The threat of godless ideologies

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imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,607
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Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harvey, you may want to check this out:

July 6, 1945 - "The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches"

Hitler was clearly looking to eliminate Christianity.

Rip, you don't really believe everything you read do you? Well, I guess only the conservative stuff right? You're totally misrepresenting what happened in Germany. You make it sound like Germany was a rich and prospoerous nation that let it go to their evil heads. The Nazi's came to power largely due to the economic crises the country was undergoing.

How can anyone take you serious. You're a nut. I'm a christian and I can see that. Yeah, we get some heat here as chrsitians but that doesn't bother me as much as the awful rhetoric those that claim to be christian espouse in return. We're suppose to live our lives as an example to others.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harvey, you may want to check this out:

July 6, 1945 - "The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches"

Hitler was clearly looking to eliminate Christianity.

He was apparently looking to amalgamate certain branches of Christianity. But whatever. Even if he WAS looking to "eliminate Christianity" then so fvcking what? What exactly do you think that would prove???? How do you account for the fact that large numbers of Christians ENTHUSIASTICALLY EMBRACED Nazi ideology, and actually believed that Christianity and Nazi ideology were in perfect harmony? How do you explain the fact that the Vatican, and many Christian religious figures in Germany did almost nothing to oppse Hitler, EVEN WHEN they became aware of Hitler's policies of "genetic purification" and persecution of Jews???????? SOME Christians DID actively oppose Hitler's agenda, but a large number of Christians, many who occupied powerful positions in government, enthusiastically embraced Hitler's agenda, and saw no incompatibility betweenChristianity and Nazi ideology. If you think christianity is a bulwark against brutality, then WHY didn't German Christians (and the Vatican) do more to oppose Hitler's rise??? Why did most of them sit on their asses, or even EMBRACE Hitler's noxious ideology?

Am I allowed to call someone a moron on these forums, or is that "flaming"?

 

imported_hscorpio

Golden Member
Sep 1, 2004
1,617
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Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harvey, a lot of the venom I see from the left here is directed at those who espouse Christian belief, regardless of the fact that those who have killed in Christ's name are clearly acting contrary to His life and teachings.

I find it interesting that the slaughter of 6 million Jews occured in the most educated nation of the time in a land that gave birth to the Enlightment. It just shows what man is capable of when he elevates himself and his domineering will and attempts to live without God.

That's my observation anyway.


How do you believe that the Nazi supporting Germans were Godless? It looks more like the Nazi's effectively fused their propaganda with the Christian messages and believed God was on their side.

Also Hitler may have been trying to eliminate church power because he wanted to be the church and the state. He wanted all the power for himself. But his public speeches and actions clearly show that he was trying to portray himself as a christian doing the work of God.

Show me where he ever held a rally calling for the people to abandon Christianity and become atheists. Did he ever publicly advocate atheism?
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
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Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: IndieSnob
You keep talking time periods here Rip, as to say that christians have come along way while seculars still continue to murder to this day. Face it, every religion has commited attrocities. I also find it sick how you cheapen every person murdered by making it christianity versus every other religion/non religion. It's just as digusting no matter what side does it. I suppose you'll thumb your nose at this as you want to continue to tout your deity and his followers as such great clean living people. Every sides sh!t stinks, even yours. To be blind to this is just being ignorant.

Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?


I DON'T GIVE TWO CRAPS ABOUT WHO HAS KILLED MORE THAN THE OTHER!

See, again you you absolutely have to compare camp a to camp b. I think if atheists only killed 1 more person throughout history then beleivers in god you would still say it's a greater evil. Again, you pull any info you can whether it's factual or not so you can cast your little religous vendetta. Is this the porpouse God gave you for being on this Earth? To continue to pull links and numbers our of your rear end so you can feel better about your belief? Are you now going to bring up links that say blacks in proportion to whites commit more crimes? It'd be the same misleading crap.

