The Politics of Star Trek

[Jadow]

How would you describe the structure of the federation of planets in Star Trek?

I'd say it was an extremely socialist government, but even socialists have money, they don't even use money in trek! Man that's left! I wish the Borg did asimilate them!

 

[MovingTarget]

They didn't use "money" as we know it, but they still had the concept. You do remember the Ferrengi, don't you? They did business within federation territory quite a bit as they did trade. Does Quark's bar on DS9 ring a bell? As I recall, they used an e-money type system of "federation credits". They aren't entirely socialist in the way we see it.

Hmmm...wait a second. Working towards the "good" of the whole (biological/technological perfection) as the only goal, NO money or financial system at all, class society of "drones" with a queen at the top, a true utopia in the eyes of all those (borg) that everyone will one day become part of due to assimilation (read: expansionism). If you think about it, the borg are the real communists

 

[FrodoB]

Aren't the Ferrengi seperate from the "Federation?"
I believe Earth was a socialists utopia from The Next Generation onward.

 

[nickPOWERZ]

I have to say this is just an awesome thread.

Didn't it seem like a pretty small and concise government too? Maybe we didn't see much of it, but it seemed like it was pretty open. Also the courts were fast and it didn't seem like they were used very often. It seemed very stable. However, we only viewed the military side of it all.

 

[sandorski]

It wasn't Capitalist, but not Socialist either. It's kinda vague, due to lack of specifics offered by the various ST series, but it seemed to be a Technocratic Democracy(I made that up). What's meant by that is, due to the lack of great need, the people of ST seemed to have the freedom to do exactly what they wanted to do and there seemed to be a Social respect and acceptance of each persons specialty within society. It's quite difficult to know for sure as most of the ST world shown was focussed on a structured Casual Military type of environment though.

 

[nutxo]

Hmm, I remember in next generation, the first season there was an episode where they called the natives of a planet primitive because they still had an economic system..

 

[Painman]

If someone here in this day and age figured out how to get a matter replicator to work, would they usher in a new age of enlightenment a la Star Trek? Or would they mysteriously disappear along with their innovation and be erased from history? Methinks the latter, but I'm a cynical old bastard anyway

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Painman
If someone here in this day and age figured out how to get a matter replicator to work, would they usher in a new age of enlightenment a la Star Trek? Or would they mysteriously disappear along with their innovation and be erased from history? Methinks the latter, but I'm a cynical old bastard anyway

Hehe, I'm sure you are correct.

 

[Painman]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Painman If someone here in this day and age figured out how to get a matter replicator to work, would they usher in a new age of enlightenment a la Star Trek? Or would they mysteriously disappear along with their innovation and be erased from history? Methinks the latter, but I'm a cynical old bastard anyway

Hehe, I'm sure you are correct.

Bah, you cynical old bastard.

:beer:

 

[conehead433]

The replicator was probably why they didn't have to work for money.

 

[kylebisme]

the star trek federation is Rodenburies idea of a totalitarian utopia, as sick and twisted as that is.

As nearly as I can concentrate on the question today, I believe I am God; certainly you are, I think we intelligent beings on this planet are all a piece of God, are becoming God.

-Gene Roddenberry

obviously he though some people were more a peice of God than others though, as evident by the extra privileges afforded the bridge crew over the other people on the ship.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: nickPOWERZ
I have to say this is just an awesome thread.

Didn't it seem like a pretty small and concise government too? Maybe we didn't see much of it, but it seemed like it was pretty open. Also the courts were fast and it didn't seem like they were used very often. It seemed very stable. However, we only viewed the military side of it all.

I didn't read the rest yet, but yes, never thought I'd see a Trek discussion Politic related in P&N but certainly makes sense especially during the tumoil we are in now.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: FrodoB
Aren't the Ferrengi seperate from the "Federation?"
I believe Earth was a socialists utopia from The Next Generation onward.

Yes, I believe the Ferrengi are independents/neutral. Sort of like Switzerland.

 

[FrodoB]

The holodeck opens up new possibilities for adult entertainment.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: conehead433
The replicator was probably why they didn't have to work for money.

More like half semi-conductor/ half organic high speed nanobots. They addressed this with "Organic Gelpacks" in an episode where technically the packs got "infected". The system would still need some sort of access to resources and re-filling but that wasn't really addressed.

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: conehead433
The replicator was probably why they didn't have to work for money.

More like half semi-conductor/ half organic high speed nanobots. They addressed this with "Organic Gelpacks" in an episode where technically the packs got "infected". The system would still need some sort of access to resources and re-filling but that wasn't really addressed.

I thought the replicators worked on the concept of transporters but with permanently stored patterns. The whole transporter technology thing was based on matter to energy conversion and vice versa (a la Einstein). Thus the replicators, using the stored pattern, of say for example "Earl Grey, Hot", would then just take some energy, and using the pattern, create matter (using the conversion process). The gelpacks (from Voyager) were just an attempt to improve performance in some key systems and weren't necessarily tied to the replicators alone. Of course, I haven't read a "Starfleet Technical Manual" in like a decade, so I could be completely wrong. BTW, did anyone ever realize that those Starfleet Technical Manuals were some 200 pages of complete BS? Interesting BS, but BS nonetheless.

