The source of OCZ flash

[=Wendy=]

Way to much noise here.
The S stamped on the SpecTek NAND is Spectek's logo. The S does not mean the NAND is out of spec.
http://www.spectek.com/menus/flash_main.aspx

The NAND seen the OWC blog has the SpecTek logo, and the NAND is seen as PF458 AL.

From SpecTek, the AL grade is "full spec with tighter requirements). In other words, not trash NAND.
http://www.spectek.com/pdfs/SpecTek_pns_Flash.pdf

Micron spot checks the complete wafer, and if for some reason it fails, they send the wafer to SpecTek. SpecTek then checks each chip on the wafer, and bins the chips accordingly. A few bad NAND chips on a wafer does NOT mean the individual NAND chips that passes as AL spec from SpecTeks tests is poor quality NAND.

 

[nanaki333]

Way to much noise here.
The S stamped on the SpecTek NAND is Spectek's logo. The S does not mean the NAND is out of spec.
http://www.spectek.com/menus/flash_main.aspx

The NAND seen the OWC blog has the SpecTek logo, and the NAND is seen as PF458 AL.

From SpecTek, the AL grade is "full spec with tighter requirements). In other words, not trash NAND.
http://www.spectek.com/pdfs/SpecTek_pns_Flash.pdf

Micron spot checks the complete wafer, and if for some reason it fails, they send the wafer to SpecTek. SpecTek then checks each chip on the wafer, and bins the chips accordingly. A few bad NAND chips on a wafer does NOT mean the individual NAND chips that passes as AL spec from SpecTeks tests is poor quality NAND.

every time i read about these wafers... i always picture a giant honeycomb dripping with honey. mmmmm.....

 

[taltamir]

Way to much noise here.
The S stamped on the SpecTek NAND is Spectek's logo. The S does not mean the NAND is out of spec.
http://www.spectek.com/menus/flash_main.aspx

The NAND seen the OWC blog has the SpecTek logo, and the NAND is seen as PF458 AL.

From SpecTek, the AL grade is "full spec with tighter requirements). In other words, not trash NAND.
http://www.spectek.com/pdfs/SpecTek_pns_Flash.pdf

Micron spot checks the complete wafer, and if for some reason it fails, they send the wafer to SpecTek. SpecTek then checks each chip on the wafer, and bins the chips accordingly. A few bad NAND chips on a wafer does NOT mean the individual NAND chips that passes as AL spec from SpecTeks tests is poor quality NAND.

thank you. this information then means that the articles in question are FUD spread by an OCZ competitor (OWC is an OCZ competitor). (also, thank you for staying on topic)

I had a feeling something was fishy here, to quote my first post in this thread:

If this is legit then it is ridiculously bad. However, I am not ruling out FUD yet considering the sources.

 

[Emulex]

i thought owc just badged ocz and charged more for it lol.

 

[taltamir]

i thought owc just badged ocz and charged more for it lol.

now that would REALLY be a twist on this whole story
Forget fire, they are nuking those bridges.

 

[groberts101]

groberts101

All Sandforce drive performs identically the same.Why users choose OCZ?? I believe it's pretty much because of the competitive pricing and the brand.
You would be correct in some sense then. OCZ has better/faster firmware due to greater resources and better enthusiast backing to help shape the product lines. I choose the performance brands as an enthusiast/power user.

spectek is known as Micron's subsidary to sell downgrade chips, no matter dram chips or flash chips. Tier1 one wafers go to crucial or IMFT, crappy ones go to spectek and sold with very low price. Most of these chips are sold to emerging markets, such as china etc..
Wendy said what I was trying to tell you guys in a much more non-combative way(she's nice like that) and really sumed it up quite nicely. THE BIG S DOES NOT DESIGNATE NAND QUALITY.

OCZ markets itself as high quality and high performance SSD vendor, but it uses downgrade flash chips inside. The relibility is the biggest concern as many users may suffer data lose or the drive just die easily.
Couldn't make much more of an incorrect statement than that. The correct way is.."the biggest concern is many users may suffer data loss or the drive just becomes panic locked too easily due to Sandforces slow progression of firmware fixes to eliminate skewed perception of the issue". OCZ sells far more Sandforce drives.. therefor shows more issue with bios/sleep issues than any other vendor. Pretty simple really.