Why can't atheists generate the same level of contempt for murder and violence committed by some of the irreligious than they can for those who claim to be relgious?

I find that interesting.[/quote]

You seem to now be completely ignoring what Hitler did in the name of Christianity and then you bitch that nonreligious people show no contempt for the violence of other anti-religious officials. I've never seen someone more ignorant.

Furthermore, Stalin and the like did not commit murder in the name of atheism; that was just a means to an end. Like religious despots, they committed murder in the name of power. You can give some sort of deluded reason for it but when it comes down to it it was just plain lust for power. All despots like Stalin, Khamenei, Hitler, etc. thrive on one thing: full out submission from the general public. It doesn't matter if this comes because of religion or without it, the end result is still the same. For some reason you can't seem to get that into your head.

You can post all the BS links you want and others can post all the links they want; it doesn't matter. Plain historical articles will never get through the true reasons for their use or persecution of religion, simply because almost all of them never publicly told their true intentions. Which makes sense--how many people would have followed Hitler had he told people that he wanted to take away their freedoms and also kill millions of people?
 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
get this secular humanistic tripe out of here, passing off your religious propaganda as historical documentation

Classic ad hominem logical fallacy. Don't address the points raised in that article I linked, discredit the author or source of the article instead. It's a sleazy way of changing the topic, a way of avoiding having to deal with facts you don't want to hear. Pathetic.

no, the historical record is immutable, arguing against every reputable historian in an attempt to support your relegious belifes just not something that i have to respond to. Thinking individuals can look at your tripe and look at the facts and come to a real conclusion.

did you know that Hitler, along with being "Christian" actually bowed knee to the Nordic gods? that he was a methamphetamine addict and that he thought of himself as the fourth coming of gangis Kahn?

he was crazy, smart, but crazy, and trying to call what he did Christianity is like seeing a guy who says he's gay kill and eat his parents and then say "that?s gays for you"
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
get this secular humanistic tripe out of here, passing off your religious propaganda as historical documentation

Classic ad hominem logical fallacy. Don't address the points raised in that article I linked, discredit the author or source of the article instead. It's a sleazy way of changing the topic, a way of avoiding having to deal with facts you don't want to hear. Pathetic.

no, the historical record is immutable, arguing against every reputable historian in an attempt to support your relegious belifes just not something that i have to respond to. Thinking individuals can look at your tripe and look at the facts and come to a real conclusion.

did you know that Hitler, along with being "Christian" actually bowed knee to the Nordic gods? that he was a methamphetamine addict and that he thought of himself as the fourth coming of gangis Kahn?

he was crazy, smart, but crazy, and trying to call what he did Christianity is like seeing a guy who says he's gay kill and eat his parents and then say "that?s gays for you"
exactly, same goes when someone claims athiest are responsible for most deaths and thats athiests for you

an utterly idiotic argument
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
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Commmunism/Fascism/Christianity/Judaism are all faces of the same evil: COLLECTIVISM. The destroyer among men is NOT the Individual Rights, Pro-liberty ideology of the Secular world, it is the Pro FAITH, ANTI-REASON extremism of Collectivist ideology in all its many faces.

What destroys men is the ABANDONMENT of REASON in favor of FAITH.

What destroys men is the willingness to BELIEVE rather than to DISCOVER and LEARN.

What destroys men is the idea of SAFETY held in higher regard than the idea of FREEDOM.

In Communism your FAITH is placed in the "Community" and regulated by the state. You hold that a man belongs to his brothers.

In Fascism your FAITH is placed in the state for the sake of the Society. You hold that a man belongs to the state.

In Judeo Christian Mythology your FAITH is placed in an invisible "God" for his own purposes. You hold that a man belongs to GOD.

In SECULAR ideology you reject absolute Faith in favor of REASON.

In SECULAR ideology you hold that man has RIGHTS which are inherent in his natural condition.

