The threat of godless ideologies

[illustri]

The saddest thing is, religion IS supposed to prevent wars... throughout existances all species have either fought themselves or others over the limited resources in their environment -- thats there will be conflicts between groups of any kind isn't surprising -- its just evolution.

But we as the self-described most civilized of animals on this planet had the capacity of creating and organising a belief structure which ignores the material resources on this planet in favor of the ethereal. Every single religion tells its believers: hey don't be assholes, don't kill your neighbor because hes got something shiny under his land, don't steal his stuff and hurt his loved ones... Don't worry about expanding your possessions in this life and you will be better rewarded in your next, or in heaven, or whatever the hell including hell you want to believe in.

I contend its not lack of religion in people want to worry about, but those who profess to be followers using the PERVERSION of the good ideas in their belief structures as divine approval stamps inked in blood.

 

[nageov3t]

wasn't Hitler a protestant?

IMO, ideology period is the cause of most world conflicts, from both the godless and the godfearing.

 

[Riprorin]

The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

Link

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Clearly Riprorin lives in a seperate reality than the rest of us.

Life under the bridge is pretty lonely.

 

[judasmachine]

How about my people? We were slaughtered, and destroyed by Christian/Capitalist bastards. And we are still being screwed out of every promise you people made. Your words are lies, your god is a myth, and now you claim to be the only good people on the planet? Please.... You too will die the death your lying tongue deserves.

Or.....

The fact that many Nazis proclaimed the Xtian faith. Or the former Yugoslavia where the muslims were being herded into camps.... You my friend are blinded by your faith.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Clearly Riprorin lives in a seperate reality than the rest of us.

Life under the bridge is pretty lonely.

Maybe if you behave, Rip can stop by your bridge and visit..

 

[miketheidiot]

this thread is silly.

 

[arsbanned]

warning. warning. this is another slippery slope argument by rip. It has more holes than swiss cheese.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Clearly Riprorin lives in a seperate reality than the rest of us.

Life under the bridge is pretty lonely.

Maybe if you behave, Rip can stop by your bridge and visit..

He still has all his friends, like yourself, to visit.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

These contradicting quotes make it obvious that Hitler probably didn't really believe in Christianity, but proclaimed to since it was convenient in his quest for power. What a strange idea that a politcal figure would use the opiate of the masses to gain power.

Does it really matter if he actually believed the Christian principles/propaganda he used to gain power? Do we really know that todays modern politicians truly believe in Christianity, or are they just using it's popularity for their own goals?

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: Zedtom
Is religious fundementalism the solution to the tragedies of the twentieth century?

nope, but rejection of secular humanism is one part of the solution.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: Zedtom
Is religious fundementalism the solution to the tragedies of the twentieth century?

nope, but rejection of secular humanism is one part of the solution.

As in Final Solution?

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: Zedtom
Is religious fundementalism the solution to the tragedies of the twentieth century?

nope, but rejection of secular humanism is one part of the solution.

As in Final Solution?

<sarcasm>yes, by killing everyone that disagrees with me.</sarcasm>
^forgeting those got me a 2 week vacation last time ^

by rejecting it as the foundation of our lives and the foundation of governmental policy. No one need die, majority just needs to rule.

 

[IndieSnob]

Ladies and Gentleman, here I present to you is the proof that Joe McCarthy is still alive. He will once again defeat all these damn heathen communist atheists for us! All praise him!

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 &amp; 7)

These contradicting quotes make it obvious that Hitler probably didn't really believe in Christianity, but proclaimed to since it was convenient in his quest for power. What a strange idea that a politcal figure would use the opiate of the masses to gain power.

Does it really matter if he actually believed the Christian principles/propaganda he used to gain power? Do we really know that todays modern politicians truly believe in Christianity, or are they just using it's popularity for their own goals?