Every company has their own definition of " high quality" That's why OWC mention this sendtence at the end of the video "It may be enough for OCZ, but not for us"

Now that's funny(and obviously MUST be true if it's in the video)! Maybe that's why they are taking so long to market their new drives then. They're obviously sourcing only the best parts and coming up with some TURBO 6G firmware! I can hardly wait for the next few months to go by to buy one.

PS. OCZ has just released the 1.32 firmware today and it's already said to help quite a few issues already in the first few hours. I wonder if OWC released theirs too?

Oh.. that's right!.. their drives never have any Sandforce related issues, eh? :whiste:

 

[taltamir]

Wendy said what I was trying to tell you guys in a much more non-combative way(she's nice like that) and really sumed it up quite nicely. THE BIG S DOES NOT DESIGNATE NAND QUALITY

I didn't find her post even the least bit combative. She seemed informed, collected, and calm. Its not enough to scream (caps) "THE BIG S DOES NOT DESIGNATE NAND QUALITY". Her explanation of what it actually means is, especially when fortified by the link she provided.

Every company has their own definition of " high quality" That's why OWC mention this sendtence at the end of the video "It may be enough for OCZ, but not for us"

we found a ‘S’ stamped over Micron logo on all the flash devices (see the image to the left). This indicates the device is “off spec” product because it failed some parameter of Micron’s full performance and/or quality specification testing.

THE BIG S DOES NOT DESIGNATE NAND QUALITY.

Those three statements do not add up.

While this statement does:

The S stamped on the SpecTek NAND is Spectek's logo. The S does not mean the NAND is out of spec.

Micron spot checks the complete wafer, and if for some reason it fails, they send the wafer to SpecTek. SpecTek then checks each chip on the wafer, and bins the chips accordingly. A few bad NAND chips on a wafer does NOT mean the individual NAND chips that passes as AL spec from SpecTeks tests is poor quality NAND.

 

[groberts101]

you seem to jump to conclusions pretty fast with very little info. maybe reread that once more?

Wendy said, what I was trying to tell you guys, in a much more non-combative way

hopefully the comma's help clarify the point :thumbsup:

 

[taltamir]

you seem to jump to conclusions pretty fast with very little info.

This is false, on my very first post of this thread I demonstrated my refusal to jump to conclusions by saying "if this is true this is bad, but it might also be FUD, someone please confirm or refute". I stuck to that policy until wendy brought her data, in which case i said "its probably fud, if what wendy says is true; which it appears like it probably is". Jumping to conclusions is the exact opposite of what I do.

maybe reread that once more?

Upon rereading it, I see that I have misread your statement, there was a "non" in there which my brain failed to process. I blame lack of sleep.

hopefully the comma's help clarify the point :thumbsup:

I clearly missed the "non" part and just read it as "combative". Comma has no impact on the sentence's meaning.

However, the bulk of my statement remains. So let me revise it.

She was indeed very informed, collected, and calm; but your own posts were not "too combative" (a little screaming is hardly "too combative" when it comes to the internet ).
To make a successful argument it's not enough to scream (caps) "THE BIG S DOES NOT DESIGNATE NAND QUALITY". Her specific explanation of what it actually means, especially when fortified by the link she provided, are what me listen to her and not you.
If you were very combative, yelling and cussing and personally attacking me, but backing it up with the same explanation she gave. I would still have admitted you to be right... and then clicked on "report post".

The point I was trying to make is: I wasn't analyzing your personality from your posts; I was analyzing the argument you made.

 

[groberts101]

Fair enough tal. In my defense, it's pretty tough to not be somewhat combative in a sea of combatants. I'm one of the most down to earth types you'll come across, although I am very aggressive in nature which tends to skewe or paint my responses at times. I tend to be one of those friends people go to when they want honest opinions without much hot air involved. "From the hip".. I like to say.

You seem to be fair and not limited by the "herding of the masses" around here and I obviously jumped to conclusions and grouped you where you don't necessarily belong. Sorry bout' that and lesson learned.