In SECULAR ideology you trust that YOU have the capacity to run your own life for your own happiness.

In SECULAR ideology you hold that a man belongs TO HIMSELF, that he is AN END IN HIMSELF, that his rights exist INDEPENDENT of other men, that by the fact of his nature as a RATIONAL creature man has a NATURAL RIGHT to be free to make his own choices and to benefit or suffer from the consequences of those choices.

You can place your faith in whatever you want, I'll choose LIBERTY.



What I find interesting is how you Judeo Christian moral slackards can read in the old testament how TIME AND AGAIN your GOD slaughters people INCLUDING innocents and yet you are unwilling to condemn him as the EVIL GOD he is. You can read all about how he treated Job as a mere PLAYTHING to be tortured, cursed, robbed, his family murdered and yet he stood by and WATCHED, yet you have not the moral fortitude to declare that GOD behaved in an IMMORAL, EVIL way. He acted WITHOUT regard to the rights of Job, and yet you think this is OK?

And as for Job himself, that MORAL COWARD who cowed down and accepted God's will upon him, accepted his own guilt when he had done NOTHING WRONG, where are your cries of contempt for he who refused to even stand up for his RIGHTS when he was being horribly WRONGED.

It's simple to answer, really: Because you act and believe on a moral DOUBLE STANDARD by which ANYTHING that your God does, no matter how horrific, no matter how EVIL, is ALWAYS justified, but man has to "answer" for his "sins".

You are EXACTLY the kind of person who makes tyranny possible, EXACTLY the kind of person who would stand by and let your king/president/God slaughter innocents by the MILLIONS, you'd even HELP him, because you believe that whatever he does is RIGHT.

"What you need now is not to RETURN to morality, you who have never known any; what you need now is to DISCOVER morality."






Who cares if you think the Christian GOD, the GOD of the bible is fair or moral or discriminating or evil. He doesnt answer to you.

This is the same God who in the old testament took a small tribe of people and made them into a nation. Told them to invade lands and kill all the people in them and take all their possessions, and then inhabit the land. Called them to destroy anything that opposed their beliefs. So what?

When you die and you stand before the all powerful, all knowing, and pissed off GOD...and he says "You did not follow my commands, Go to Hell" What are you going to say to him? "I'm an aethiest and you dont exist!" Are you a god yourself that you can stop him? He wont be interested in your pathetic little excuses, you're either for him or against him. Thats all that matters. you have a choice to make...either you do what he says or not.

The point is when the chips fall down... when armageddon happens and the world is destroyed.... fair or unfair... be a true follower with the most powerful GOD in the universe, or end up with all the rest of those who oppose him in hell where he puts you. Who is going to stop him? YOU?







 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
1,544
0
0
Originally posted by: sao123
Commmunism/Fascism/Christianity/Judaism are all faces of the same evil: COLLECTIVISM. The destroyer among men is NOT the Individual Rights, Pro-liberty ideology of the Secular world, it is the Pro FAITH, ANTI-REASON extremism of Collectivist ideology in all its many faces.

What destroys men is the ABANDONMENT of REASON in favor of FAITH.

What destroys men is the willingness to BELIEVE rather than to DISCOVER and LEARN.

What destroys men is the idea of SAFETY held in higher regard than the idea of FREEDOM.

In Communism your FAITH is placed in the "Community" and regulated by the state. You hold that a man belongs to his brothers.

In Fascism your FAITH is placed in the state for the sake of the Society. You hold that a man belongs to the state.

In Judeo Christian Mythology your FAITH is placed in an invisible "God" for his own purposes. You hold that a man belongs to GOD.

In SECULAR ideology you reject absolute Faith in favor of REASON.

In SECULAR ideology you hold that man has RIGHTS which are inherent in his natural condition.

In SECULAR ideology you trust that YOU have the capacity to run your own life for your own happiness.