True. Saddam was not a devote muslim and in fact was very secular and hated religious extremist. Of course that didn't stop him from pandering to other muslim nations via the religion card when he wanted their help. The fact is Hitler and the NAZI's saw religion as a tool to be used for their own uses. Take this NAZI oath of loyalty required to be pledged by all German officers after Hitler took control of Germany.

I swear by God this scared oath, that I will render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Fuhrer of the German Reich and people, supreme commander of the armed forces, and will be ready as a brave soldier to risk my life at any time for this oath.

( This quote can be found in the book "The Fall Of Berlin" by Anthony Read and David Fisher. It was pulled from chapter 12, page 30 of this book. )

The NAZI's used religion and if anyone refused to acknowledge their political agenda then their patriotism and in some cases their religious faith was publicly put into question and they were quietly whisked away. This is yet another example in history of what happens when church and state become one and end up sharing the same agendas whether it be by choice or not.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

Hitler was Christian (EDIT: or at least, claimed he was, in public). His politics were built on a platform of rabidly nationalistic &amp; xenophobic Christianity. The Catholic Church collaborated with the Nazis in the persecution of Jews. The Catholic Church stood by, did nothing, despite knowing of the Nazis' attacks on Jews.

See:

The Great Scandal: Christianity's Role in the Rise of the Nazis
http://www.secularhumanism.org...rary/fi/paul_23_4.html

Clip from article:

"A growing body of scholarly research, some based on careful analysis of Nazi records... reveals a convoluted pattern of religious and moral failure in which atheism and the nonreligious played little role, except as victims of the Nazis and their allies. In contrast, Christianity had the capacity to stop Nazism before it came to power, and to reduce or moderate its practices afterwards, but repeatedly failed to do so because the principal churches were complicit with?indeed, in the pay of?the Nazis."

 

[Taejin]

As the world passes you by, I hope you grow more and more bitter watching the inevitable march of logic and reason sweeping everyone within its inexorable grasp, disallowing the futility of brainwashing and indoctrination that is the core of your being.

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
How about my people? We were slaughtered, and destroyed by Christian/Capitalist bastards. And we are still being screwed out of every promise you people made. Your words are lies, your god is a myth, and now you claim to be the only good people on the planet? Please.... You too will die the death your lying tongue deserves.

Or.....

The fact that many Nazis proclaimed the Xtian faith. Or the former Yugoslavia where the muslims were being herded into camps.... You my friend are blinded by your faith.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Actually, to solve EVERY single problem today would be the deaths of approximately 4 billion people and ceasing population growth (2.1 children per female).

That will solve every single problem in the world. Name it, it is solved.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
The tragedies of the Twentieth Century were constructed upon atheism. The ideologues of fascism, Nazism, and communism believed that no force was higher than themselves or their fantastical utopian dreams.

Link

This is the best argument for a free, open, and democratic based society I have ever read. But it does not convince me that the US should be controlled by your religious organization or anyone else's religious organizations.

The world would be a less bloody and murderous place if everyone kept their religion to themselves.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Riprorin
You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

Hitler was a Christian. His politics were built on a platform of rabidly nationalistic &amp; xenophobic Christianity. The Catholic Church collaborated with the Nazis in the persecution of Jews. The catholic church stood by, did nothing, despite knowing of the Nazis' attacks on Jews.

See:

The Great Scandal: Christianity's Role in the Rise of the Nazis
http://www.secularhumanism.org...rary/fi/paul_23_4.html

Clip from article:

"A growing body of scholarly research, some based on careful analysis of Nazi records... reveals a convoluted pattern of religious and moral failure in which atheism and the nonreligious played little role, except as victims of the Nazis and their allies. In contrast, Christianity had the capacity to stop Nazism before it came to power, and to reduce or moderate its practices afterwards, but repeatedly failed to do so because the principal churches were complicit with?indeed, in the pay of?the Nazis."

yea the kind of Christian who demanded atheism of his people and a devout worship of Nordic Gods from his higher ups.

get this secular humanistic tripe out of here, passing off your religious propaganda as historical documentation to be used in an inflammatory way against someone else?s religion is pretty darned low.

