd love to see things condense down to fewer standards as much as anyone (though I have absolutely no intentions of giving up my PS/2 keyboard), but the market simply isn't up for it yet.

 

[id24601]

Legacy does have its uses. If you were to build a legacy free system (SATA only) based on ICH9 then you would not be able to use many popular boot CDs. Hirens (and anything else that uses gcdrom.sys as its SATA CD/DVD driver) would fail to work because ICH9 is not supported by gcdrom.sys

 

[Peter]

Like I said - legacy free' makes a harsh cut in backward compatibility with old operating systems. Something that uses whatever.sys drivers is based on DOS - and you'll have to stop expecting to run software technology from the late 1980s at some point. It's almost 2008 now, time to move on.

Aluvus, notice how I said "new build" not "carry half your old stuff over".
Regarding sound cards: Just ask any random X-Fi user about how this card just *loves* to suffer from bandwidth starvation. Anyhow, replacing PCI slots with 1x PCIE slots frees up a whole lot of board real estate, useful either for making the board smaller or for integrating more stuff.

 

[Aluvus]

Originally posted by: Peter
Aluvus, notice how I said "new build" not "carry half your old stuff over".

I would wager that a huge percentage of "new builds" include the reuse of some existing hardware. And one drive is not exactly "half" of an old system. Even assuming nothing is carried over, the issues (and until recently, cost) of SATA optical drives are a big hindrance to going completely SATA.

Regarding sound cards: Just ask any random X-Fi user about how this card just *loves* to suffer from bandwidth starvation.

You'll have to find one first. X-Fi owners are a small group, and with Vista's changes to how sound is handled their numbers are not exactly exploding. Sound cards are becoming increasingly irrelevant as integrated sound gets better and better. This is especially true for mainstream users, who want something that Just Works.

The analogy I would draw is to SLI/Crossfire. Yes, that is a PCIe-centric capability that is valuable to a fraction of "enthusiast" buyers, and for them it makes PCIe more appealing. But to the market at large, it is unimportant.

Anyhow, replacing PCI slots with 1x PCIE slots frees up a whole lot of board real estate, useful either for making the board smaller or for integrating more stuff.

Yes and no. x1 slots are smaller, so you can shove some more components in that space (nothing too tall though). But coincident with the adoption of PCIe for graphics has been the proliferation of even more cards with dual-slot cooling solutions. These create all sorts of complications for the board makers. SLI/Crossfire makes that even worse, as you now have to design around the possibility that 2 slots will be completely inaccessible for some users.

The actual space savings of just using a smaller slot are fairly small, particularly with the keep-out requirements limiting component height. Real space savings come from being able to eliminate slots entirely, and PCIe boards have not really gone in that direction. In fact, any reductions in number of slots probably owe more to the growing trend to integrate audio and such onto the motherboard. The (temporary) need to accomodate both PCI and PCIe slots has pushed back against this reduction trend somewhat.

 

[Peter]

The one huge percentage of new builds is retail systems from the big five. The DIY market is totally irrelevant if you look at the numbers.

What "issues" are you reading into SATA optical drives anyway - issues that their IDE counterpart also has don't count, mind.

SLI/Crossfire/blah again is totally irrelevant to the forces that own 99 percent of the market.

Oh, and guess what, systems with a reduced number of slots have been popular with integrators for many years. It's called MicroATX - and it's exactly there where the move from PCI to PCIE 1x brought a great relief to what else fits on the board. Thank you for demonstrating my point

 

[zpe]

Originally posted by: Heidfirst
Oftentimes you can get into the BIOS of a mobo with a PS/2 kb when you can't with an USB one.

I hope these are old motherboards.

Originally posted by: Peter
BIOS is no roadblock to making a 'legacy free' machine. BIOSes can very well do without PS/2 ports and controllers, it doesn't care about peripheral ports anyway, and one could technically even dispose of the CMOS RAM.

BIOS programming is difficult. With EFI, it would be easy to emulate some of the older parts. You could have proper IDE emulation for SATA devices very easily. That way, we wouldn't need to press F6 in XP's setup.

PCI and IDE? Nobody needs IDE in a new build, and there are already PCIE cards for /everything/ (even serial and parallel ports

I agree with the IDE, but not PCI. PCI cards fill all sorts of needs and it's not easy to replace them because PCI-E cards are expensive compared to other devices. Wireless cards and tv tuners aren't that cheap.