In SECULAR ideology you hold that a man belongs TO HIMSELF, that he is AN END IN HIMSELF, that his rights exist INDEPENDENT of other men, that by the fact of his nature as a RATIONAL creature man has a NATURAL RIGHT to be free to make his own choices and to benefit or suffer from the consequences of those choices.

You can place your faith in whatever you want, I'll choose LIBERTY.



What I find interesting is how you Judeo Christian moral slackards can read in the old testament how TIME AND AGAIN your GOD slaughters people INCLUDING innocents and yet you are unwilling to condemn him as the EVIL GOD he is. You can read all about how he treated Job as a mere PLAYTHING to be tortured, cursed, robbed, his family murdered and yet he stood by and WATCHED, yet you have not the moral fortitude to declare that GOD behaved in an IMMORAL, EVIL way. He acted WITHOUT regard to the rights of Job, and yet you think this is OK?

And as for Job himself, that MORAL COWARD who cowed down and accepted God's will upon him, accepted his own guilt when he had done NOTHING WRONG, where are your cries of contempt for he who refused to even stand up for his RIGHTS when he was being horribly WRONGED.

It's simple to answer, really: Because you act and believe on a moral DOUBLE STANDARD by which ANYTHING that your God does, no matter how horrific, no matter how EVIL, is ALWAYS justified, but man has to "answer" for his "sins".

You are EXACTLY the kind of person who makes tyranny possible, EXACTLY the kind of person who would stand by and let your king/president/God slaughter innocents by the MILLIONS, you'd even HELP him, because you believe that whatever he does is RIGHT.

"What you need now is not to RETURN to morality, you who have never known any; what you need now is to DISCOVER morality."






Who cares if you think the Christian GOD, the GOD of the bible is fair or moral or discriminating or evil. He doesnt answer to you.

This is the same God who in the old testament took a small tribe of people and made them into a nation. Told them to invade lands and kill all the people in them and take all their possessions, and then inhabit the land. Called them to destroy anything that opposed their beliefs. So what?

When you die and you stand before the all powerful, all knowing, and pissed off GOD...and he says "You did not follow my commands, Go to Hell" What are you going to say to him? "I'm an aethiest and you dont exist!" Are you a god yourself that you can stop him? He wont be interested in your pathetic little excuses, you're either for him or against him. Thats all that matters. you have a choice to make...either you do what he says or not.

The point is when the chips fall down... when armageddon happens and the world is destroyed.... fair or unfair... be a true follower with the most powerful GOD in the universe, or end up with all the rest of those who oppose him in hell where he puts you. Who is going to stop him? YOU?


rofl - you are rediculous man - anyone from any other religion could make the same argument to you so essentially your chances are the same regardless of which religion you choose to follow. from a 3rd person perspective you sound quite silly.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: sao123



Who cares if you think the Christian GOD, the GOD of the bible is fair or moral or discriminating or evil. He doesnt answer to you.

This is the same God who in the old testament took a small tribe of people and made them into a nation. Told them to invade lands and kill all the people in them and take all their possessions, and then inhabit the land. Called them to destroy anything that opposed their beliefs. So what?

When you die and you stand before the all powerful, all knowing, and pissed off GOD...and he says "You did not follow my commands, Go to Hell" What are you going to say to him? "I'm an aethiest and you dont exist!" Are you a god yourself that you can stop him? He wont be interested in your pathetic little excuses, you're either for him or against him. Thats all that matters. you have a choice to make...either you do what he says or not.

The point is when the chips fall down... when armageddon happens and the world is destroyed.... fair or unfair... be a true follower with the most powerful GOD in the universe, or end up with all the rest of those who oppose him in hell where he puts you. Who is going to stop him? YOU?
Ah the fanatical mindset of a whacked out Fund A Mental Case:shocked::laugh:
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: sao123
Who cares if you think the Christian GOD, the GOD of the bible is fair or moral or discriminating or evil. He doesnt answer to you.
Isn't that something special? Here's a clue. I don't answer to your fantasy deity anymore than it answers to me.