Anyway, I digress as this is supposed to be political discussion. Wasn't politics something that Roddenberry's original vision wanted to stay away from? I vaguely recall some outcry from people who feared that Berman/Braga were ruining the franchise (and straying from what GRod wanted) using thinly veiled fiction to introduce a race/planet (Bajorans/Bajor) that too closely resembled the Jews/Israel and another that too closely resembled the Nazis (Cardassians) and an all too similar history between the two back in the early seasons of DS9?

Anyway, here goes:
Federation - Socialist Utopians, if US society evolved in an idealized way centuries into the future
Ferengi - if corporate America were to take over gov't at some point (Capitalism as gov't)
Romulan Empire - hehe, Roman Empire in a galactic sense? W/ some Stalinist Communism thrown in.
Borg - "aggressive" communism, i.e. if Communism was vastly technologically superior
Klingon Empire - hmm...
Actually, there are just too many damn empires/gov'ts to list. We could go on and on with the Breen, Cardassians, Dominon, never mind those single episode races...

 

[kylebisme]

if the federation was socialist then the captian would have gotten in repermanded regularly for putting the needs of the few over the needs of the many. like i said before, the federation is clearly totalitarian.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: sandorski
It wasn't Capitalist, but not Socialist either. It's kinda vague, due to lack of specifics offered by the various ST series, but it seemed to be a Technocratic Democracy(I made that up). What's meant by that is, due to the lack of great need, the people of ST seemed to have the freedom to do exactly what they wanted to do and there seemed to be a Social respect and acceptance of each persons specialty within society. It's quite difficult to know for sure as most of the ST world shown was focussed on a structured Casual Military type of environment though.

Just need to qualify: Capitalism is an economic model, not a government form. Therefore, you can not compare capitalism to socialism. Apples and oranges. Plutocracy is a government model based on money. Carry on.

 

[PrinceofWands]

The existence of replicators destroys any possibility of a value system. If anyone can just create gold, jewels, gold pressed latinum, etc then what do you base worth on? Much the same as current synthetic diamond production. The process has become so perfected that they now artificially flaw their created diamonds according to random algorithms so that they are 100% indestinguishable from naturally occuring stones...hence the requirement to mark all synthetics with a makers mark.

If we agree that a replicator removes all worth from items, what is left? The only possibility becomes the pursuit of individual accomplishment and perfection. At least, that's what I'd be doing if money was no object.

 

[kylebisme]

there was still flaws with the replicators, i remember specifically one instance were some caviar was noted to be the real thing as the replicators could not do it justice.

 

[Vic]

Remember from Voyager that replicators still required energy to work. While completely ignored in all the shows, E=MC2 would imply that they would take A LOT of energy. They had an excellent energy source, matter/anti-matter fusion reactors, but they ran off an expensive and relatively rare mineral, dilithium, which was generally mined from remote moons and asteroids by slave labor in horrid conditions (i.e. Rura-Penthe from ST6).

Early TOS episodes seemed different, but the later TOS movies and TNG episodes, movies, etc. which followed showed a rather terrifying form of government that was always presented as though it were wonderful. It was a military-dominated totalitarian government with a strong meritocracy that enforced distinct economic classes. While money was said to no longer exist, it was very clear that economic status still did (also from ST6, remember the Klingons' concerns of ending up on the "bottom of the Federation employment ladder").
Merit (including future placement and advancement) was determined by the government during an individual's teenage years, and the government's decision was not subject to appeal or later change. Favorable placement could mean a glorious career with many benefits and privileges. Unfavorable placement could mean a lifetime of serfdom and menial employment, with the only benefit being that the individual was always guaranteed employment, food, and shelter (though little else). Travel appeared to be strictly limited as the biggest benefit of being in the military was the ability to travel.

In essense, it wasn't much different than the old USSR, and it was clearly the ideal government as thought-up by a spiteful nerd.

 

[zephyrprime]

Also the courts were fast and it didn't seem like they were used very often

Of course they were fast! They had the mind reading machine! No hiding anything from the court with that. And did you notice that you could have counsel but you could have almost anybody be your counsel?

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Remember from Voyager that replicators still required energy to work. While completely ignored in all the shows, E=MC2 would imply that they would take A LOT of energy.

they had mater-anti mater powercells; and all of the feces other excretions where re-replicated into new food.

 

[conehead433]

"there was still flaws with the replicators, i remember specifically one instance were some caviar was noted to be the real thing as the replicators could not do it justice."

Most major flaw was the inability to create good alcoholic beverages (and good illegal drugs probably as well). Probably was a flourishing underground for these items that you never got to see on the show. LOL You also still had to come up with a way to be able to afford to buy a replicator. And they did require energy.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: conehead433
"there was still flaws with the replicators, i remember specifically one instance were some caviar was noted to be the real thing as the replicators could not do it justice."

Most major flaw was the inability to create good alcoholic beverages (and good illegal drugs probably as well). Probably was a flourishing underground for these items that you never got to see on the show. LOL You also still had to come up with a way to be able to afford to buy a replicator. And they did require energy.

so the only 2 sectors left in the econmy was replecator creation and energy; w/ government exploration being a big industry as well?