Oh, and guess what, systems with a reduced number of slots have been popular with integrators for many years. It's called MicroATX - and it's exactly there where the move from PCI to PCIE 1x brought a great relief to what else fits on the board.

I think that's due to motherboard integration. You still see PCI slots on mATX motherboards. Of course, they could simply get rid of them, but then they would be replaced with PCI-E slots. Actually now that I think about it, the #1 roadblock to ridding ourselves of PCI is the modem. OEM's charge nothing for them and they're included by default.

Originally posted by: Heidfirst
though I have absolutely no intentions of giving up my PS/2 keyboard

It seems that there's a market for older, sturdier keyboards. Maybe you should try prodding Microsoft, Logitech, etc. to make one that you like.

 

[id24601]

Originally posted by: Peter
Like I said - legacy free' makes a harsh cut in backward compatibility with old operating systems. Something that uses whatever.sys drivers is based on DOS - and you'll have to stop expecting to run software technology from the late 1980s at some point. It's almost 2008 now, time to move on.

The problem is is that I am not talking about antique software, I am talking about modern software that uses DOS as its base when it is used in a non-windows environment from some kind of boot cd.

Acronis for example, says it uses creates a linux environment for its bootable images, or when it need to drop outside of windows to do stuff that would not be allowed to do inside windows. While that is great for Arconis, most other software uses DOS to make itself bootable (Drive Image, etc...)

It will change eventually, but right now, the harsh cut would be almost all of the bootable software out there. (Windows wise, not talking about linux boot stuff thats out there.)

 

[Aluvus]

Originally posted by: Peter
The one huge percentage of new builds is retail systems from the big five. The DIY market is totally irrelevant if you look at the numbers.

Not exactly a "build" if you pay someone else to make it for you, is it?

What "issues" are you reading into SATA optical drives anyway - issues that their IDE counterpart also has don't count, mind.

Booting from them is the big scary one. There are intermittently reported issues of one drive or another not playing nicely with whatever burning software, disappearing from the OS, etc., but these are only marginally related to the interface itself.

These sorts of things get fixed or become irrelevant over time, but that hasn't quite happened yet.

SLI/Crossfire/blah again is totally irrelevant to the forces that own 99 percent of the market.

Yes and no. If the question is "do lots of people use SLI/Crossfire?", the answer is a resounding no. If the question is "have the design concerns for SLI/Crossfire had a lot of unintended consequences?", the answer is yes. Their significance is amplified because manufacturers' leading-edge designs typically support one or the other of these techs, and those are the most "visible" of their product lines (get the most reviews, etc.).

And once Dell started marketing SLI systems, well, that changed the game a bit.

For mainstream buyers, the effect has not been huge. But read a few threads from people building relatively cheap systems, and see if you don't notice that these techs have seeped into the consciousness of even that demographic.

Oh, and guess what, systems with a reduced number of slots have been popular with integrators for many years. It's called MicroATX - and it's exactly there where the move from PCI to PCIE 1x brought a great relief to what else fits on the board. Thank you for demonstrating my point

PCI-Express has actually increased strain on such designs, because they are now pushed to include both PCI and PCIe. As I already noted, the increasing trend toward integration of audio, video, etc. (a trend that is the most pronounced in OEM systems) has been beneficial for MicroATX designs. And ironically, has made PCI-Express progressively less important. But PCIe has not encouraged that trend; it has acted somewhat against it.

If you were designing a MicroATX board and the world changed instantly from using PCI to the slightly-smaller PCI-Express x1, the impact on your life would be fairly slight. If instead the world changed to still mostly using PCI but sort of wanting you to also include PCI-Express, as has actually happened, your life just got slightly worse.

 

[Peter]

zpe, BIOS lets you stay backwards compatible much much more than EFI can. EFI will pose an even bigger cut in OS compatibility than a 'legacy free' machine does.

What you can and cannot emulate actually depends on the chipset hardware, btw. If the chipset doesn't let you program SATA channels into pretend-IDE mode, then you can't have that, period, regardless of choice of firmware architecture.