You're entitled to believe what you want, but AFIC, religion is a just another political structure based on ignorance and fear of some imaginary wrathful god and fear of others.

What a pile of crap! :disgust:
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
What destroys men is the ABANDONMENT of FAITH in favor of REASON.

What destroys men is the urge to to DISCOVER and LEARN rather than to BELIEVE.

What destroys men is the idea of KNOWLEGDE &amp; WEALTH held in higher regard than the idea of SELF DENIAL for the purpose of EXAULTING GOD.

What destroys men is the idea of EARTHLY FREEDOM held in higher regard than the idea of ETERNAL REWARD.

In Secularism your FAITH is placed in yourself. You hold that you are in control of your own destiny and no OMNIPOTENT BEING or HIGHER POWER exists, because you can not find, measure, touch, or prove his existance through any means within the comprehension of the MORTAL MIND.

You can place your faith in whatever you want, I'll choose GOD.



In your quest for knowledge never forget the evil tree in the garden of eden was the tree of knowledge, not the tree of life. Since that point, man has forever persued the quest of knowledge and wealth, instead of eternal life with God.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: sao123
What destroys men is the ABANDONMENT of FAITH in favor of REASON.

What destroys men is the urge to to DISCOVER and LEARN rather than to BELIEVE.

What destroys men is the idea of KNOWLEGDE &amp; WEALTH held in higher regard than the idea of SELF DENIAL for the purpose of EXAULTING GOD.

What destroys men is the idea of EARTHLY FREEDOM held in higher regard than the idea of ETERNAL REWARD.

In Secularism your FAITH is placed in yourself. You hold that you are in control of your own destiny and no OMNIPOTENT BEING or HIGHER POWER exists, because you can not find, measure, touch, or prove his existance through any means within the comprehension of the MORTAL MIND.

You can place your faith in whatever you want, I'll choose GOD.



In your quest for knowledge never forget the evil tree in the garden of eden was the tree of knowledge, not the tree of life. Since that point, man has forever persued the quest of knowledge and wealth, instead of eternal life with God.

:roll::roll::roll::roll:
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
1,544
0
0
Originally posted by: sao123
What destroys men is the ABANDONMENT of FAITH in favor of REASON.

What destroys men is the urge to to DISCOVER and LEARN rather than to BELIEVE.

What destroys men is the idea of KNOWLEGDE &amp; WEALTH held in higher regard than the idea of SELF DENIAL for the purpose of EXAULTING GOD.

What destroys men is the idea of EARTHLY FREEDOM held in higher regard than the idea of ETERNAL REWARD.

In Secularism your FAITH is placed in yourself. You hold that you are in control of your own destiny and no OMNIPOTENT BEING or HIGHER POWER exists, because you can not find, measure, touch, or prove his existance through any means within the comprehension of the MORTAL MIND.

You can place your faith in whatever you want, I'll choose GOD.



In your quest for knowledge never forget the evil tree in the garden of eden was the tree of knowledge, not the tree of life. Since that point, man has forever persued the quest of knowledge and wealth, instead of eternal life with God.


I really hope you are intelligent enough to realize how much of a catch-22 your argument at the end is.

On another line of thought....

You are painting this very black and white. I think it's quite possible to be spiritual and secular at the same time. I can beleive in a higher power and not conform to any religion and still have all the attributes (REASON, DISCOVER and LEARN, KNOWLEGDE &amp; WEALTH, EARTHLY FREEDOM) that you seem to consider negative. Putting your faith in God is fine - putting your faith in the hands of an organization or in some words that flawed men wrote down thousands of years ago (or maybe only 100s of years ago for Mormans) is very risky indeed. If there is an afterlife I have FAITH that anyone who has made an effort to lead a good life should and will be rewarded. All these small rules (going to church, hail mary's, no meat on this day or that day) should seem incredibly insignificant to an entity who created all that is. Science and faith can coexist quite nicely for a positive effect.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
You are painting this very black and white. I think it's quite possible to be spiritual and secular at the same time.