 

[belladog]

Way to much noise here.
The S stamped on the SpecTek NAND is Spectek's logo. The S does not mean the NAND is out of spec.
http://www.spectek.com/menus/flash_main.aspx

The NAND seen the OWC blog has the SpecTek logo, and the NAND is seen as PF458 AL.

From SpecTek, the AL grade is "full spec with tighter requirements). In other words, not trash NAND.
http://www.spectek.com/pdfs/SpecTek_pns_Flash.pdf

Micron spot checks the complete wafer, and if for some reason it fails, they send the wafer to SpecTek. SpecTek then checks each chip on the wafer, and bins the chips accordingly. A few bad NAND chips on a wafer does NOT mean the individual NAND chips that passes as AL spec from SpecTeks tests is poor quality NAND.

This explanation is what OCZ is saying(well at least until they locked down the threads) but it answers NOTHING!! In fact, it confirms what OWC is saying that Micron rejected the nand to spectek who will use it for other purposes in low grade devices.

You are accepting OCZ response that Spectek Nand is as good as tier one nand BUT if it has the Spectek S it is NOT tier1 nand, period.

Spektec does not sell tier 1 nand, they never have, they never will.

The whole claim that "AL grade" is as good as micron tier1 nand is wrong. AL grade might be the best of tier2 specs, those specs dont compare to tier1 Micron nand.

If there was no truth in the OWC article, OCZ would have sent a legal notice to take the article down but the article is still up on their website. OCZ are now locking all threads and discussion on the matter.

OCZ have been caught out AGAIN ripping off its customers, less than a 6 weeks after the 25nm debacle.

I was a OCZ fanboy and a happy vertex 2 owner but we need to send a message to OCZ and other companies that pull these kind of stunts that they will not get away with it.

OCZ isnt the first company to pull this kind of stunt, we've seen it before with other components and if you support OCZ in this matter God help us, you are giving the green light for companies to make high performance parts for testing and reviews, then to go on and sell second rate devices to the masses.

The goal isnt to tear down OCZ, the goal is to send a message that this kind of dishonesty wont be tolerated especially when we're paying top dollar for an expensive SSD.

IF OCZ want to use spectek or other tier2 nand, thats fine but be transparent about it, rebrand the drive and pass on the savings instead of charging the same price for a very different product.

 

[autosax]

Hi belladog,

I totally agree with you.
My English is not good, you said what I want to say.

 

[taltamir]

This explanation is what OCZ is saying(well at least until they locked down the threads) but it answers NOTHING!! In fact, it confirms what OWC is saying that Micron rejected the nand to spectek who will use it for other purposes in low grade devices.

Not entirely; if I read it correctly it says that they found a defect in the uncut whole waffer. It works something like this:
1. IMFT makes a waffer
2. IMFT examines the waffer as a whole, if it looks good they cut it and prep it
3. IMFT rejects some waffers as a whole because they show some waffer wide defect, they pass those on to SpecTec
4. SpecTec cuts up the rejected waffer and tests the dies individually, rejecting or approving each one based on its own merit.

While its not "tier 1", its also not "tested to be out of spec NAND".

 

[belladog]

Hi belladog,

I totally agree with you.
My English is not good, you said what I want to say.

No problem.

@taltimir

I doubt it would have the micron logo if that was the case. A wafer of nand chips would be worth tens of thousands of dollars, i doubt Micron would reject a wafer unless there is very good reason.

Even if they could salvage only 10% they would because its still a lot of money....

Anyway, Its been a couple of days, the OWC article is still up, the OCZ forum staff have been told not to comment anymore and lock any threads on the matter.

You dont need to be an expert to see who is on the back foot.

 

[taltamir]

I doubt it would have the micron logo if that was the case. A wafer of nand chips would be worth tens of thousands of dollars, i doubt Micron would reject a wafer unless there is very good reason.

Even if they could salvage only 10% they would because its still a lot of money....

That is a good point. Those are chips, not die. A wafer is made up of die, the die are cut up and stacked vertically multiple die per chip. If they send rejected wafers to SpecTek then why is it already in a die with the micron logo? that doesn't make sense.