Card cost ... I can buy a wireless PCIE card from Abit for 20 euros, pretty much the same as similar cards in PCI. PCIE TV tuner (dual digital OTA) costs me exactly 5 bucks more than the less capable PCI model from the same maker.

id24601, yes I know, a lot of these bootable tools use DOS as a launchpad - and being a BIOS writer for halfway legacy free machines, you don't have to tell me what a PITA they are. They're going to have to move on, like Acronis did, or they'll fade into oblivion soon.

 

[Sheninat0r]

You're not getting 0 PCI slots until all PCI cards go away - and they won't, at least for a long time. PCI isn't dead, and even after it's dead, who knows how long it'll take to REALLY die out? Think AGP...

 

[jonmcc33]

Originally posted by: zpe
I don't understand, why is PS/2 so useful? I mean I don't recall seeing any keyboards and mice being sold with PS/2 connectors. They're all sold as USB devices with PS/2 adapters. Also, because there are more USB ports, it's easier to plug a USB device into an easy-to-reach location. I like plugging my mouse in those front panel ports.

I can understand leaving in parallel and serial ports. Most consumers don't need them, but they have uses that USB can't replace. But I don't understand the need for PS/2 ports.

OP: Intel has been pushing for lgeacy-free for a long time. Don't blame them. They have a financial interest to do so because it cuts down on costs. They took out native IDE support in their newer chipsets. Still, motherboard manufacturers put in 3rd party support.

Also, PCI is not so old to be called legacy IMO. A lot of people have invested in add-in cards and those things just don't die. Besides, PCI-E x1 is not much of an improvement over PCI.

Why not add BIOS to your list? It makes everything in your list look relatively modern. I think part of the problem with getting weaned off legacy parts is that BIOS makes it difficult to make a clean, backward compatible break. Example-IDE to SATA.

You don't seem to understand how much corporate needs overwhelm the power user needs. The company I work for uses bar code scanners that use PS/2 connectors. Some of our depots and distribution centers also have serial or USB scanners but the cost to replace all of the fully functional PS/2 scanners would be crazy. Those things run $400 each.

 

[Peter]

... and they don't work on those $7 USB dongles that contain a PS/2 keyboard/mouse controller?

 

[johanh13]

Hey, you are missing my whole point! Why replace them when they are hooked up to computers that work? If you buy a new computer, then buy one that is legacy free and equip it with the USB scanner. Why could Intel not make two motherboards, legacy-free & old-timer. It could be the same PCB, just one is missing a few parts, the legacy ASIC and the related ports. The legacy-free board would cost nothing extra, it would actually be cheaper! The X38 chipset does not support any legacy hardware, legacy is provided by extra ASICs. So, if you applied my wishes to the DX38BT, it would be missing the two PCI slots and the IDE port (not sure when/where the infrared ports come in?). One other thing, since we are chunking the Marvel chip in the process, we would also lose the eSATA ports, which is not a big deal to me...

Originally posted by: jonmcc33

Originally posted by: zpe
I don't understand, why is PS/2 so useful? I mean I don't recall seeing any keyboards and mice being sold with PS/2 connectors. They're all sold as USB devices with PS/2 adapters. Also, because there are more USB ports, it's easier to plug a USB device into an easy-to-reach location. I like plugging my mouse in those front panel ports.

I can understand leaving in parallel and serial ports. Most consumers don't need them, but they have uses that USB can't replace. But I don't understand the need for PS/2 ports.

OP: Intel has been pushing for lgeacy-free for a long time. Don't blame them. They have a financial interest to do so because it cuts down on costs. They took out native IDE support in their newer chipsets. Still, motherboard manufacturers put in 3rd party support.

Also, PCI is not so old to be called legacy IMO. A lot of people have invested in add-in cards and those things just don't die. Besides, PCI-E x1 is not much of an improvement over PCI.

Why not add BIOS to your list? It makes everything in your list look relatively modern. I think part of the problem with getting weaned off legacy parts is that BIOS makes it difficult to make a clean, backward compatible break. Example-IDE to SATA.

You don't seem to understand how much corporate needs overwhelm the power user needs. The company I work for uses bar code scanners that use PS/2 connectors. Some of our depots and distribution centers also have serial or USB scanners but the cost to replace all of the fully functional PS/2 scanners would be crazy. Those things run $400 each.