Membership in any group of individuals has a select group of quantified criteria. Sounds very black and white to me. You are either in or out, you cant be halfway. The bible says
?I [one like a Son of Man] know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot. So, because you are luke-warm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth. For you say, ?I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing.? You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked? (Rev 3:15-17 [NRSV]).


I can beleive in a higher power and not conform to any religion and still have all the attributes (REASON, DISCOVER and LEARN, KNOWLEGDE &amp; WEALTH, EARTHLY FREEDOM) that you seem to consider negative. Putting your faith in God is fine - putting your faith in the hands of an organization or in some words that flawed men wrote down thousands of years ago (or maybe only 100s of years ago for Mormans) is very risky indeed.

I do not put my faith in some church or denomination. I put my faith only in GOD &amp; the Bible - the true and living word of God.


If there is an afterlife I have FAITH that anyone who has made an effort to lead a good life should and will be rewarded. All these small rules (going to church, hail mary's, no meat on this day or that day) should seem incredibly insignificant to an entity who created all that is.

There are rules that were written in the bible(do not kill, do not steal, etc). And there were rules that were created by the church(going to church, hail mary's, no meat on this day or that day).
Only what is written in the bible are the only rules that matter. And thus written in the bible... only those who confess their sin and believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died on the cross to forgive sin and was raised again on the third day will inherit the kingdom of God.


Science and faith can coexist quite nicely for a positive effect.
the problem with science is secularists use it to try to bring discredit to God. They give credit to the void. The random accident of the big-bang creating the universe. Man evolving from primitive life forms instead of everything being created of God.




 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: sao123
What destroys men is the ABANDONMENT of FAITH in favor of REASON.

What destroys men is the urge to to DISCOVER and LEARN rather than to BELIEVE.

What destroys men is the idea of KNOWLEGDE &amp; WEALTH held in higher regard than the idea of SELF DENIAL for the purpose of EXAULTING GOD.

What destroys men is the idea of EARTHLY FREEDOM held in higher regard than the idea of ETERNAL REWARD.

In Secularism your FAITH is placed in yourself. You hold that you are in control of your own destiny and no OMNIPOTENT BEING or HIGHER POWER exists, because you can not find, measure, touch, or prove his existance through any means within the comprehension of the MORTAL MIND.

You can place your faith in whatever you want, I'll choose GOD.



In your quest for knowledge never forget the evil tree in the garden of eden was the tree of knowledge, not the tree of life. Since that point, man has forever persued the quest of knowledge and wealth, instead of eternal life with God.
WHAT A CROCK!!! :frown: I'll take reasoned conclusions drawn from obverved evidence over some ooga booga mythology any day.
Stupid people should not be allowed to post in the highly technical forum.
By that reasoning, closed minded dogmatists should not be allowed to post in a P&amp;N. < hint > < hint > :beer:
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
1,544
0
0
Originally posted by: sao123
You are painting this very black and white. I think it's quite possible to be spiritual and secular at the same time.

Membership in any group of individuals has a select group of quantified criteria. Sounds very black and white to me. You are either in or out, you cant be halfway. The bible says
?I [one like a Son of Man] know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot. So, because you are luke-warm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth. For you say, ?I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing.? You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked? (Rev 3:15-17 [NRSV]).


I can beleive in a higher power and not conform to any religion and still have all the attributes (REASON, DISCOVER and LEARN, KNOWLEGDE &amp; WEALTH, EARTHLY FREEDOM) that you seem to consider negative. Putting your faith in God is fine - putting your faith in the hands of an organization or in some words that flawed men wrote down thousands of years ago (or maybe only 100s of years ago for Mormans) is very risky indeed.