The pictures of spectek site have an S without the micron logo.

the OCZ forum staff have been told not to comment anymore and lock any threads on the matter.

You dont need to be an expert to see who is on the back foot.

That is rather suspicious. But if they were after silencing "the truth" it would make more sense for them to delete those threads or merge them into their answer thread rather then merely locking them.

 

[spooky69]

I think that is a good question regarding the logo, but the fact remains that OWC initially made it seem as if the 'S' meant that the NAND was designated as 'off-spec' and that they are only now saying that the 'S' means Spectek. Either OWC were not aware of this when they first posted their article or they were fully aware and were trying to mislead people. Either way, this sort of thing is not something that I like and it would actually put me off using OWC. If they found something that they thought was significant about a competitor's product then they should have found a way to let other people discover it and publicise it.

 

[taltamir]

IOWC initially made it seem as if the 'S' meant that the NAND was designated as 'off-spec' and that they are only now saying that the 'S' means Spectek.

Where does OWC say that? The OWC article remains unmodified in saying that S = off spec.
The "SpecTek" comes from Wendy, an anandtech user who posted about it in this thread and linked the specTek website, where we can see that their flash has that very same S logo (but no M logo)

 

[spooky69]

If you check the article on the OWC site you will find that there is an addition to the end of the article where the refer to Spectek.

 

[spooky69]

Oh, and the Spectek information was in the OCZ response that I linked to.

 

[taltamir]

it has been mentioned in the commends of OWC article that spectek is a division of micron.

 

[spooky69]

UPDATE 3/22/11

As we had several requests for additional images of the SpecTek flash memory to show it was absolutely genuine and unaltered by us, we’ve created this extensive gallery for your perusal:

This is above the picture gallery, which was also not in the article when it was first posted.

 

[autosax]

I think if other brands ( Corsair, G.SKILL) do the same thing, we will not suspect this kind of flash is good or not. This question becomes a mystery event. Gentleman, choose Intel or Micron will not have this issue. because they create Flash.

 

[belladog]

We can debate whether Spectek nand is the same or whatever but the bottom line is Spectek do not sell tier 1 nand.

If any of us decided to build SSD's to sell, the only companies that sell tier 1 nand are Micron, Intel, and the others i think are Toshiba and Samsung.

Why would OCZ take the risk with anything other than tier1- grade A nand? Probably money. Its much cheaper, but they are selling it under the same "vertex2" branding and charging the same price.

Thats wrong in my book. SSD's cost a fortune, we're paying for the highest quality nand so we should get what we payed for.

I think if other brands ( Corsair, G.SKILL) do the same thing,

I dont think that is true. OWC have said they have opened up drives from many other SSD makers and they all had tier1 nand.

OWC sell many SSD brands including their own Mercury but they said OCZ is the only company to do this.

Its worth noting too that Intel and Corsair have rebranded their 25nm drives so consumers know the performance is a little different than 34nm. OCZ tried to sneak in their 25nm under the same branding.

Other companies at least changed the part number but OCZ make it impossible to tell before you buy the drive.

 

[nutxo]

you seem to jump to conclusions pretty fast with very little info. maybe reread that once more?

Wendy said, what I was trying to tell you guys, in a much more non-combative way

hopefully the comma's help clarify the point :thumbsup:

Maybe, but she doesnt have a dog in this race like you seem to. http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/member.php?67077-groberts101

 

[Morg.]

I think if other brands ( Corsair, G.SKILL) do the same thing, we will not suspect this kind of flash is good or not. This question becomes a mystery event. Gentleman, choose Intel or Micron will not have this issue. because they create Flash.

Blah blah blah ... so you work for intel / micron or are a really naïve person, how sad.

In other news, Intel is not evil, they do not fight their competition with every possible mean, legal or illegal AND they will be giving out free gummy bears to everyone buying one of their crap ssd's .. Awesome !!!

Seriously, can someone explain to this guy (or ban him if he indeed is sponsored) that this is all a load of bull****

Besides, MLC NAND flash does not need to be perfect for an SSD to be perfect ... as the controller compensates, there's the extra headroom, etc.