Not to mention the almost infinite chasm between being religious and being Christian.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Riprorin
You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

Hitler was a Christian. His politics were built on a platform of rabidly nationalistic &amp; xenophobic Christianity. The Catholic Church collaborated with the Nazis in the persecution of Jews. The catholic church stood by, did nothing, despite knowing of the Nazis' attacks on Jews.

See:

The Great Scandal: Christianity's Role in the Rise of the Nazis
http://www.secularhumanism.org...rary/fi/paul_23_4.html

Clip from article:

"A growing body of scholarly research, some based on careful analysis of Nazi records... reveals a convoluted pattern of religious and moral failure in which atheism and the nonreligious played little role, except as victims of the Nazis and their allies. In contrast, Christianity had the capacity to stop Nazism before it came to power, and to reduce or moderate its practices afterwards, but repeatedly failed to do so because the principal churches were complicit with?indeed, in the pay of?the Nazis."

yea the kind of Christian who demanded atheism of his people and a devout worship of Nordic Gods from his higher ups.

get this secular humanistic tripe out of here, passing off your religious propaganda as historical documentation to be used in an inflammatory way against someone else?s religion is pretty darned low.

Not to mention the almost infinite chasm between being religious and being Christian.

If you think the following is propaganda, and is not historically accurate, then by all means, please provide evidence of that.

You are right, tho, this kind of historical information DOES need to be disseminated, so people don't get taken in by the likes of Riprorin.

Read on, learn something about the history of your religion:

http://www.secularhumanism.org...rary/fi/paul_23_4.html

"Apologists often suggest that Hitler did not hold a traditional belief in God because he believed that he was God. True, Hitler thought himself God?s chosen leader for the Aryan race. But he never claimed to be divine, and never presented himself in that manner to his followers. Members of the Wehrmacht swore this loyalty oath: ?I swear by God this holy oath to the Führer of the German Reich and the German people, Adolf Hitler.? For Schutzstaffel (S.S.) members it was: ?I pledge to you, Adolf Hitler, my obedience unto death, so help me God.?

Hitler repeatedly thanked God or Providence for his survival on the western front during the Great War, his safe escape from multiple assassination attempts, his seemingly miraculous rise from homelessness to influence and power, and his amazing international successes. He never tired of proclaiming that all of this was beyond the power of any mere mortal. Later in the war, Hitler portrayed German defeats as part of an epic test: God would reward his true chosen people with the final victory they deserved so long as they never gave up the struggle.

Reich iconography, too, reveals that Nazism never cut its ties to Christianity. The markings of Luftwaffe aircraft comprised just two swastikas?and six crosses. Likewise the Kreigsmarine (German Navy) flag combined the symbols. Hitler participated in public prayers and religious services at which the swastika and the cross were displayed together.

Hitler openly admired Martin Luther, whom he considered a brilliant reformer.19 Yet he said in several private conversations that he considered himself a Catholic. He said publicly on several occasions that Christ was his savior. As late as 1944, planning the last-ditch offensive the world would know as the Battle of the Bulge, he code-named it ?Operation Christrose.?

Among his Nazi cronies Hitler criticized the established churches harshly and often. Some of these alleged statements must be treated with skepticism,20 but clearly he viewed the traditional Christian faiths as weak and contaminated by Judaism. Still, there is no warrant for the claim that he became anti-Christian or antireligious after coming to power. No reliably attributed quote reveals Hitler to be an atheist or in any way sympathetic to atheism. On the contrary, he often condemned atheism, as he did Christians who collaborated with such atheistic forces as Bolshevism. He consistently denied that the state could replace faith and instructed Speer to include churches in his beloved plans for a rebuilt Berlin. The Nazi-era constitution explicitly evoked God. Calculating that his victories over Europe and Bolshevism would make him so popular that people would be willing to abandon their traditional faiths, Hitler entertained plans to replace Protestantism and Catholicism with a reformed Christian church that would include all Aryans while removing foreign (Rome-based) influence. German Protestants had already rejected a more modest effort along these lines, as will be seen below. How Germans as a whole would have received this reform after a Nazi victory is open to question. In any case, Hitler saw himself as Christianity?s ultimate reformer, not its dedicated enemy.