I do not put my faith in some church or denomination. I put my faith only in GOD &amp; the Bible - the true and living word of God.


If there is an afterlife I have FAITH that anyone who has made an effort to lead a good life should and will be rewarded. All these small rules (going to church, hail mary's, no meat on this day or that day) should seem incredibly insignificant to an entity who created all that is.

There are rules that were written in the bible(do not kill, do not steal, etc). And there were rules that were created by the church(going to church, hail mary's, no meat on this day or that day).
Only what is written in the bible are the only rules that matter. And thus written in the bible... only those who confess their sin and believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died on the cross to forgive sin and was raised again on the third day will inherit the kingdom of God.


Science and faith can coexist quite nicely for a positive effect.
the problem with science is secularists use it to try to bring discredit to God. They give credit to the void. The random accident of the big-bang creating the universe. Man evolving from primitive life forms instead of everything being created of God.


There is really no point in arguing I guess since you can't argue logic with the illogical. If everyone thought like you we'd still be in the dark ages - God be praised that's not the case.
 

racolvin

Golden Member
Jul 26, 2004
1,254
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
... a lot of the venom I see from the left here is directed at those who espouse Christian belief, regardless of the fact that those who have killed in Christ's name are clearly acting contrary to His life and teachings.

It seems to me your perception of venom is misplaced. The venom is not directed at christian beliefs in themselves. The venom is directed at people who would try to use their christian beliefs to control my life, when I do not necessarily share those beliefs. Further, the venom is directed at the self-righteous way some christians (or any other religion really, not limited to christianity) try to claim they are the ones who are "right" and everyone else is misguided, deluded, or just plain wrong.

It just shows what man is capable of when he elevates himself and his domineering will and attempts to live without God. That's my observation anyway.

Attempt to live without god? You make the assumption that your version of god actually exists, something you cannot prove to the rest of us. Further, you insult every other religion by supposing that your version of god exists to the exclusion of their version, when neither can truly be proven one way or another. It is precisely that kind of attitude that brings the venom you seem to be so shocked by. The presumption of your beliefs and position being the only valid one is insulting to the rest of the community, so you cannot be shocked that they respond with vitriol.

R

 

Centinel

Senior member
Dec 21, 2004
409
0
0
Originally posted by: racolvin
It seems to me your perception of venom is misplaced. The venom is not directed at christian beliefs in themselves. The venom is directed at people who would try to use their christian beliefs to control my life, when I do not necessarily share those beliefs. Further, the venom is directed at the self-righteous way some christians (or any other religion really, not limited to christianity) try to claim they are the ones who are "right" and everyone else is misguided, deluded, or just plain wrong.

I agree with everything you said except this part....now, it does occur.....but this also occurs from the atheists as well, and from the left in general to some degree....just exchange "christian" with "atheist" or "secular".

Two wrongs definately dont make a right.

 

racolvin

Golden Member
Jul 26, 2004
1,254
0
0
Originally posted by: Centinel
Originally posted by: racolvin
It seems to me your perception of venom is misplaced. The venom is not directed at christian beliefs in themselves. The venom is directed at people who would try to use their christian beliefs to control my life, when I do not necessarily share those beliefs. Further, the venom is directed at the self-righteous way some christians (or any other religion really, not limited to christianity) try to claim they are the ones who are "right" and everyone else is misguided, deluded, or just plain wrong.

I agree with everything you said except this part....now, it does occur.....but this also occurs from the atheists as well, and from the left in general to some degree....just exchange "christian" with "atheist" or "secular".

Two wrongs definately dont make a right.


Oh there are those types on both sides, no question. It is possible to be so convinced you're right that you try like a rabid version of Don Quixote to change hearts and minds. If tilting at windmills is what he wishes to do, that's fine by me as long as I don't get trampled in the process

R
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
1,544
0
0
Originally posted by: Centinel
Originally posted by: racolvin
It seems to me your perception of venom is misplaced. The venom is not directed at christian beliefs in themselves. The venom is directed at people who would try to use their christian beliefs to control my life, when I do not necessarily share those beliefs. Further, the venom is directed at the self-righteous way some christians (or any other religion really, not limited to christianity) try to claim they are the ones who are "right" and everyone else is misguided, deluded, or just plain wrong.

I agree with everything you said except this part....now, it does occur.....but this also occurs from the atheists as well, and from the left in general to some degree....just exchange "christian" with "atheist" or "secular".

Two wrongs definately dont make a right.

left, right, atheist, jew, christian, etc.

A lot of people try to impose their views on others. It's a tricky balance but often times the "atheist" way of "controlling" people's lives is the least offensive. I'm personally not offended by any non-intrusive relegion related things happening in public places but it's all or nothing. You either have to let everyone do their thing (which is sometimes hard) or have nothing at all (often easier). I'm glad some poeple here can have an intelligent conversation and not tell me I'm going to hell, etc. Good show!
 

Spamela

Diamond Member
Oct 30, 2000
3,859
0
76
Originally posted by: sao123
You are painting this very black and white. I think it's quite possible to be spiritual and secular at the same time.

Membership in any group of individuals has a select group of quantified criteria. Sounds very black and white to me. You are either in or out, you cant be halfway. The bible says
?I [one like a Son of Man] know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot. So, because you are luke-warm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth. For you say, ?I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing.? You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked? (Rev 3:15-17 [NRSV]).


I can beleive in a higher power and not conform to any religion and still have all the attributes (REASON, DISCOVER and LEARN, KNOWLEGDE &amp; WEALTH, EARTHLY FREEDOM) that you seem to consider negative. Putting your faith in God is fine - putting your faith in the hands of an organization or in some words that flawed men wrote down thousands of years ago (or maybe only 100s of years ago for Mormans) is very risky indeed.

I do not put my faith in some church or denomination. I put my faith only in GOD &amp; the Bible - the true and living word of God.


If there is an afterlife I have FAITH that anyone who has made an effort to lead a good life should and will be rewarded. All these small rules (going to church, hail mary's, no meat on this day or that day) should seem incredibly insignificant to an entity who created all that is.

There are rules that were written in the bible(do not kill, do not steal, etc). And there were rules that were created by the church(going to church, hail mary's, no meat on this day or that day).
Only what is written in the bible are the only rules that matter. And thus written in the bible... only those who confess their sin and believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died on the cross to forgive sin and was raised again on the third day will inherit the kingdom of God.


Science and faith can coexist quite nicely for a positive effect.
the problem with science is secularists use it to try to bring discredit to God. They give credit to the void. The random accident of the big-bang creating the universe. Man evolving from primitive life forms instead of everything being created of God.


i can see that ATPN is going to need a tambourine icon.
 

Netopia

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,793
4
81
OK... I confess that I get bored about half way through page one.

How about we see which of these is true:

Which has killed more people...

Governments which have strictly adhered to the TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST (and are therefore "measurably Christian) or countries which have adhered strictly to the teaching that there IS NO GOD? I think that while you'll find that the latter are responsible for tens of millions of deaths, you'll find that there actually isn't any example of the former even existing. If you want to talk about "religion" being behind killing, I think you'd better be honest and say "religious groups which have twisted true religion" instead. Big difference.

BTW... there are no "Christian Countries" other than loosely culturally. Christianity is a personal situation and cannot by its be used to control a nation since that is not what it is all about. That would be like trying to steer a car with the clutch. The clutch is a very important and necessary part of the car, but it has to be used for the correct purpose to be of any use.

Joe
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

110,000,000, you dunce. Replace "God" with "The Community" and you end up with Communism. Either involves a surrender of your will to a central authority. FAITH is FAITH, whether it's vested in the state or the Invisible Man in the Sky.

FAITH kills. Only REASON can save you.

Jason
 
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