Hitler was a complex figure, but based on the available evidence we can conclude our inquiry into his personal religious convictions by describing him as an Aryan Volkist Christian who had deep Catholic roots, strongly influenced by Protestantism, touched by strands of neopaganism and Darwinism, and minimally influenced by the occult. Though Hitler pontificated about God and religion at great length, he considered politics more important than religion as the means to achieve his agenda.


http://www.secularhumanism.org...rary/fi/paul_23_4.html


Hitler was a madman, who believed he was doing God's work.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
get this secular humanistic tripe out of here, passing off your religious propaganda as historical documentation

Classic ad hominem logical fallacy. Don't address the points raised in that article I linked, discredit the author or source of the article instead. It's a sleazy way of changing the topic, a way of avoiding having to deal with facts you don't want to hear. Pathetic.

 

[stratman]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Riprorin
You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

Hitler was a Christian. His politics were built on a platform of rabidly nationalistic &amp; xenophobic Christianity. The Catholic Church collaborated with the Nazis in the persecution of Jews. The catholic church stood by, did nothing, despite knowing of the Nazis' attacks on Jews.

See:

The Great Scandal: Christianity's Role in the Rise of the Nazis
http://www.secularhumanism.org...rary/fi/paul_23_4.html

Clip from article:

"A growing body of scholarly research, some based on careful analysis of Nazi records... reveals a convoluted pattern of religious and moral failure in which atheism and the nonreligious played little role, except as victims of the Nazis and their allies. In contrast, Christianity had the capacity to stop Nazism before it came to power, and to reduce or moderate its practices afterwards, but repeatedly failed to do so because the principal churches were complicit with?indeed, in the pay of?the Nazis."

aidanjm, quoting from 'secularhumanism.org' to defend secularism is like quoting from 'christianfundamentals.com' (don't know if this is actually a site, this is just an analogy) to defend christianity. Or like rip quoting 'worldnet' (like he sometimes does ) or whatever that right-wing christian news is called.

It's a blatantly biased source, just like it's religious counterparts (worldnet, al-jazeera, et al.) The purpose of the piece, if you agree with it or not, is to prove that Hitler was a theist.

To demonstrate desperation and bias, let's take a look at the following quotes:
"Hitler repeatedly thanked God or Providence for his survival on the western front during the Great War"

EVERYONE I KNOW says 'thank god', christians and die-hard athiests alike. This is like saying "Hitler dabbled heavily in mysticism because he often thanked 'his lucky stars'. Why do they include this? Do they need filler? Do they not have enough legitimate material?

"He never tired of proclaiming that all of this was beyond the power of any mere mortal."

Oh, ok. So he must be a deist then.

"Hitler openly admired Martin Luther, whom he considered a brilliant reformer."

Now if you admire any deist (martin luther), you are also a deist? I admire many athiests, but I'm still a theist. Again, why include this in the piece as it has NO relevance to the issue?

I don't know whether Hitler believed in God or not, or whether he was a Christian or not. I do, though, have a tough time trusting the 'what-might-be-true's of the article, because of the weak points they include, and because of it's source.

 

[stratman]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 &amp; 7)

These contradicting quotes make it obvious that Hitler probably didn't really believe in Christianity, but proclaimed to since it was convenient in his quest for power. What a strange idea that a politcal figure would use the opiate of the masses to gain power.

Does it really matter if he actually believed the Christian principles/propaganda he used to gain power? Do we really know that todays modern politicians truly believe in Christianity, or are they just using it's popularity for their own goals?

This was a good post.